Told by christian friend that my lifelong depression is because I don’t “know Jesus”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s a cop out answer, OP. Easier than offering you help in ways that might give you more time to go to therapy, exercise, et al. She could make a few healthy meals and drop off, or watch your kids for a few hours.

Do you really believe that a few healthy meals can help with clinical depression? OP said she has been in therapy for years. Few more sessions will not make a difference.

And finding Jesus will make a difference?

Some people continue learning from therapy and should not drop it because of a stranger on the internet or a friend pushing a religious cure.

Yes. Finding Jesus does make a difference. Bonus - it costs way less than any therapy!

You are part of the problem.

You are funny. OP's problem don't come from people who live happy and content life. OP's problems come from people like you who convinced that living with depression is normal. Your soul is like a jar, it cannot remain empty. If you don't fill it in with a light, it will be filled with a darkness. And to fill it with the light, you have to take action. The good thing is that OP has the choice of how to fill it.

I sort of agree with that. If all the therapists and medications and treatments have failed? If you have struggled with depression your entire life, tried every possible treatment and multiple medications, had many different psychiatric interventions, and modern treatments and medications have failed you?

You can’t just stay in the dark of depression your entire life. Try something different. You have to try, for yourself and your loved ones.

It’s gross to suggest a person suffers for decades and dies in mental agony and doesn’t try to live a better quality of life for their own happiness.

So, what the hell, OP-- try religion. and if that doesn't work, too bad - Christians will tell you that you just need to keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are speaking for Christians in the absence of the need to do so. I have two suggestions, that either your parents either neglected to teach you, or you were taught, but refuse to abide by:

1. Don’t generalize, especially about people, especially about their deeply held, deeply personal beliefs

2. Don’t speak for a person, or group of people. Let people speak for themselves.

I choose to believe your parents taught you these lessons, and you just need a simple reminder to implement them to be a kind, socially responsible citizen.

No simple reminder needed. Just keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are toxic. You speak for Christianity when you are not a Christian. You think I need your permission to worship Jesus and His Salvation is a joke? Why do you care how I or anyone else conducts their worship and faith in America- a place founded on complete religious freedom?

There are so many toxic posters here who cannot accept religious freedom is a huge part of being an American. It’s good we can worship as we wish. It makes us the envy of the world.

I believe Americans who are so un-American as to not believe in freedom of religion and do not tolerate freedom of religion should either learn to be respectful of our laws and values and morals, or find a new home in a country that limits the expression and freedom of religion, so they can live peaceful and happy lives.

Google the countries that restrict religion and religious practices and go there…you won’t have to live in a country with religious freedom. It would be better than spending your life obsessively watching religious people, telling religious people their faith is wrong, and speaking for the Christianity you despise so deeply.

It’s very sad to live your life hating something (Christianity) so much. It will be very hard for you your entire life, because religious freedom is not going away. We will continue to worship, pray, speak about our faith, and shine brightly as lights representing God in our communities.

As the saying goes, sucks to be you, but I’d never say that to you seriously. I believe your anger and obsessive hostility and venom against Christianity and Christians comes from irrational fear, self-loathing, and hatred for yourself. No one can hate other people without cause without self-hatred.

So when you post such uncalled for and hateful things, I know it’s coming from a bitter and angry and scared place of self-hatred. Prayers to you. Jesus will save you, too.

Wow - talk about anger and hostility! Two simple sentences encouraging belief inspire paragraphs of attack language. It's so unlike Christ that it's hard to believe an actual Christian would say such things.

You aren’t serious, just trolling because looking in the mirror hurts.

pp must not be a good Christian. A good Christian would not say such hateful things. Even to a stranger on the Internet.

There are no good Christians.

You are a hateful and bigoted anti-theist. An atheist simply doesn’t believe or care about religion or God. Anti-theists actively and obsessively hate religion, religious people, etc.

So tell me, are there good Jewish people? Good Muslim people? Are any religious people good?

That’s not a real post and you know it. Don’t feed the trolls.

I see many posts here claiming that religion, religious people, Christianity specifically, is bad. That Christianity and Christians are mean and harmful to people and for America.

Despite America being founded on absolute freedom to worship however an American desires. Despite every American president coming from a Christian faith tradition; despite the majority of our current elected officials professing a Christian faith, and publicly expressing their Christian belief and attending church, as President Biden and his wife and family do.

If you do not like Christianity, pp, and you think there are no good Christians, there are countries that limit the practice of Christianity and in which being a Christian is severely restricted.


Global Restrictions on Religion


https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2009/12/restrictions-fullreport1-1.pdf

Pew has a comprehensive reporting on this very topic.

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />

If you are an American that is an anti-theist, and actively dislikes religion, opposes the free exercise of religion and believes religion is harmful, you have places to flee to.

If you want to live in a country that represents your thoughts on restricting religion, Pew shows you who you identify with and what government you would feel comfortable living under.

Straw man yet again. Yes, many negative things about religion are mentioned here, as they should be. But no one has claimed all religious people are bad so stop saying that. And as for wanting a country that restricts religion, the constitution has spoken on that.

There just isn’t compelling evidence a god exists. That’s the entire atheist position. Don’t ascribe any more to it. And try and spot those troll posts before you reply to them. They are not real.

Atheists simply choose to say they don’t believe in God. They don’t get any say in how other people feel about God, including God’s existence, or the personal relationship a person may choose to have via their religious beliefs, with God.

Your personal feelings about God do not impact anyone else’s regarding the existence of God.

Your atheism is how you view the world for you- not the rest of us.

Here you go straw manning again, arguing against positions no one has made.

The facts are you have it exactly backwards, and it is the religious that preach what will happen if we don’t believe, and the nonreligious that simply say what they believe, which is that there isn’t compelling evidence for a God but if you show us some, we will change our position.

What would make you change your position?

What is your faith that God does not exist based on?

DP It's not faith. It's lack of evidence

Plenty of people see evidence of God.

There are no scientific tests or measures to prove or disprove God’s existence.

Why can’t the original pp answer?

I remember a line in Angels and Demons, the movie. A priest asks Tom Hanks's character "Do you believe in God?" And he says something like "No, father, that's a gift I never received." (or something pretty close to that). It always fascinates me how some people are susceptible to this belief (and can abandon common sense) and some just aren't. I wonder if it's genetic. Some people may have the "believer gene" and some just don't."

Tom Hank’s movies are indeed incredible. Basing life choices off of lines written for Tom Hanks, by screenwriters, for Hanks to speak, to make money, is just amazing, friend.

Whether or not God exists cannot be definitely proven. If you don’t believe, that’s your choice, but your disbelief doesn’t negate anyone else’s belief, and vice versa.

Same goes for all the other Gods and imaginary characters throughout history

Constructive conversation between those of different faiths, and believers/nonbelievers, is appropriate. People who just want to stand up and decree why their belief is correct and everyone else is wrong- that’s the problem.

agreed. Hard to do, though if religious believers want to convert people to their particular version of Religion and non-believers want to tell believers how silly religion is.

Often just speaking about your religious beliefs is considered trying to convert someone, which is false.

I can say I believe in God, He created the world, and Jesus Christ is my personal Savior.

That doesn’t make anyone else have to believe as I do.

I have a right to express my religious beliefs. Does doing so convert anyone?

So, do you extend the same freedom to people who tell you they don’t see any evidence for your beliefs? Is that them trying to convert you or convince you?

I have never told an atheist that their beliefs are silly or not valid. Ever. I just have my own deeply held beliefs. Atheists can believe as they wish, that’s an important part of being an American and it’s important to treat other people (even if I don’t agree with them) and their beliefs with respect.

Why do you have to tell other people you see no evidence for their beliefs?

Why do you get to say what your beliefs are and I do not? You didn’t answer that question.

You aren’t talking about your beliefs- you are talking about mine. Your beliefs are that my beliefs are wrong?

That there is no evidence for them. Yes that is my belief.

Why do you need evidence for my beliefs?

Hopefully I need evidence for any beliefs. But let’s try this: write out a sample conversation of you stating your beliefs and me replying. Write it out exactly how you think it should go.

No thanks. I respect your disbelief, have no judgment upon it, am glad we live in a country we can live as we choose. I don’t feel any need to prove to you or me or anyone else that I am right and you are wrong, or to examine why you believe as you do.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works

Your belief is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You believe that unless you see evidence for something that makes sense to you, everyone else is wrong.

My beliefs are what I think are important and what makes sense to me, brings me comfort, and yes, I believe the evidence I have seen that has led me to my religion. I do not believe anyone has to prove to anyone else they are right to live as they believe.

There is nothing that makes me happy, improves my life, or makes me more or less secure in my religion and life by asking you to provide me evidence to prove your beliefs are valid. You are not subject to my assessment of correctness.

You are an American citizen and due your right to believe or not believe as you choose.

I don’t understand how you feel you must approve everyone’s religion like a teacher grading a test…if people answer your questions right and give you evidence, you will allow their belief. If you feel you have the right or responsibility to inspect people’s beliefs and say anything other than you personally don’t believe, I think you are overstepping your boundaries.

More straw man. Don’t ascribe anything to me without asking. I’ll tell you my beliefs. Nearly everything you have ascribed to me is false.

So tell us your beliefs.

I already have, and you already know, but if you’d like me to repeat, I’ll be happy to:

I have seen no sufficient evidence supporting the existence of a god or gods. Therefore, I see no reason to believe in one. If I do see sufficient evidence of one, I will change my position accordingly.

We know you don’t have religious beliefs. What are your beliefs that do involving religion? No one expects you to have religious beliefs.

Forgive me, I assure I am being sincere, but I don’t understand your post, and if you could try again, and I will reply, I would appreciate it.

Morals?
Values?
Ethical codes?

Do you have any, and what are they?

People who don’t believe in religion still believe in something? Not a higher power. What gives your life meaning?

I think life itself gives itself meaning enough. Every single day. And the things within it. Of course, I have morals and values and ethical codes everybody does, and sometimes they differ.

But make no mistake. None of those things have anything to do with whether or not I believe a god or gods exist.

Ok, could you share what morals and values and ethical codes you believe in? That’s what I am interested in.

This is a religion forum, and I think we should restrict our discussion to that topic.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works.

What an epic fail. You think that was clever? You think that has any correlation to the post you copy? It doesn’t. Pathetic.

It’s strawman and non-sequitur yet again.

Now how about you present your evidence for your god?

Your entire personality is based upon hating religion, and demanding American citizens with constitutionally protected rights to believe and worship however they choose show you “evidence” of their beliefs.

Atheists are the biggest Karens of all time.

I don’t believe for a second you have any morals or values that are worth much, as you don’t respect the constitution and fancy yourself a self-appointed hall monitor, making demands for “evidence.” Then, when asked about your morals and values, you say it’s not necessary to discuss them- and nobody even asked you for evidence to prove your viewpoint. How about you list your morals, values, and ethics, and for each one provide a comprehensive piece of evidence to prove everything about them? We need to evaluate historical origin and take stock of your claims to assess value, make sure it’s an appropriate way to think and live.

So much wrong with your post:

No my entire personality is not based on hating religion.

I only ask for evidence when claims are made. No claim, no evidence required. Show evidence and I will change my mind. Easy peasy!

I don’t care what you think my values are. I am a good and kind and generous person . Your ad hominems don’t change that. This is the religion forum, as pointed out. Stay on topic and don’t straw man. Oh and the pejorative “karen” that you use is both sexist and stupid. But we’re not talking about values, including the poor ones you just demonstrated.

I’ll politely wait for your evidence.

What kind of evidence are you seeking? Like really, what would it look like? Are you imagining that you can someone find God physically somewhere? Find some mysterious wavelength that sounds like God? Some magical incantation that can help you channel God and perform miracles? Seriously, what qualitative kind of evidence are you seeking?

Any kind. The best you have.

The fact that the world exists? The fact that it is (and we assume it is) intelligible? The fact that all humans throughout history have strived for the divine (we have the God gene if you will)? The fact that only humans (vs other animals) are capable of such deep evil?

How is the fact that the world exists proof of a god?

How is "the god gene" not simply "the god of the gaps" like Thor's hammer?

I don't agree or even understand that only humans (vs other animals) are capable of such deep evil? . Ever seen a documentary on Hippos? They are vegetarians who want to kill you simply because they hate you! But even if this obtuse and unsupported claim were true, how is that evidence for a god?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s a cop out answer, OP. Easier than offering you help in ways that might give you more time to go to therapy, exercise, et al. She could make a few healthy meals and drop off, or watch your kids for a few hours.

Do you really believe that a few healthy meals can help with clinical depression? OP said she has been in therapy for years. Few more sessions will not make a difference.

And finding Jesus will make a difference?

Some people continue learning from therapy and should not drop it because of a stranger on the internet or a friend pushing a religious cure.

Yes. Finding Jesus does make a difference. Bonus - it costs way less than any therapy!

You are part of the problem.

You are funny. OP's problem don't come from people who live happy and content life. OP's problems come from people like you who convinced that living with depression is normal. Your soul is like a jar, it cannot remain empty. If you don't fill it in with a light, it will be filled with a darkness. And to fill it with the light, you have to take action. The good thing is that OP has the choice of how to fill it.

I sort of agree with that. If all the therapists and medications and treatments have failed? If you have struggled with depression your entire life, tried every possible treatment and multiple medications, had many different psychiatric interventions, and modern treatments and medications have failed you?

You can’t just stay in the dark of depression your entire life. Try something different. You have to try, for yourself and your loved ones.

It’s gross to suggest a person suffers for decades and dies in mental agony and doesn’t try to live a better quality of life for their own happiness.

So, what the hell, OP-- try religion. and if that doesn't work, too bad - Christians will tell you that you just need to keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are speaking for Christians in the absence of the need to do so. I have two suggestions, that either your parents either neglected to teach you, or you were taught, but refuse to abide by:

1. Don’t generalize, especially about people, especially about their deeply held, deeply personal beliefs

2. Don’t speak for a person, or group of people. Let people speak for themselves.

I choose to believe your parents taught you these lessons, and you just need a simple reminder to implement them to be a kind, socially responsible citizen.

No simple reminder needed. Just keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are toxic. You speak for Christianity when you are not a Christian. You think I need your permission to worship Jesus and His Salvation is a joke? Why do you care how I or anyone else conducts their worship and faith in America- a place founded on complete religious freedom?

There are so many toxic posters here who cannot accept religious freedom is a huge part of being an American. It’s good we can worship as we wish. It makes us the envy of the world.

I believe Americans who are so un-American as to not believe in freedom of religion and do not tolerate freedom of religion should either learn to be respectful of our laws and values and morals, or find a new home in a country that limits the expression and freedom of religion, so they can live peaceful and happy lives.

Google the countries that restrict religion and religious practices and go there…you won’t have to live in a country with religious freedom. It would be better than spending your life obsessively watching religious people, telling religious people their faith is wrong, and speaking for the Christianity you despise so deeply.

It’s very sad to live your life hating something (Christianity) so much. It will be very hard for you your entire life, because religious freedom is not going away. We will continue to worship, pray, speak about our faith, and shine brightly as lights representing God in our communities.

As the saying goes, sucks to be you, but I’d never say that to you seriously. I believe your anger and obsessive hostility and venom against Christianity and Christians comes from irrational fear, self-loathing, and hatred for yourself. No one can hate other people without cause without self-hatred.

So when you post such uncalled for and hateful things, I know it’s coming from a bitter and angry and scared place of self-hatred. Prayers to you. Jesus will save you, too.

Wow - talk about anger and hostility! Two simple sentences encouraging belief inspire paragraphs of attack language. It's so unlike Christ that it's hard to believe an actual Christian would say such things.

You aren’t serious, just trolling because looking in the mirror hurts.

pp must not be a good Christian. A good Christian would not say such hateful things. Even to a stranger on the Internet.

There are no good Christians.

You are a hateful and bigoted anti-theist. An atheist simply doesn’t believe or care about religion or God. Anti-theists actively and obsessively hate religion, religious people, etc.

So tell me, are there good Jewish people? Good Muslim people? Are any religious people good?

That’s not a real post and you know it. Don’t feed the trolls.

I see many posts here claiming that religion, religious people, Christianity specifically, is bad. That Christianity and Christians are mean and harmful to people and for America.

Despite America being founded on absolute freedom to worship however an American desires. Despite every American president coming from a Christian faith tradition; despite the majority of our current elected officials professing a Christian faith, and publicly expressing their Christian belief and attending church, as President Biden and his wife and family do.

If you do not like Christianity, pp, and you think there are no good Christians, there are countries that limit the practice of Christianity and in which being a Christian is severely restricted.


Global Restrictions on Religion


https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2009/12/restrictions-fullreport1-1.pdf

Pew has a comprehensive reporting on this very topic.

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />

If you are an American that is an anti-theist, and actively dislikes religion, opposes the free exercise of religion and believes religion is harmful, you have places to flee to.

If you want to live in a country that represents your thoughts on restricting religion, Pew shows you who you identify with and what government you would feel comfortable living under.

Straw man yet again. Yes, many negative things about religion are mentioned here, as they should be. But no one has claimed all religious people are bad so stop saying that. And as for wanting a country that restricts religion, the constitution has spoken on that.

There just isn’t compelling evidence a god exists. That’s the entire atheist position. Don’t ascribe any more to it. And try and spot those troll posts before you reply to them. They are not real.

Atheists simply choose to say they don’t believe in God. They don’t get any say in how other people feel about God, including God’s existence, or the personal relationship a person may choose to have via their religious beliefs, with God.

Your personal feelings about God do not impact anyone else’s regarding the existence of God.

Your atheism is how you view the world for you- not the rest of us.

Here you go straw manning again, arguing against positions no one has made.

The facts are you have it exactly backwards, and it is the religious that preach what will happen if we don’t believe, and the nonreligious that simply say what they believe, which is that there isn’t compelling evidence for a God but if you show us some, we will change our position.

What would make you change your position?

What is your faith that God does not exist based on?

DP It's not faith. It's lack of evidence

Plenty of people see evidence of God.

There are no scientific tests or measures to prove or disprove God’s existence.

Why can’t the original pp answer?

I remember a line in Angels and Demons, the movie. A priest asks Tom Hanks's character "Do you believe in God?" And he says something like "No, father, that's a gift I never received." (or something pretty close to that). It always fascinates me how some people are susceptible to this belief (and can abandon common sense) and some just aren't. I wonder if it's genetic. Some people may have the "believer gene" and some just don't."

Tom Hank’s movies are indeed incredible. Basing life choices off of lines written for Tom Hanks, by screenwriters, for Hanks to speak, to make money, is just amazing, friend.

Whether or not God exists cannot be definitely proven. If you don’t believe, that’s your choice, but your disbelief doesn’t negate anyone else’s belief, and vice versa.

Same goes for all the other Gods and imaginary characters throughout history

Constructive conversation between those of different faiths, and believers/nonbelievers, is appropriate. People who just want to stand up and decree why their belief is correct and everyone else is wrong- that’s the problem.

agreed. Hard to do, though if religious believers want to convert people to their particular version of Religion and non-believers want to tell believers how silly religion is.

Often just speaking about your religious beliefs is considered trying to convert someone, which is false.

I can say I believe in God, He created the world, and Jesus Christ is my personal Savior.

That doesn’t make anyone else have to believe as I do.

I have a right to express my religious beliefs. Does doing so convert anyone?

So, do you extend the same freedom to people who tell you they don’t see any evidence for your beliefs? Is that them trying to convert you or convince you?

I have never told an atheist that their beliefs are silly or not valid. Ever. I just have my own deeply held beliefs. Atheists can believe as they wish, that’s an important part of being an American and it’s important to treat other people (even if I don’t agree with them) and their beliefs with respect.

Why do you have to tell other people you see no evidence for their beliefs?

Why do you get to say what your beliefs are and I do not? You didn’t answer that question.

You aren’t talking about your beliefs- you are talking about mine. Your beliefs are that my beliefs are wrong?

That there is no evidence for them. Yes that is my belief.

Why do you need evidence for my beliefs?

Hopefully I need evidence for any beliefs. But let’s try this: write out a sample conversation of you stating your beliefs and me replying. Write it out exactly how you think it should go.

No thanks. I respect your disbelief, have no judgment upon it, am glad we live in a country we can live as we choose. I don’t feel any need to prove to you or me or anyone else that I am right and you are wrong, or to examine why you believe as you do.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works

Your belief is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You believe that unless you see evidence for something that makes sense to you, everyone else is wrong.

My beliefs are what I think are important and what makes sense to me, brings me comfort, and yes, I believe the evidence I have seen that has led me to my religion. I do not believe anyone has to prove to anyone else they are right to live as they believe.

There is nothing that makes me happy, improves my life, or makes me more or less secure in my religion and life by asking you to provide me evidence to prove your beliefs are valid. You are not subject to my assessment of correctness.

You are an American citizen and due your right to believe or not believe as you choose.

I don’t understand how you feel you must approve everyone’s religion like a teacher grading a test…if people answer your questions right and give you evidence, you will allow their belief. If you feel you have the right or responsibility to inspect people’s beliefs and say anything other than you personally don’t believe, I think you are overstepping your boundaries.

More straw man. Don’t ascribe anything to me without asking. I’ll tell you my beliefs. Nearly everything you have ascribed to me is false.

So tell us your beliefs.

I already have, and you already know, but if you’d like me to repeat, I’ll be happy to:

I have seen no sufficient evidence supporting the existence of a god or gods. Therefore, I see no reason to believe in one. If I do see sufficient evidence of one, I will change my position accordingly.

We know you don’t have religious beliefs. What are your beliefs that do involving religion? No one expects you to have religious beliefs.

Forgive me, I assure I am being sincere, but I don’t understand your post, and if you could try again, and I will reply, I would appreciate it.

Morals?
Values?
Ethical codes?

Do you have any, and what are they?

People who don’t believe in religion still believe in something? Not a higher power. What gives your life meaning?

I think life itself gives itself meaning enough. Every single day. And the things within it. Of course, I have morals and values and ethical codes everybody does, and sometimes they differ.

But make no mistake. None of those things have anything to do with whether or not I believe a god or gods exist.

Ok, could you share what morals and values and ethical codes you believe in? That’s what I am interested in.

This is a religion forum, and I think we should restrict our discussion to that topic.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works.

What an epic fail. You think that was clever? You think that has any correlation to the post you copy? It doesn’t. Pathetic.

It’s strawman and non-sequitur yet again.

Now how about you present your evidence for your god?

Your entire personality is based upon hating religion, and demanding American citizens with constitutionally protected rights to believe and worship however they choose show you “evidence” of their beliefs.

Atheists are the biggest Karens of all time.

I don’t believe for a second you have any morals or values that are worth much, as you don’t respect the constitution and fancy yourself a self-appointed hall monitor, making demands for “evidence.” Then, when asked about your morals and values, you say it’s not necessary to discuss them- and nobody even asked you for evidence to prove your viewpoint. How about you list your morals, values, and ethics, and for each one provide a comprehensive piece of evidence to prove everything about them? We need to evaluate historical origin and take stock of your claims to assess value, make sure it’s an appropriate way to think and live.

So much wrong with your post:

No my entire personality is not based on hating religion.

I only ask for evidence when claims are made. No claim, no evidence required. Show evidence and I will change my mind. Easy peasy!

I don’t care what you think my values are. I am a good and kind and generous person . Your ad hominems don’t change that. This is the religion forum, as pointed out. Stay on topic and don’t straw man. Oh and the pejorative “karen” that you use is both sexist and stupid. But we’re not talking about values, including the poor ones you just demonstrated.

I’ll politely wait for your evidence.

What kind of evidence are you seeking? Like really, what would it look like? Are you imagining that you can someone find God physically somewhere? Find some mysterious wavelength that sounds like God? Some magical incantation that can help you channel God and perform miracles? Seriously, what qualitative kind of evidence are you seeking?

Any kind. The best you have.

The fact that the world exists? The fact that it is (and we assume it is) intelligible? The fact that all humans throughout history have strived for the divine (we have the God gene if you will)? The fact that only humans (vs other animals) are capable of such deep evil?

How is the fact that the world exists proof of a god?

How is "the god gene" not simply "the god of the gaps" like Thor's hammer?

I don't agree or even understand that only humans (vs other animals) are capable of such deep evil? . Ever seen a documentary on Hippos? They are vegetarians who want to kill you simply because they hate you! But even if this obtuse and unsupported claim were true, how is that evidence for a god?

1) if you were walking in the wilderness and came across a well constructed fort, would you say that is evidence there is/was someone around who built it? Any answer other than yes is absurd.

2) not sure what god of the gaps is, but religious longing has not waned with advancement of science. There are lots of hard core scientists from all fields who believe in God. And even if people have abandoned organized religion in our society, they have not abandoned spirituality, which for our purposes, is the same thing.

3) No, i have not seen a documentary on hippos. But I don't need to see one to know that animals do not commit atrocities and evils like humans do. Look at our history and read the news. Animals may kill, and often brutally, but they kill because they need to. We see animals evolve over time into more complex creatures, but we see no evidence of the evolution of evil (meaning, monkeys are not more evil than a lion or a spider or a virus). It is evidence of Christianity because Christianity has an explanation for this phenomenon, whereas atheism does not.

I look into the world objectively and look for the worldview that best explains what I see. And theism (specifically Christianity) does that better than atheism.

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Anonymous wrote:It’s a cop out answer, OP. Easier than offering you help in ways that might give you more time to go to therapy, exercise, et al. She could make a few healthy meals and drop off, or watch your kids for a few hours.

Do you really believe that a few healthy meals can help with clinical depression? OP said she has been in therapy for years. Few more sessions will not make a difference.

And finding Jesus will make a difference?

Some people continue learning from therapy and should not drop it because of a stranger on the internet or a friend pushing a religious cure.

Yes. Finding Jesus does make a difference. Bonus - it costs way less than any therapy!

You are part of the problem.

You are funny. OP's problem don't come from people who live happy and content life. OP's problems come from people like you who convinced that living with depression is normal. Your soul is like a jar, it cannot remain empty. If you don't fill it in with a light, it will be filled with a darkness. And to fill it with the light, you have to take action. The good thing is that OP has the choice of how to fill it.

I sort of agree with that. If all the therapists and medications and treatments have failed? If you have struggled with depression your entire life, tried every possible treatment and multiple medications, had many different psychiatric interventions, and modern treatments and medications have failed you?

You can’t just stay in the dark of depression your entire life. Try something different. You have to try, for yourself and your loved ones.

It’s gross to suggest a person suffers for decades and dies in mental agony and doesn’t try to live a better quality of life for their own happiness.

So, what the hell, OP-- try religion. and if that doesn't work, too bad - Christians will tell you that you just need to keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are speaking for Christians in the absence of the need to do so. I have two suggestions, that either your parents either neglected to teach you, or you were taught, but refuse to abide by:

1. Don’t generalize, especially about people, especially about their deeply held, deeply personal beliefs

2. Don’t speak for a person, or group of people. Let people speak for themselves.

I choose to believe your parents taught you these lessons, and you just need a simple reminder to implement them to be a kind, socially responsible citizen.

No simple reminder needed. Just keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are toxic. You speak for Christianity when you are not a Christian. You think I need your permission to worship Jesus and His Salvation is a joke? Why do you care how I or anyone else conducts their worship and faith in America- a place founded on complete religious freedom?

There are so many toxic posters here who cannot accept religious freedom is a huge part of being an American. It’s good we can worship as we wish. It makes us the envy of the world.

I believe Americans who are so un-American as to not believe in freedom of religion and do not tolerate freedom of religion should either learn to be respectful of our laws and values and morals, or find a new home in a country that limits the expression and freedom of religion, so they can live peaceful and happy lives.

Google the countries that restrict religion and religious practices and go there…you won’t have to live in a country with religious freedom. It would be better than spending your life obsessively watching religious people, telling religious people their faith is wrong, and speaking for the Christianity you despise so deeply.

It’s very sad to live your life hating something (Christianity) so much. It will be very hard for you your entire life, because religious freedom is not going away. We will continue to worship, pray, speak about our faith, and shine brightly as lights representing God in our communities.

As the saying goes, sucks to be you, but I’d never say that to you seriously. I believe your anger and obsessive hostility and venom against Christianity and Christians comes from irrational fear, self-loathing, and hatred for yourself. No one can hate other people without cause without self-hatred.

So when you post such uncalled for and hateful things, I know it’s coming from a bitter and angry and scared place of self-hatred. Prayers to you. Jesus will save you, too.

Wow - talk about anger and hostility! Two simple sentences encouraging belief inspire paragraphs of attack language. It's so unlike Christ that it's hard to believe an actual Christian would say such things.

You aren’t serious, just trolling because looking in the mirror hurts.

pp must not be a good Christian. A good Christian would not say such hateful things. Even to a stranger on the Internet.

There are no good Christians.

You are a hateful and bigoted anti-theist. An atheist simply doesn’t believe or care about religion or God. Anti-theists actively and obsessively hate religion, religious people, etc.

So tell me, are there good Jewish people? Good Muslim people? Are any religious people good?

That’s not a real post and you know it. Don’t feed the trolls.

I see many posts here claiming that religion, religious people, Christianity specifically, is bad. That Christianity and Christians are mean and harmful to people and for America.

Despite America being founded on absolute freedom to worship however an American desires. Despite every American president coming from a Christian faith tradition; despite the majority of our current elected officials professing a Christian faith, and publicly expressing their Christian belief and attending church, as President Biden and his wife and family do.

If you do not like Christianity, pp, and you think there are no good Christians, there are countries that limit the practice of Christianity and in which being a Christian is severely restricted.


Global Restrictions on Religion


https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2009/12/restrictions-fullreport1-1.pdf

Pew has a comprehensive reporting on this very topic.

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />

If you are an American that is an anti-theist, and actively dislikes religion, opposes the free exercise of religion and believes religion is harmful, you have places to flee to.

If you want to live in a country that represents your thoughts on restricting religion, Pew shows you who you identify with and what government you would feel comfortable living under.

Straw man yet again. Yes, many negative things about religion are mentioned here, as they should be. But no one has claimed all religious people are bad so stop saying that. And as for wanting a country that restricts religion, the constitution has spoken on that.

There just isn’t compelling evidence a god exists. That’s the entire atheist position. Don’t ascribe any more to it. And try and spot those troll posts before you reply to them. They are not real.

Atheists simply choose to say they don’t believe in God. They don’t get any say in how other people feel about God, including God’s existence, or the personal relationship a person may choose to have via their religious beliefs, with God.

Your personal feelings about God do not impact anyone else’s regarding the existence of God.

Your atheism is how you view the world for you- not the rest of us.

Here you go straw manning again, arguing against positions no one has made.

The facts are you have it exactly backwards, and it is the religious that preach what will happen if we don’t believe, and the nonreligious that simply say what they believe, which is that there isn’t compelling evidence for a God but if you show us some, we will change our position.

What would make you change your position?

What is your faith that God does not exist based on?

DP It's not faith. It's lack of evidence

Plenty of people see evidence of God.

There are no scientific tests or measures to prove or disprove God’s existence.

Why can’t the original pp answer?

I remember a line in Angels and Demons, the movie. A priest asks Tom Hanks's character "Do you believe in God?" And he says something like "No, father, that's a gift I never received." (or something pretty close to that). It always fascinates me how some people are susceptible to this belief (and can abandon common sense) and some just aren't. I wonder if it's genetic. Some people may have the "believer gene" and some just don't."

Tom Hank’s movies are indeed incredible. Basing life choices off of lines written for Tom Hanks, by screenwriters, for Hanks to speak, to make money, is just amazing, friend.

Whether or not God exists cannot be definitely proven. If you don’t believe, that’s your choice, but your disbelief doesn’t negate anyone else’s belief, and vice versa.

Same goes for all the other Gods and imaginary characters throughout history

Constructive conversation between those of different faiths, and believers/nonbelievers, is appropriate. People who just want to stand up and decree why their belief is correct and everyone else is wrong- that’s the problem.

agreed. Hard to do, though if religious believers want to convert people to their particular version of Religion and non-believers want to tell believers how silly religion is.

Often just speaking about your religious beliefs is considered trying to convert someone, which is false.

I can say I believe in God, He created the world, and Jesus Christ is my personal Savior.

That doesn’t make anyone else have to believe as I do.

I have a right to express my religious beliefs. Does doing so convert anyone?

So, do you extend the same freedom to people who tell you they don’t see any evidence for your beliefs? Is that them trying to convert you or convince you?

I have never told an atheist that their beliefs are silly or not valid. Ever. I just have my own deeply held beliefs. Atheists can believe as they wish, that’s an important part of being an American and it’s important to treat other people (even if I don’t agree with them) and their beliefs with respect.

Why do you have to tell other people you see no evidence for their beliefs?

Why do you get to say what your beliefs are and I do not? You didn’t answer that question.

You aren’t talking about your beliefs- you are talking about mine. Your beliefs are that my beliefs are wrong?

That there is no evidence for them. Yes that is my belief.

Why do you need evidence for my beliefs?

Hopefully I need evidence for any beliefs. But let’s try this: write out a sample conversation of you stating your beliefs and me replying. Write it out exactly how you think it should go.

No thanks. I respect your disbelief, have no judgment upon it, am glad we live in a country we can live as we choose. I don’t feel any need to prove to you or me or anyone else that I am right and you are wrong, or to examine why you believe as you do.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works

Your belief is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You believe that unless you see evidence for something that makes sense to you, everyone else is wrong.

My beliefs are what I think are important and what makes sense to me, brings me comfort, and yes, I believe the evidence I have seen that has led me to my religion. I do not believe anyone has to prove to anyone else they are right to live as they believe.

There is nothing that makes me happy, improves my life, or makes me more or less secure in my religion and life by asking you to provide me evidence to prove your beliefs are valid. You are not subject to my assessment of correctness.

You are an American citizen and due your right to believe or not believe as you choose.

I don’t understand how you feel you must approve everyone’s religion like a teacher grading a test…if people answer your questions right and give you evidence, you will allow their belief. If you feel you have the right or responsibility to inspect people’s beliefs and say anything other than you personally don’t believe, I think you are overstepping your boundaries.

More straw man. Don’t ascribe anything to me without asking. I’ll tell you my beliefs. Nearly everything you have ascribed to me is false.

So tell us your beliefs.

I already have, and you already know, but if you’d like me to repeat, I’ll be happy to:

I have seen no sufficient evidence supporting the existence of a god or gods. Therefore, I see no reason to believe in one. If I do see sufficient evidence of one, I will change my position accordingly.

We know you don’t have religious beliefs. What are your beliefs that do involving religion? No one expects you to have religious beliefs.

Forgive me, I assure I am being sincere, but I don’t understand your post, and if you could try again, and I will reply, I would appreciate it.

Morals?
Values?
Ethical codes?

Do you have any, and what are they?

People who don’t believe in religion still believe in something? Not a higher power. What gives your life meaning?

I think life itself gives itself meaning enough. Every single day. And the things within it. Of course, I have morals and values and ethical codes everybody does, and sometimes they differ.

But make no mistake. None of those things have anything to do with whether or not I believe a god or gods exist.

Ok, could you share what morals and values and ethical codes you believe in? That’s what I am interested in.

This is a religion forum, and I think we should restrict our discussion to that topic.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works.

What an epic fail. You think that was clever? You think that has any correlation to the post you copy? It doesn’t. Pathetic.

It’s strawman and non-sequitur yet again.

Now how about you present your evidence for your god?

Your entire personality is based upon hating religion, and demanding American citizens with constitutionally protected rights to believe and worship however they choose show you “evidence” of their beliefs.

Atheists are the biggest Karens of all time.

I don’t believe for a second you have any morals or values that are worth much, as you don’t respect the constitution and fancy yourself a self-appointed hall monitor, making demands for “evidence.” Then, when asked about your morals and values, you say it’s not necessary to discuss them- and nobody even asked you for evidence to prove your viewpoint. How about you list your morals, values, and ethics, and for each one provide a comprehensive piece of evidence to prove everything about them? We need to evaluate historical origin and take stock of your claims to assess value, make sure it’s an appropriate way to think and live.

So much wrong with your post:

No my entire personality is not based on hating religion.

I only ask for evidence when claims are made. No claim, no evidence required. Show evidence and I will change my mind. Easy peasy!

I don’t care what you think my values are. I am a good and kind and generous person . Your ad hominems don’t change that. This is the religion forum, as pointed out. Stay on topic and don’t straw man. Oh and the pejorative “karen” that you use is both sexist and stupid. But we’re not talking about values, including the poor ones you just demonstrated.

I’ll politely wait for your evidence.

What kind of evidence are you seeking? Like really, what would it look like? Are you imagining that you can someone find God physically somewhere? Find some mysterious wavelength that sounds like God? Some magical incantation that can help you channel God and perform miracles? Seriously, what qualitative kind of evidence are you seeking?

Any kind. The best you have.

The fact that the world exists? The fact that it is (and we assume it is) intelligible? The fact that all humans throughout history have strived for the divine (we have the God gene if you will)? The fact that only humans (vs other animals) are capable of such deep evil?

How is the fact that the world exists proof of a god?

How is "the god gene" not simply "the god of the gaps" like Thor's hammer?

I don't agree or even understand that only humans (vs other animals) are capable of such deep evil? . Ever seen a documentary on Hippos? They are vegetarians who want to kill you simply because they hate you! But even if this obtuse and unsupported claim were true, how is that evidence for a god?

1) if you were walking in the wilderness and came across a well constructed fort, would you say that is evidence there is/was someone around who built it? Any answer other than yes is absurd.

2) not sure what god of the gaps is, but religious longing has not waned with advancement of science. There are lots of hard core scientists from all fields who believe in God. And even if people have abandoned organized religion in our society, they have not abandoned spirituality, which for our purposes, is the same thing.

3) No, i have not seen a documentary on hippos. But I don't need to see one to know that animals do not commit atrocities and evils like humans do. Look at our history and read the news. Animals may kill, and often brutally, but they kill because they need to. We see animals evolve over time into more complex creatures, but we see no evidence of the evolution of evil (meaning, monkeys are not more evil than a lion or a spider or a virus). It is evidence of Christianity because Christianity has an explanation for this phenomenon, whereas atheism does not.

I look into the world objectively and look for the worldview that best explains what I see. And theism (specifically Christianity) does that better than atheism.

Wanted to add that the human longing for God is separate from scientific gaps. Sure, they sometimes intertwine but at their roots, they are not addressing the same questions. Search for God is about answering the why questions, whereas science is about the how questions. The most important questions people ask will always be "why did this happen" "was there a purpose to my suffering" "will death separate me from my loved ones" etc. And those are not scientific questions. It is about people seeking to find meaning in their lives. Which begs the question, why are humans obsessed with finding meaning in their lives?

[Anonymous]

1) if you were walking in the wilderness and came across a well constructed fort, would you say that is evidence there is/was someone around who built it? Any answer other than yes is absurd.

This is the long disproved "watchmaker" argument. You know what a fort is and you've seen them made, so if you see a fort you know someone made it.

With this world view, which is fully pre-suppositional of a god's existence, name me something that is not designed.

What? There is nothing that is not designed?

Then you can't claim to see a difference between the two, now, can you. Logical fail. Again, the watchmaker theory disproved by others much smarter than I.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878

2) not sure what god of the gaps is, but religious longing has not waned with advancement of science. There are lots of hard core scientists from all fields who believe in God. And even if people have abandoned organized religion in our society, they have not abandoned spirituality, which for our purposes, is the same thing.

If you don't know what "god of the gaps" is, then you are very inexperienced in these kinds of arguments, and I politely suggest you read up on them more before making them. Again, these are long disproved fallacies by those much smarter than I.

"God of the gaps" is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

3) No, i have not seen a documentary on hippos. But I don't need to see one to know that animals do not commit atrocities and evils like humans do. Look at our history and read the news. Animals may kill, and often brutally, but they kill because they need to. We see animals evolve over time into more complex creatures, but we see no evidence of the evolution of evil (meaning, monkeys are not more evil than a lion or a spider or a virus). It is evidence of Christianity because Christianity has an explanation for this phenomenon, whereas atheism does not.

First, Atheism does not try to explain anything. Atheism is simply the position that there is insufficient evidence to believe in a god or gods. And hippos are entirely and 100% evil by anyone's definition as they will kill you for no reason whatsoever, and not because "they need to". They don't.

I look into the world objectively and look for the worldview that best explains what I see. And theism (specifically Christianity) does that better than atheism.

Does it matter to you if it is true or not, or just that it "explains it better"?

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Anonymous wrote:It’s a cop out answer, OP. Easier than offering you help in ways that might give you more time to go to therapy, exercise, et al. She could make a few healthy meals and drop off, or watch your kids for a few hours.

Do you really believe that a few healthy meals can help with clinical depression? OP said she has been in therapy for years. Few more sessions will not make a difference.

And finding Jesus will make a difference?

Some people continue learning from therapy and should not drop it because of a stranger on the internet or a friend pushing a religious cure.

Yes. Finding Jesus does make a difference. Bonus - it costs way less than any therapy!

You are part of the problem.

You are funny. OP's problem don't come from people who live happy and content life. OP's problems come from people like you who convinced that living with depression is normal. Your soul is like a jar, it cannot remain empty. If you don't fill it in with a light, it will be filled with a darkness. And to fill it with the light, you have to take action. The good thing is that OP has the choice of how to fill it.

I sort of agree with that. If all the therapists and medications and treatments have failed? If you have struggled with depression your entire life, tried every possible treatment and multiple medications, had many different psychiatric interventions, and modern treatments and medications have failed you?

You can’t just stay in the dark of depression your entire life. Try something different. You have to try, for yourself and your loved ones.

It’s gross to suggest a person suffers for decades and dies in mental agony and doesn’t try to live a better quality of life for their own happiness.

So, what the hell, OP-- try religion. and if that doesn't work, too bad - Christians will tell you that you just need to keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are speaking for Christians in the absence of the need to do so. I have two suggestions, that either your parents either neglected to teach you, or you were taught, but refuse to abide by:

1. Don’t generalize, especially about people, especially about their deeply held, deeply personal beliefs

2. Don’t speak for a person, or group of people. Let people speak for themselves.

I choose to believe your parents taught you these lessons, and you just need a simple reminder to implement them to be a kind, socially responsible citizen.

No simple reminder needed. Just keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are toxic. You speak for Christianity when you are not a Christian. You think I need your permission to worship Jesus and His Salvation is a joke? Why do you care how I or anyone else conducts their worship and faith in America- a place founded on complete religious freedom?

There are so many toxic posters here who cannot accept religious freedom is a huge part of being an American. It’s good we can worship as we wish. It makes us the envy of the world.

I believe Americans who are so un-American as to not believe in freedom of religion and do not tolerate freedom of religion should either learn to be respectful of our laws and values and morals, or find a new home in a country that limits the expression and freedom of religion, so they can live peaceful and happy lives.

Google the countries that restrict religion and religious practices and go there…you won’t have to live in a country with religious freedom. It would be better than spending your life obsessively watching religious people, telling religious people their faith is wrong, and speaking for the Christianity you despise so deeply.

It’s very sad to live your life hating something (Christianity) so much. It will be very hard for you your entire life, because religious freedom is not going away. We will continue to worship, pray, speak about our faith, and shine brightly as lights representing God in our communities.

As the saying goes, sucks to be you, but I’d never say that to you seriously. I believe your anger and obsessive hostility and venom against Christianity and Christians comes from irrational fear, self-loathing, and hatred for yourself. No one can hate other people without cause without self-hatred.

So when you post such uncalled for and hateful things, I know it’s coming from a bitter and angry and scared place of self-hatred. Prayers to you. Jesus will save you, too.

Wow - talk about anger and hostility! Two simple sentences encouraging belief inspire paragraphs of attack language. It's so unlike Christ that it's hard to believe an actual Christian would say such things.

You aren’t serious, just trolling because looking in the mirror hurts.

pp must not be a good Christian. A good Christian would not say such hateful things. Even to a stranger on the Internet.

There are no good Christians.

You are a hateful and bigoted anti-theist. An atheist simply doesn’t believe or care about religion or God. Anti-theists actively and obsessively hate religion, religious people, etc.

So tell me, are there good Jewish people? Good Muslim people? Are any religious people good?

That’s not a real post and you know it. Don’t feed the trolls.

I see many posts here claiming that religion, religious people, Christianity specifically, is bad. That Christianity and Christians are mean and harmful to people and for America.

Despite America being founded on absolute freedom to worship however an American desires. Despite every American president coming from a Christian faith tradition; despite the majority of our current elected officials professing a Christian faith, and publicly expressing their Christian belief and attending church, as President Biden and his wife and family do.

If you do not like Christianity, pp, and you think there are no good Christians, there are countries that limit the practice of Christianity and in which being a Christian is severely restricted.


Global Restrictions on Religion


https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2009/12/restrictions-fullreport1-1.pdf

Pew has a comprehensive reporting on this very topic.

" border="0" class="embeddedImage" />

If you are an American that is an anti-theist, and actively dislikes religion, opposes the free exercise of religion and believes religion is harmful, you have places to flee to.

If you want to live in a country that represents your thoughts on restricting religion, Pew shows you who you identify with and what government you would feel comfortable living under.

Straw man yet again. Yes, many negative things about religion are mentioned here, as they should be. But no one has claimed all religious people are bad so stop saying that. And as for wanting a country that restricts religion, the constitution has spoken on that.

There just isn’t compelling evidence a god exists. That’s the entire atheist position. Don’t ascribe any more to it. And try and spot those troll posts before you reply to them. They are not real.

Atheists simply choose to say they don’t believe in God. They don’t get any say in how other people feel about God, including God’s existence, or the personal relationship a person may choose to have via their religious beliefs, with God.

Your personal feelings about God do not impact anyone else’s regarding the existence of God.

Your atheism is how you view the world for you- not the rest of us.

Here you go straw manning again, arguing against positions no one has made.

The facts are you have it exactly backwards, and it is the religious that preach what will happen if we don’t believe, and the nonreligious that simply say what they believe, which is that there isn’t compelling evidence for a God but if you show us some, we will change our position.

What would make you change your position?

What is your faith that God does not exist based on?

DP It's not faith. It's lack of evidence

Plenty of people see evidence of God.

There are no scientific tests or measures to prove or disprove God’s existence.

Why can’t the original pp answer?

I remember a line in Angels and Demons, the movie. A priest asks Tom Hanks's character "Do you believe in God?" And he says something like "No, father, that's a gift I never received." (or something pretty close to that). It always fascinates me how some people are susceptible to this belief (and can abandon common sense) and some just aren't. I wonder if it's genetic. Some people may have the "believer gene" and some just don't."

Tom Hank’s movies are indeed incredible. Basing life choices off of lines written for Tom Hanks, by screenwriters, for Hanks to speak, to make money, is just amazing, friend.

Whether or not God exists cannot be definitely proven. If you don’t believe, that’s your choice, but your disbelief doesn’t negate anyone else’s belief, and vice versa.

Same goes for all the other Gods and imaginary characters throughout history

Constructive conversation between those of different faiths, and believers/nonbelievers, is appropriate. People who just want to stand up and decree why their belief is correct and everyone else is wrong- that’s the problem.

agreed. Hard to do, though if religious believers want to convert people to their particular version of Religion and non-believers want to tell believers how silly religion is.

Often just speaking about your religious beliefs is considered trying to convert someone, which is false.

I can say I believe in God, He created the world, and Jesus Christ is my personal Savior.

That doesn’t make anyone else have to believe as I do.

I have a right to express my religious beliefs. Does doing so convert anyone?

So, do you extend the same freedom to people who tell you they don’t see any evidence for your beliefs? Is that them trying to convert you or convince you?

I have never told an atheist that their beliefs are silly or not valid. Ever. I just have my own deeply held beliefs. Atheists can believe as they wish, that’s an important part of being an American and it’s important to treat other people (even if I don’t agree with them) and their beliefs with respect.

Why do you have to tell other people you see no evidence for their beliefs?

Why do you get to say what your beliefs are and I do not? You didn’t answer that question.

You aren’t talking about your beliefs- you are talking about mine. Your beliefs are that my beliefs are wrong?

That there is no evidence for them. Yes that is my belief.

Why do you need evidence for my beliefs?

Hopefully I need evidence for any beliefs. But let’s try this: write out a sample conversation of you stating your beliefs and me replying. Write it out exactly how you think it should go.

No thanks. I respect your disbelief, have no judgment upon it, am glad we live in a country we can live as we choose. I don’t feel any need to prove to you or me or anyone else that I am right and you are wrong, or to examine why you believe as you do.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works

Your belief is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You believe that unless you see evidence for something that makes sense to you, everyone else is wrong.

My beliefs are what I think are important and what makes sense to me, brings me comfort, and yes, I believe the evidence I have seen that has led me to my religion. I do not believe anyone has to prove to anyone else they are right to live as they believe.

There is nothing that makes me happy, improves my life, or makes me more or less secure in my religion and life by asking you to provide me evidence to prove your beliefs are valid. You are not subject to my assessment of correctness.

You are an American citizen and due your right to believe or not believe as you choose.

I don’t understand how you feel you must approve everyone’s religion like a teacher grading a test…if people answer your questions right and give you evidence, you will allow their belief. If you feel you have the right or responsibility to inspect people’s beliefs and say anything other than you personally don’t believe, I think you are overstepping your boundaries.

More straw man. Don’t ascribe anything to me without asking. I’ll tell you my beliefs. Nearly everything you have ascribed to me is false.

So tell us your beliefs.

I already have, and you already know, but if you’d like me to repeat, I’ll be happy to:

I have seen no sufficient evidence supporting the existence of a god or gods. Therefore, I see no reason to believe in one. If I do see sufficient evidence of one, I will change my position accordingly.

We know you don’t have religious beliefs. What are your beliefs that do involving religion? No one expects you to have religious beliefs.

Forgive me, I assure I am being sincere, but I don’t understand your post, and if you could try again, and I will reply, I would appreciate it.

Morals?
Values?
Ethical codes?

Do you have any, and what are they?

People who don’t believe in religion still believe in something? Not a higher power. What gives your life meaning?

I think life itself gives itself meaning enough. Every single day. And the things within it. Of course, I have morals and values and ethical codes everybody does, and sometimes they differ.

But make no mistake. None of those things have anything to do with whether or not I believe a god or gods exist.

Ok, could you share what morals and values and ethical codes you believe in? That’s what I am interested in.

This is a religion forum, and I think we should restrict our discussion to that topic.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works.

What an epic fail. You think that was clever? You think that has any correlation to the post you copy? It doesn’t. Pathetic.

It’s strawman and non-sequitur yet again.

Now how about you present your evidence for your god?

Your entire personality is based upon hating religion, and demanding American citizens with constitutionally protected rights to believe and worship however they choose show you “evidence” of their beliefs.

Atheists are the biggest Karens of all time.

I don’t believe for a second you have any morals or values that are worth much, as you don’t respect the constitution and fancy yourself a self-appointed hall monitor, making demands for “evidence.” Then, when asked about your morals and values, you say it’s not necessary to discuss them- and nobody even asked you for evidence to prove your viewpoint. How about you list your morals, values, and ethics, and for each one provide a comprehensive piece of evidence to prove everything about them? We need to evaluate historical origin and take stock of your claims to assess value, make sure it’s an appropriate way to think and live.

So much wrong with your post:

No my entire personality is not based on hating religion.

I only ask for evidence when claims are made. No claim, no evidence required. Show evidence and I will change my mind. Easy peasy!

I don’t care what you think my values are. I am a good and kind and generous person . Your ad hominems don’t change that. This is the religion forum, as pointed out. Stay on topic and don’t straw man. Oh and the pejorative “karen” that you use is both sexist and stupid. But we’re not talking about values, including the poor ones you just demonstrated.

I’ll politely wait for your evidence.

Need evidence to prove you are a good, kind, and generous person, as you claim to be.

I’ll politely wait for your evidence.

I have a lot of friends and family that love me, I give substantially to charities, both my money and my time, I obey the law and civil conventions, the list goes on and on.

Mostly, it’s because I want to be one and I try to be on every day. I’m certainly not perfect and there’s days I fall short.

OK your turn. What is the evidence for your God?

You know that none of your claims are verifiable, right?

Your post is evidence only you post online in this forum. It provides evidence for nothing else. Several pps have pointed that out.

Wrong again! They are 100% all verifiable. You can talk to people who know me, see receipts, see things I have done, do a background check. All verifiable.

How are your claims verifiable?

Theoretically they are verifiable. But you won’t post personal information for this evidence here so we can verify it, so it’s not really evidence.

It’s still just your unverified claims.

Unverified is not the same thing as unverifiable. Do you understand that?

I am sure we could find a way to connect and you could verify facts about me. As long as you agreed to match the single largest charitable donation I made last year to the same charity, which was the Make-A-Wish foundation once you verified I did it. And you mea culpa here.

Game?

No, I am definitely not game. I would advise you to never give your personal information to anyone online. Ever. This is pp, declining. If anyone contacts you somehow and says hey it’s me from dcum religion forum give me your info, rest assured, it’s not me. I have zero shame in declining this. It’s nuts, to be honest.

In context:

No, I am definitely not game.

Yah, no surprise you are unwilling to put your money where your mouth is.

I have zero shame in declining this. It’s nuts, to be honest.

Oh, really? Then why did you make this claim then:

But you won’t post personal information for this evidence here so we can verify it, so it’s not really evidence.

This is known as "having your bluff called", and I genuinely hope you don't play actual poker. You made the claim and the challenge. You failed. You now wear the chickenshirt.

Please don't lose the main point among all this super fun (for me) exchange: The difference between unverified and unverifiable.

Your claims of a god existing are unverifiable. Just like the claim Leprechauns exist is unverifiable. So unless there is sufficient evidence to believe in your god, or Leprechauns, there is no reason to, and it is why you don't believe in Leprechauns.

People scam each other and give each other fake names and false information all the time. I don’t know how old you are, but don’t ever give anyone information online.

Lol. Remember, you were the one who challenged me:

But you won’t post personal information for this evidence here so we can verify it, so it’s not really evidence.

Everyone can see what's what here. I'll repeat: Please don't lose the main point among all this super fun (for me) exchange: The difference between unverified and unverifiable. Your claims of a god existing are unverifiable. Just like the claim Leprechauns exist is unverifiable. So unless there is sufficient evidence to believe in your god, or Leprechauns, there is no reason to, and it is why you don't believe in Leprechauns.

You really keep missing the boat. Absence of evidence is not absence of evidence. Choosing not to believe is a belief not supported by the evidence, of which there is none. God and leprechauns included.

I'll ask again: do you believe in Leprechauns?

A: No, you do not. Of course not.

But you put your god in the same category. So why do you believe in one and not the other?

DP -- because one offers eternal life and the other does not; because one is believed in by many other adults and the other is not; because people are conditioned to continue believing in one as adults and into rejecting belief in the other as children.

Ahh, an honest answer! And also one that has nothing to do with which one is true and which one isn’t. Finally. thank you.

You're welcome.

Signed, a formerly religious person who has given this sort of question a lot of thought.

[Anonymous]

Atheism is a personal decision, and just because you don’t think there is enough evidence to believe in God, doesn’t mean other people don’t personally have enough evidence to believe in God.

That’s the thing that gets me: nobody has to believe in God. You don’t think there is a God, bully for you. But your decision doesn’t mean other people can’t believe in God.

People here have multiple cows because they think people are “proselytizing,” but them will post multiple times asking for Christians to give evidence and prove God to them . How about live your God free life not thinking about God 24/7/365? If you were really happy and fulfilled and busy in your life, you’d not spend more time debating and thinking about God than many Christian people.

[Anonymous]

Mother Teresa suffered from depression. I'm sure she knew Jesus better than your friend. Tell her to shut up andgo sit down somewhere!

[Anonymous]

Atheism is a personal decision, and just because you don’t think there is enough evidence to believe in God, doesn’t mean other people don’t personally have enough evidence to believe in God.

Personally I disagree that it is a decision. I never decided to not beleive in god just as you never decided not to believe in Bigfoot. You say people personally have enough evidence, I am simply asking them for it. They don't have to respond or provide it. The easiest thing is to ignore it. But I would hope we can have an open discussion and an open mind. I promise you if I see evidence of a god I will instantly begin believing in one. Can you say the same?

That’s the thing that gets me: nobody has to believe in God. You don’t think there is a God, bully for you. But your decision doesn’t mean other people can’t believe in God.

That’s the thing that gets me: nobody has to believe in God. You think there is a God, bully for you. But your decision doesn’t mean other people can’t not believe in God.

People here have multiple cows because they think people are “proselytizing,” but them will post multiple times asking for Christians to give evidence and prove God to them . How about live your God free life not thinking about God 24/7/365? If you were really happy and fulfilled and busy in your life, you’d not spend more time debating and thinking about God than many Christian people.

Please give an example of how you'd like a conversation to go here, between someone who believes and someone who does not. You can script it out if you like.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s a cop out answer, OP. Easier than offering you help in ways that might give you more time to go to therapy, exercise, et al. She could make a few healthy meals and drop off, or watch your kids for a few hours.

Do you really believe that a few healthy meals can help with clinical depression? OP said she has been in therapy for years. Few more sessions will not make a difference.

And finding Jesus will make a difference?

Some people continue learning from therapy and should not drop it because of a stranger on the internet or a friend pushing a religious cure.

Yes. Finding Jesus does make a difference. Bonus - it costs way less than any therapy!

You are part of the problem.

You are funny. OP's problem don't come from people who live happy and content life. OP's problems come from people like you who convinced that living with depression is normal. Your soul is like a jar, it cannot remain empty. If you don't fill it in with a light, it will be filled with a darkness. And to fill it with the light, you have to take action. The good thing is that OP has the choice of how to fill it.

I sort of agree with that. If all the therapists and medications and treatments have failed? If you have struggled with depression your entire life, tried every possible treatment and multiple medications, had many different psychiatric interventions, and modern treatments and medications have failed you?

You can’t just stay in the dark of depression your entire life. Try something different. You have to try, for yourself and your loved ones.

It’s gross to suggest a person suffers for decades and dies in mental agony and doesn’t try to live a better quality of life for their own happiness.

So, what the hell, OP-- try religion. and if that doesn't work, too bad - Christians will tell you that you just need to keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are speaking for Christians in the absence of the need to do so. I have two suggestions, that either your parents either neglected to teach you, or you were taught, but refuse to abide by:

1. Don’t generalize, especially about people, especially about their deeply held, deeply personal beliefs

2. Don’t speak for a person, or group of people. Let people speak for themselves.

I choose to believe your parents taught you these lessons, and you just need a simple reminder to implement them to be a kind, socially responsible citizen.

No simple reminder needed. Just keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are toxic. You speak for Christianity when you are not a Christian. You think I need your permission to worship Jesus and His Salvation is a joke? Why do you care how I or anyone else conducts their worship and faith in America- a place founded on complete religious freedom?

There are so many toxic posters here who cannot accept religious freedom is a huge part of being an American. It’s good we can worship as we wish. It makes us the envy of the world.

I believe Americans who are so un-American as to not believe in freedom of religion and do not tolerate freedom of religion should either learn to be respectful of our laws and values and morals, or find a new home in a country that limits the expression and freedom of religion, so they can live peaceful and happy lives.

Google the countries that restrict religion and religious practices and go there…you won’t have to live in a country with religious freedom. It would be better than spending your life obsessively watching religious people, telling religious people their faith is wrong, and speaking for the Christianity you despise so deeply.

It’s very sad to live your life hating something (Christianity) so much. It will be very hard for you your entire life, because religious freedom is not going away. We will continue to worship, pray, speak about our faith, and shine brightly as lights representing God in our communities.

As the saying goes, sucks to be you, but I’d never say that to you seriously. I believe your anger and obsessive hostility and venom against Christianity and Christians comes from irrational fear, self-loathing, and hatred for yourself. No one can hate other people without cause without self-hatred.

So when you post such uncalled for and hateful things, I know it’s coming from a bitter and angry and scared place of self-hatred. Prayers to you. Jesus will save you, too.

Wow - talk about anger and hostility! Two simple sentences encouraging belief inspire paragraphs of attack language. It's so unlike Christ that it's hard to believe an actual Christian would say such things.

You aren’t serious, just trolling because looking in the mirror hurts.

pp must not be a good Christian. A good Christian would not say such hateful things. Even to a stranger on the Internet.

There are no good Christians.

You are a hateful and bigoted anti-theist. An atheist simply doesn’t believe or care about religion or God. Anti-theists actively and obsessively hate religion, religious people, etc.

So tell me, are there good Jewish people? Good Muslim people? Are any religious people good?

That’s not a real post and you know it. Don’t feed the trolls.

I see many posts here claiming that religion, religious people, Christianity specifically, is bad. That Christianity and Christians are mean and harmful to people and for America.

Despite America being founded on absolute freedom to worship however an American desires. Despite every American president coming from a Christian faith tradition; despite the majority of our current elected officials professing a Christian faith, and publicly expressing their Christian belief and attending church, as President Biden and his wife and family do.

If you do not like Christianity, pp, and you think there are no good Christians, there are countries that limit the practice of Christianity and in which being a Christian is severely restricted.


Global Restrictions on Religion


https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2009/12/restrictions-fullreport1-1.pdf

Pew has a comprehensive reporting on this very topic.

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If you are an American that is an anti-theist, and actively dislikes religion, opposes the free exercise of religion and believes religion is harmful, you have places to flee to.

If you want to live in a country that represents your thoughts on restricting religion, Pew shows you who you identify with and what government you would feel comfortable living under.

Straw man yet again. Yes, many negative things about religion are mentioned here, as they should be. But no one has claimed all religious people are bad so stop saying that. And as for wanting a country that restricts religion, the constitution has spoken on that.

There just isn’t compelling evidence a god exists. That’s the entire atheist position. Don’t ascribe any more to it. And try and spot those troll posts before you reply to them. They are not real.

Atheists simply choose to say they don’t believe in God. They don’t get any say in how other people feel about God, including God’s existence, or the personal relationship a person may choose to have via their religious beliefs, with God.

Your personal feelings about God do not impact anyone else’s regarding the existence of God.

Your atheism is how you view the world for you- not the rest of us.

Here you go straw manning again, arguing against positions no one has made.

The facts are you have it exactly backwards, and it is the religious that preach what will happen if we don’t believe, and the nonreligious that simply say what they believe, which is that there isn’t compelling evidence for a God but if you show us some, we will change our position.

What would make you change your position?

What is your faith that God does not exist based on?

DP It's not faith. It's lack of evidence

Plenty of people see evidence of God.

There are no scientific tests or measures to prove or disprove God’s existence.

Why can’t the original pp answer?

I remember a line in Angels and Demons, the movie. A priest asks Tom Hanks's character "Do you believe in God?" And he says something like "No, father, that's a gift I never received." (or something pretty close to that). It always fascinates me how some people are susceptible to this belief (and can abandon common sense) and some just aren't. I wonder if it's genetic. Some people may have the "believer gene" and some just don't."

Tom Hank’s movies are indeed incredible. Basing life choices off of lines written for Tom Hanks, by screenwriters, for Hanks to speak, to make money, is just amazing, friend.

Whether or not God exists cannot be definitely proven. If you don’t believe, that’s your choice, but your disbelief doesn’t negate anyone else’s belief, and vice versa.

Same goes for all the other Gods and imaginary characters throughout history

Constructive conversation between those of different faiths, and believers/nonbelievers, is appropriate. People who just want to stand up and decree why their belief is correct and everyone else is wrong- that’s the problem.

agreed. Hard to do, though if religious believers want to convert people to their particular version of Religion and non-believers want to tell believers how silly religion is.

Often just speaking about your religious beliefs is considered trying to convert someone, which is false.

I can say I believe in God, He created the world, and Jesus Christ is my personal Savior.

That doesn’t make anyone else have to believe as I do.

I have a right to express my religious beliefs. Does doing so convert anyone?

So, do you extend the same freedom to people who tell you they don’t see any evidence for your beliefs? Is that them trying to convert you or convince you?

I have never told an atheist that their beliefs are silly or not valid. Ever. I just have my own deeply held beliefs. Atheists can believe as they wish, that’s an important part of being an American and it’s important to treat other people (even if I don’t agree with them) and their beliefs with respect.

Why do you have to tell other people you see no evidence for their beliefs?

Why do you get to say what your beliefs are and I do not? You didn’t answer that question.

You aren’t talking about your beliefs- you are talking about mine. Your beliefs are that my beliefs are wrong?

That there is no evidence for them. Yes that is my belief.

Why do you need evidence for my beliefs?

Hopefully I need evidence for any beliefs. But let’s try this: write out a sample conversation of you stating your beliefs and me replying. Write it out exactly how you think it should go.

No thanks. I respect your disbelief, have no judgment upon it, am glad we live in a country we can live as we choose. I don’t feel any need to prove to you or me or anyone else that I am right and you are wrong, or to examine why you believe as you do.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works

Your belief is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You believe that unless you see evidence for something that makes sense to you, everyone else is wrong.

My beliefs are what I think are important and what makes sense to me, brings me comfort, and yes, I believe the evidence I have seen that has led me to my religion. I do not believe anyone has to prove to anyone else they are right to live as they believe.

There is nothing that makes me happy, improves my life, or makes me more or less secure in my religion and life by asking you to provide me evidence to prove your beliefs are valid. You are not subject to my assessment of correctness.

You are an American citizen and due your right to believe or not believe as you choose.

I don’t understand how you feel you must approve everyone’s religion like a teacher grading a test…if people answer your questions right and give you evidence, you will allow their belief. If you feel you have the right or responsibility to inspect people’s beliefs and say anything other than you personally don’t believe, I think you are overstepping your boundaries.

More straw man. Don’t ascribe anything to me without asking. I’ll tell you my beliefs. Nearly everything you have ascribed to me is false.

So tell us your beliefs.

I already have, and you already know, but if you’d like me to repeat, I’ll be happy to:

I have seen no sufficient evidence supporting the existence of a god or gods. Therefore, I see no reason to believe in one. If I do see sufficient evidence of one, I will change my position accordingly.

We know you don’t have religious beliefs. What are your beliefs that do involving religion? No one expects you to have religious beliefs.

Forgive me, I assure I am being sincere, but I don’t understand your post, and if you could try again, and I will reply, I would appreciate it.

Morals?
Values?
Ethical codes?

Do you have any, and what are they?

People who don’t believe in religion still believe in something? Not a higher power. What gives your life meaning?

I think life itself gives itself meaning enough. Every single day. And the things within it. Of course, I have morals and values and ethical codes everybody does, and sometimes they differ.

But make no mistake. None of those things have anything to do with whether or not I believe a god or gods exist.

Ok, could you share what morals and values and ethical codes you believe in? That’s what I am interested in.

This is a religion forum, and I think we should restrict our discussion to that topic.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works.

What an epic fail. You think that was clever? You think that has any correlation to the post you copy? It doesn’t. Pathetic.

It’s strawman and non-sequitur yet again.

Now how about you present your evidence for your god?

Your entire personality is based upon hating religion, and demanding American citizens with constitutionally protected rights to believe and worship however they choose show you “evidence” of their beliefs.

Atheists are the biggest Karens of all time.

I don’t believe for a second you have any morals or values that are worth much, as you don’t respect the constitution and fancy yourself a self-appointed hall monitor, making demands for “evidence.” Then, when asked about your morals and values, you say it’s not necessary to discuss them- and nobody even asked you for evidence to prove your viewpoint. How about you list your morals, values, and ethics, and for each one provide a comprehensive piece of evidence to prove everything about them? We need to evaluate historical origin and take stock of your claims to assess value, make sure it’s an appropriate way to think and live.

So much wrong with your post:

No my entire personality is not based on hating religion.

I only ask for evidence when claims are made. No claim, no evidence required. Show evidence and I will change my mind. Easy peasy!

I don’t care what you think my values are. I am a good and kind and generous person . Your ad hominems don’t change that. This is the religion forum, as pointed out. Stay on topic and don’t straw man. Oh and the pejorative “karen” that you use is both sexist and stupid. But we’re not talking about values, including the poor ones you just demonstrated.

I’ll politely wait for your evidence.

What kind of evidence are you seeking? Like really, what would it look like? Are you imagining that you can someone find God physically somewhere? Find some mysterious wavelength that sounds like God? Some magical incantation that can help you channel God and perform miracles? Seriously, what qualitative kind of evidence are you seeking?

Any kind. The best you have.

The fact that the world exists? The fact that it is (and we assume it is) intelligible? The fact that all humans throughout history have strived for the divine (we have the God gene if you will)? The fact that only humans (vs other animals) are capable of such deep evil?

These are reasons people believe in God, not evidence of God's existence.

Here are some other reasons people believe: because of childhood indoctrination; because of fear of going to hell (which is also an unproven belief); because it feels good thinking that there's a guy in the sky looking out for you; because of fear of the consequences of even considering that there might not be a god; because it seems easier in a culture where the majority of people believe in god, or at least say they do.

Definition of evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

The fact that the world exists and is intelligible is fact/information indicating that someone/something with intelligence created it/formed it into being. And actually, the alternate belief that this world popped out of nowhere is so illogical it's more akin to believing in leprechauns. Imagine if you came upon anything well constructed thing in this world, that had intelligence and logic behind it. You would think someone made it, not that it just appeared out of thin air.

The fact that all humans across time and space have desired for God is a fact/information pointing to his existence (we can't long for something we don't know or that doesn't exist and no other animals have this longing). The fact that humans alone are capable of evil is a great mystery that only Christianity has a satisfying answer to, thus pointing to its truth. Of course, none of these definitively prove God's existence, but are definitely evidence. Evidence that you don't accept and that's ok. But again, they are evidence that point more to theism than atheism.

If you want believe, fine. Remember, it's faith, not facts or logic. Your pastor will tell you that. And the fact is that not "all humans" have desires for God. Many humans could never believe and many gave up the beliefs they were inculcated with in childhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

1) if you were walking in the wilderness and came across a well constructed fort, would you say that is evidence there is/was someone around who built it? Any answer other than yes is absurd.

This is the long disproved "watchmaker" argument. You know what a fort is and you've seen them made, so if you see a fort you know someone made it.

With this world view, which is fully pre-suppositional of a god's existence, name me something that is not designed.

What? There is nothing that is not designed?

Then you can't claim to see a difference between the two, now, can you. Logical fail. Again, the watchmaker theory disproved by others much smarter than I.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878

2) not sure what god of the gaps is, but religious longing has not waned with advancement of science. There are lots of hard core scientists from all fields who believe in God. And even if people have abandoned organized religion in our society, they have not abandoned spirituality, which for our purposes, is the same thing.

If you don't know what "god of the gaps" is, then you are very inexperienced in these kinds of arguments, and I politely suggest you read up on them more before making them. Again, these are long disproved fallacies by those much smarter than I.

"God of the gaps" is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

3) No, i have not seen a documentary on hippos. But I don't need to see one to know that animals do not commit atrocities and evils like humans do. Look at our history and read the news. Animals may kill, and often brutally, but they kill because they need to. We see animals evolve over time into more complex creatures, but we see no evidence of the evolution of evil (meaning, monkeys are not more evil than a lion or a spider or a virus). It is evidence of Christianity because Christianity has an explanation for this phenomenon, whereas atheism does not.

First, Atheism does not try to explain anything. Atheism is simply the position that there is insufficient evidence to believe in a god or gods. And hippos are entirely and 100% evil by anyone's definition as they will kill you for no reason whatsoever, and not because "they need to". They don't.

I look into the world objectively and look for the worldview that best explains what I see. And theism (specifically Christianity) does that better than atheism.

Does it matter to you if it is true or not, or just that it "explains it better"?

1) I don't see what watchman argument proves or disapproves. Everything I know is designed because a designer designed it. You argument for disproving it actually proves it imo. I have no trouble imagining the alternative, which is that the world simply doesn't exist. Or that it isn't consistent or coherent. Maybe you lack imagination, but it's really not that hard to imagine.

2) I may not have heard the term god of gaps because I don't focus my life on atheist verbiage but I think I addressed this argument already. Religion/spirituality has not disappeared with advancement of science and logically the two do not address the same set of questions.

3) I'm not sure what your obsession with hippos are, but if you are seriously saying that hippos can rival human evil, then you are not to be taken seriously because you are willing to be intellectually dishonest to support your favored conclusion.

If theism explains the world better, that fact itself affects the likelihood of theism being true. That is how we form conclusions in any other area of our lives. We look at the facts, and go with the hypothesis that explains those facts the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

1) if you were walking in the wilderness and came across a well constructed fort, would you say that is evidence there is/was someone around who built it? Any answer other than yes is absurd.

This is the long disproved "watchmaker" argument. You know what a fort is and you've seen them made, so if you see a fort you know someone made it.

With this world view, which is fully pre-suppositional of a god's existence, name me something that is not designed.

What? There is nothing that is not designed?

Then you can't claim to see a difference between the two, now, can you. Logical fail. Again, the watchmaker theory disproved by others much smarter than I.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878

2) not sure what god of the gaps is, but religious longing has not waned with advancement of science. There are lots of hard core scientists from all fields who believe in God. And even if people have abandoned organized religion in our society, they have not abandoned spirituality, which for our purposes, is the same thing.

If you don't know what "god of the gaps" is, then you are very inexperienced in these kinds of arguments, and I politely suggest you read up on them more before making them. Again, these are long disproved fallacies by those much smarter than I.

"God of the gaps" is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

3) No, i have not seen a documentary on hippos. But I don't need to see one to know that animals do not commit atrocities and evils like humans do. Look at our history and read the news. Animals may kill, and often brutally, but they kill because they need to. We see animals evolve over time into more complex creatures, but we see no evidence of the evolution of evil (meaning, monkeys are not more evil than a lion or a spider or a virus). It is evidence of Christianity because Christianity has an explanation for this phenomenon, whereas atheism does not.

First, Atheism does not try to explain anything. Atheism is simply the position that there is insufficient evidence to believe in a god or gods. And hippos are entirely and 100% evil by anyone's definition as they will kill you for no reason whatsoever, and not because "they need to". They don't.

I look into the world objectively and look for the worldview that best explains what I see. And theism (specifically Christianity) does that better than atheism.

Does it matter to you if it is true or not, or just that it "explains it better"?

1) I don't see what watchman argument proves or disapproves. Everything I know is designed because a designer designed it. You argument for disproving it actually proves it imo. I have no trouble imagining the alternative, which is that the world simply doesn't exist. Or that it isn't consistent or coherent. Maybe you lack imagination, but it's really not that hard to imagine.

2) I may not have heard the term god of gaps because I don't focus my life on atheist verbiage but I think I addressed this argument already. Religion/spirituality has not disappeared with advancement of science and logically the two do not address the same set of questions.

3) I'm not sure what your obsession with hippos are, but if you are seriously saying that hippos can rival human evil, then you are not to be taken seriously because you are willing to be intellectually dishonest to support your favored conclusion.

If theism explains the world better, that fact itself affects the likelihood of theism being true. That is how we form conclusions in any other area of our lives. We look at the facts, and go with the hypothesis that explains those facts the best.

How odd -- usually religious people go by faith and don't try to prove anything. Faith is a feeling. Some people have it in abundance. Some not at all. Other have it, then drop it along the way

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Atheism is a personal decision, and just because you don’t think there is enough evidence to believe in God, doesn’t mean other people don’t personally have enough evidence to believe in God.

That’s the thing that gets me: nobody has to believe in God. You don’t think there is a God, bully for you. But your decision doesn’t mean other people can’t believe in God.

People here have multiple cows because they think people are “proselytizing,” but them will post multiple times asking for Christians to give evidence and prove God to them . How about live your God free life not thinking about God 24/7/365? If you were really happy and fulfilled and busy in your life, you’d not spend more time debating and thinking about God than many Christian people.

Look who's talking!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

1) if you were walking in the wilderness and came across a well constructed fort, would you say that is evidence there is/was someone around who built it? Any answer other than yes is absurd.

This is the long disproved "watchmaker" argument. You know what a fort is and you've seen them made, so if you see a fort you know someone made it.

With this world view, which is fully pre-suppositional of a god's existence, name me something that is not designed.

What? There is nothing that is not designed?

Then you can't claim to see a difference between the two, now, can you. Logical fail. Again, the watchmaker theory disproved by others much smarter than I.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878

2) not sure what god of the gaps is, but religious longing has not waned with advancement of science. There are lots of hard core scientists from all fields who believe in God. And even if people have abandoned organized religion in our society, they have not abandoned spirituality, which for our purposes, is the same thing.

If you don't know what "god of the gaps" is, then you are very inexperienced in these kinds of arguments, and I politely suggest you read up on them more before making them. Again, these are long disproved fallacies by those much smarter than I.

"God of the gaps" is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

3) No, i have not seen a documentary on hippos. But I don't need to see one to know that animals do not commit atrocities and evils like humans do. Look at our history and read the news. Animals may kill, and often brutally, but they kill because they need to. We see animals evolve over time into more complex creatures, but we see no evidence of the evolution of evil (meaning, monkeys are not more evil than a lion or a spider or a virus). It is evidence of Christianity because Christianity has an explanation for this phenomenon, whereas atheism does not.

First, Atheism does not try to explain anything. Atheism is simply the position that there is insufficient evidence to believe in a god or gods. And hippos are entirely and 100% evil by anyone's definition as they will kill you for no reason whatsoever, and not because "they need to". They don't.

I look into the world objectively and look for the worldview that best explains what I see. And theism (specifically Christianity) does that better than atheism.

Does it matter to you if it is true or not, or just that it "explains it better"?

Adding that if you are the previous poster who asked for evidence, I've given the evidence that I think support theism that can be universally understood (there are other types of evidence that are not so easily shared because they are based on personal experience, which you would automatically discount anyways but that is a whole other discussion). The single biggest evidence, imo, is human exceptionalism. In our goodness, in our evilness, in our search for meaning, everything that we ordinarily define as "most human" hints at something beyond this world. Evil, the way humans are capable of it, simply doesn't exist elsewhere in the natural world. Human search for transcendence (through music, art, living a moral life, etc) also simply doesn't exist elsewhere nor is it really necessary for anything. For me, all that is evidence that there is a missing key in the mystery that is the human race, pointing to something beyond and outside of this natural world.

But again, this is not conclusive evidence nor will there ever be. The smaller reality (this world) cannot prove conclusively the existence of the bigger reality, that is just logic, because we cannot contain that bigger reality, in our world, in our ways of measuring reality, in our own minds. The best evidence we can have are things that don't quite fit well in this reality, that long for things outside of this reality.

Honestly I used to think like you. Sometimes religious belief is like those visual puzzles where you only see on possible thing at one point, but then something changes and suddenly you see the second image and you can't believe you never saw it before even though you were staring at the exact same picture. In the same way, you and I can look at the same facts and I can see it as concrete (though not conclusive) evidence of the existence of God and yet you see nothing but wishful thinking.

[Anonymous]

1) I don't see what watchman argument proves or disapproves. Everything I know is designed because a designer designed it.

See? Your position is everything is designed, therefore you can't tell a watch's origin from a rock's. Your pre-supposition was that there was a designer. How does that prove anything?

You argument for disproving it actually proves it imo. I have no trouble imagining the alternative, which is that the world simply doesn't exist.

Those are the only 2 possibilities? That the earth was designed or doesn't exist? There are no other possibilities, such as natural ones? Don't you see the gigantic flaw here?

2) I may not have heard the term god of gaps because I don't focus my life on atheist verbiage but I think I addressed this argument already. Religion/spirituality has not disappeared with advancement of science and logically the two do not address the same set of questions.

Sorry, religion and spirituality (whatever the heck that is) has absolutely decreased with the advancement of science. People no longer believe thunder is caused by Odin's bolts, or that god created earth at the center of the universe. This is really an unsupportable claim you are making.

3) I'm not sure what your obsession with hippos are, but if you are seriously saying that hippos can rival human evil, then you are not to be taken seriously because you are willing to be intellectually dishonest to support your favored conclusion.

I'm admittedly kind of having fun with the hippos thing, but if you prefer you can consider the parasites that bore themselves into people's eyes and eat them, which, according to you, was designed by your god. Now that's some seriously evil stuff right there.

https://www.cnet.com/science/meet-the-parasite-that-can-burrow-its-way-into-the-human-eye/

If theism explains the world better, that fact itself affects the likelihood of theism being true. That is how we form conclusions in any other area of our lives. We look at the facts, and go with the hypothesis that explains those facts the best.

As explained before, and ignored by you, atheism does not attempt to explain anything. As asked before, and ignored by you, Does it matter to you if it is true or not, or just that it "explains it better"?

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Anonymous wrote:It’s a cop out answer, OP. Easier than offering you help in ways that might give you more time to go to therapy, exercise, et al. She could make a few healthy meals and drop off, or watch your kids for a few hours.

Do you really believe that a few healthy meals can help with clinical depression? OP said she has been in therapy for years. Few more sessions will not make a difference.

And finding Jesus will make a difference?

Some people continue learning from therapy and should not drop it because of a stranger on the internet or a friend pushing a religious cure.

Yes. Finding Jesus does make a difference. Bonus - it costs way less than any therapy!

You are part of the problem.

You are funny. OP's problem don't come from people who live happy and content life. OP's problems come from people like you who convinced that living with depression is normal. Your soul is like a jar, it cannot remain empty. If you don't fill it in with a light, it will be filled with a darkness. And to fill it with the light, you have to take action. The good thing is that OP has the choice of how to fill it.

I sort of agree with that. If all the therapists and medications and treatments have failed? If you have struggled with depression your entire life, tried every possible treatment and multiple medications, had many different psychiatric interventions, and modern treatments and medications have failed you?

You can’t just stay in the dark of depression your entire life. Try something different. You have to try, for yourself and your loved ones.

It’s gross to suggest a person suffers for decades and dies in mental agony and doesn’t try to live a better quality of life for their own happiness.

So, what the hell, OP-- try religion. and if that doesn't work, too bad - Christians will tell you that you just need to keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are speaking for Christians in the absence of the need to do so. I have two suggestions, that either your parents either neglected to teach you, or you were taught, but refuse to abide by:

1. Don’t generalize, especially about people, especially about their deeply held, deeply personal beliefs

2. Don’t speak for a person, or group of people. Let people speak for themselves.

I choose to believe your parents taught you these lessons, and you just need a simple reminder to implement them to be a kind, socially responsible citizen.

No simple reminder needed. Just keep trying to believe and Jesus eventually will save you.

You are toxic. You speak for Christianity when you are not a Christian. You think I need your permission to worship Jesus and His Salvation is a joke? Why do you care how I or anyone else conducts their worship and faith in America- a place founded on complete religious freedom?

There are so many toxic posters here who cannot accept religious freedom is a huge part of being an American. It’s good we can worship as we wish. It makes us the envy of the world.

I believe Americans who are so un-American as to not believe in freedom of religion and do not tolerate freedom of religion should either learn to be respectful of our laws and values and morals, or find a new home in a country that limits the expression and freedom of religion, so they can live peaceful and happy lives.

Google the countries that restrict religion and religious practices and go there…you won’t have to live in a country with religious freedom. It would be better than spending your life obsessively watching religious people, telling religious people their faith is wrong, and speaking for the Christianity you despise so deeply.

It’s very sad to live your life hating something (Christianity) so much. It will be very hard for you your entire life, because religious freedom is not going away. We will continue to worship, pray, speak about our faith, and shine brightly as lights representing God in our communities.

As the saying goes, sucks to be you, but I’d never say that to you seriously. I believe your anger and obsessive hostility and venom against Christianity and Christians comes from irrational fear, self-loathing, and hatred for yourself. No one can hate other people without cause without self-hatred.

So when you post such uncalled for and hateful things, I know it’s coming from a bitter and angry and scared place of self-hatred. Prayers to you. Jesus will save you, too.

Wow - talk about anger and hostility! Two simple sentences encouraging belief inspire paragraphs of attack language. It's so unlike Christ that it's hard to believe an actual Christian would say such things.

You aren’t serious, just trolling because looking in the mirror hurts.

pp must not be a good Christian. A good Christian would not say such hateful things. Even to a stranger on the Internet.

There are no good Christians.

You are a hateful and bigoted anti-theist. An atheist simply doesn’t believe or care about religion or God. Anti-theists actively and obsessively hate religion, religious people, etc.

So tell me, are there good Jewish people? Good Muslim people? Are any religious people good?

That’s not a real post and you know it. Don’t feed the trolls.

I see many posts here claiming that religion, religious people, Christianity specifically, is bad. That Christianity and Christians are mean and harmful to people and for America.

Despite America being founded on absolute freedom to worship however an American desires. Despite every American president coming from a Christian faith tradition; despite the majority of our current elected officials professing a Christian faith, and publicly expressing their Christian belief and attending church, as President Biden and his wife and family do.

If you do not like Christianity, pp, and you think there are no good Christians, there are countries that limit the practice of Christianity and in which being a Christian is severely restricted.


Global Restrictions on Religion


https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2009/12/restrictions-fullreport1-1.pdf

Pew has a comprehensive reporting on this very topic.

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If you are an American that is an anti-theist, and actively dislikes religion, opposes the free exercise of religion and believes religion is harmful, you have places to flee to.

If you want to live in a country that represents your thoughts on restricting religion, Pew shows you who you identify with and what government you would feel comfortable living under.

Straw man yet again. Yes, many negative things about religion are mentioned here, as they should be. But no one has claimed all religious people are bad so stop saying that. And as for wanting a country that restricts religion, the constitution has spoken on that.

There just isn’t compelling evidence a god exists. That’s the entire atheist position. Don’t ascribe any more to it. And try and spot those troll posts before you reply to them. They are not real.

Atheists simply choose to say they don’t believe in God. They don’t get any say in how other people feel about God, including God’s existence, or the personal relationship a person may choose to have via their religious beliefs, with God.

Your personal feelings about God do not impact anyone else’s regarding the existence of God.

Your atheism is how you view the world for you- not the rest of us.

Here you go straw manning again, arguing against positions no one has made.

The facts are you have it exactly backwards, and it is the religious that preach what will happen if we don’t believe, and the nonreligious that simply say what they believe, which is that there isn’t compelling evidence for a God but if you show us some, we will change our position.

What would make you change your position?

What is your faith that God does not exist based on?

DP It's not faith. It's lack of evidence

Plenty of people see evidence of God.

There are no scientific tests or measures to prove or disprove God’s existence.

Why can’t the original pp answer?

I remember a line in Angels and Demons, the movie. A priest asks Tom Hanks's character "Do you believe in God?" And he says something like "No, father, that's a gift I never received." (or something pretty close to that). It always fascinates me how some people are susceptible to this belief (and can abandon common sense) and some just aren't. I wonder if it's genetic. Some people may have the "believer gene" and some just don't."

Tom Hank’s movies are indeed incredible. Basing life choices off of lines written for Tom Hanks, by screenwriters, for Hanks to speak, to make money, is just amazing, friend.

Whether or not God exists cannot be definitely proven. If you don’t believe, that’s your choice, but your disbelief doesn’t negate anyone else’s belief, and vice versa.

Same goes for all the other Gods and imaginary characters throughout history

Constructive conversation between those of different faiths, and believers/nonbelievers, is appropriate. People who just want to stand up and decree why their belief is correct and everyone else is wrong- that’s the problem.

agreed. Hard to do, though if religious believers want to convert people to their particular version of Religion and non-believers want to tell believers how silly religion is.

Often just speaking about your religious beliefs is considered trying to convert someone, which is false.

I can say I believe in God, He created the world, and Jesus Christ is my personal Savior.

That doesn’t make anyone else have to believe as I do.

I have a right to express my religious beliefs. Does doing so convert anyone?

So, do you extend the same freedom to people who tell you they don’t see any evidence for your beliefs? Is that them trying to convert you or convince you?

I have never told an atheist that their beliefs are silly or not valid. Ever. I just have my own deeply held beliefs. Atheists can believe as they wish, that’s an important part of being an American and it’s important to treat other people (even if I don’t agree with them) and their beliefs with respect.

Why do you have to tell other people you see no evidence for their beliefs?

Why do you get to say what your beliefs are and I do not? You didn’t answer that question.

You aren’t talking about your beliefs- you are talking about mine. Your beliefs are that my beliefs are wrong?

That there is no evidence for them. Yes that is my belief.

Why do you need evidence for my beliefs?

Hopefully I need evidence for any beliefs. But let’s try this: write out a sample conversation of you stating your beliefs and me replying. Write it out exactly how you think it should go.

No thanks. I respect your disbelief, have no judgment upon it, am glad we live in a country we can live as we choose. I don’t feel any need to prove to you or me or anyone else that I am right and you are wrong, or to examine why you believe as you do.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works

Your belief is that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You believe that unless you see evidence for something that makes sense to you, everyone else is wrong.

My beliefs are what I think are important and what makes sense to me, brings me comfort, and yes, I believe the evidence I have seen that has led me to my religion. I do not believe anyone has to prove to anyone else they are right to live as they believe.

There is nothing that makes me happy, improves my life, or makes me more or less secure in my religion and life by asking you to provide me evidence to prove your beliefs are valid. You are not subject to my assessment of correctness.

You are an American citizen and due your right to believe or not believe as you choose.

I don’t understand how you feel you must approve everyone’s religion like a teacher grading a test…if people answer your questions right and give you evidence, you will allow their belief. If you feel you have the right or responsibility to inspect people’s beliefs and say anything other than you personally don’t believe, I think you are overstepping your boundaries.

More straw man. Don’t ascribe anything to me without asking. I’ll tell you my beliefs. Nearly everything you have ascribed to me is false.

So tell us your beliefs.

I already have, and you already know, but if you’d like me to repeat, I’ll be happy to:

I have seen no sufficient evidence supporting the existence of a god or gods. Therefore, I see no reason to believe in one. If I do see sufficient evidence of one, I will change my position accordingly.

We know you don’t have religious beliefs. What are your beliefs that do involving religion? No one expects you to have religious beliefs.

Forgive me, I assure I am being sincere, but I don’t understand your post, and if you could try again, and I will reply, I would appreciate it.

Morals?
Values?
Ethical codes?

Do you have any, and what are they?

People who don’t believe in religion still believe in something? Not a higher power. What gives your life meaning?

I think life itself gives itself meaning enough. Every single day. And the things within it. Of course, I have morals and values and ethical codes everybody does, and sometimes they differ.

But make no mistake. None of those things have anything to do with whether or not I believe a god or gods exist.

Ok, could you share what morals and values and ethical codes you believe in? That’s what I am interested in.

This is a religion forum, and I think we should restrict our discussion to that topic.

I’m not surprised you won’t do that.

It’s because you want it where you can say what you think but no one can disagree.

Sorry not how it works.

What an epic fail. You think that was clever? You think that has any correlation to the post you copy? It doesn’t. Pathetic.

It’s strawman and non-sequitur yet again.

Now how about you present your evidence for your god?

Your entire personality is based upon hating religion, and demanding American citizens with constitutionally protected rights to believe and worship however they choose show you “evidence” of their beliefs.

Atheists are the biggest Karens of all time.

I don’t believe for a second you have any morals or values that are worth much, as you don’t respect the constitution and fancy yourself a self-appointed hall monitor, making demands for “evidence.” Then, when asked about your morals and values, you say it’s not necessary to discuss them- and nobody even asked you for evidence to prove your viewpoint. How about you list your morals, values, and ethics, and for each one provide a comprehensive piece of evidence to prove everything about them? We need to evaluate historical origin and take stock of your claims to assess value, make sure it’s an appropriate way to think and live.

So much wrong with your post:

No my entire personality is not based on hating religion.

I only ask for evidence when claims are made. No claim, no evidence required. Show evidence and I will change my mind. Easy peasy!

I don’t care what you think my values are. I am a good and kind and generous person . Your ad hominems don’t change that. This is the religion forum, as pointed out. Stay on topic and don’t straw man. Oh and the pejorative “karen” that you use is both sexist and stupid. But we’re not talking about values, including the poor ones you just demonstrated.

I’ll politely wait for your evidence.

Need evidence to prove you are a good, kind, and generous person, as you claim to be.

I’ll politely wait for your evidence.

I have a lot of friends and family that love me, I give substantially to charities, both my money and my time, I obey the law and civil conventions, the list goes on and on.

Mostly, it’s because I want to be one and I try to be on every day. I’m certainly not perfect and there’s days I fall short.

OK your turn. What is the evidence for your God?

You know that none of your claims are verifiable, right?

Your post is evidence only you post online in this forum. It provides evidence for nothing else. Several pps have pointed that out.

Wrong again! They are 100% all verifiable. You can talk to people who know me, see receipts, see things I have done, do a background check. All verifiable.

How are your claims verifiable?

Theoretically they are verifiable. But you won’t post personal information for this evidence here so we can verify it, so it’s not really evidence.

It’s still just your unverified claims.

Unverified is not the same thing as unverifiable. Do you understand that?

I am sure we could find a way to connect and you could verify facts about me. As long as you agreed to match the single largest charitable donation I made last year to the same charity, which was the Make-A-Wish foundation once you verified I did it. And you mea culpa here.

Game?

No, I am definitely not game. I would advise you to never give your personal information to anyone online. Ever. This is pp, declining. If anyone contacts you somehow and says hey it’s me from dcum religion forum give me your info, rest assured, it’s not me. I have zero shame in declining this. It’s nuts, to be honest.

In context:

No, I am definitely not game.

Yah, no surprise you are unwilling to put your money where your mouth is.

I have zero shame in declining this. It’s nuts, to be honest.

Oh, really? Then why did you make this claim then:

But you won’t post personal information for this evidence here so we can verify it, so it’s not really evidence.

This is known as "having your bluff called", and I genuinely hope you don't play actual poker. You made the claim and the challenge. You failed. You now wear the chickenshirt.

Please don't lose the main point among all this super fun (for me) exchange: The difference between unverified and unverifiable.

Your claims of a god existing are unverifiable. Just like the claim Leprechauns exist is unverifiable. So unless there is sufficient evidence to believe in your god, or Leprechauns, there is no reason to, and it is why you don't believe in Leprechauns.

People scam each other and give each other fake names and false information all the time. I don’t know how old you are, but don’t ever give anyone information online.

Lol. Remember, you were the one who challenged me:

But you won’t post personal information for this evidence here so we can verify it, so it’s not really evidence.

Everyone can see what's what here. I'll repeat: Please don't lose the main point among all this super fun (for me) exchange: The difference between unverified and unverifiable. Your claims of a god existing are unverifiable. Just like the claim Leprechauns exist is unverifiable. So unless there is sufficient evidence to believe in your god, or Leprechauns, there is no reason to, and it is why you don't believe in Leprechauns.

You really keep missing the boat. Absence of evidence is not absence of evidence. Choosing not to believe is a belief not supported by the evidence, of which there is none. God and leprechauns included.

I'll ask again: do you believe in Leprechauns?

A: No, you do not. Of course not.

But you put your god in the same category. So why do you believe in one and not the other?

DP -- because one offers eternal life and the other does not; because one is believed in by many other adults and the other is not; because people are conditioned to continue believing in one as adults and into rejecting belief in the other as children.

This is a child’s thought process.