Which universities have gone DOWN in stature over the years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

While I agree with most of your premise, the bolded above is incorrect. Williams snd Rice are both 9% acceptance rates and USC is 12%. Williams is still
superior to both as reflected in their higher average GPAs and test scores of accepted students.

Thanks for catching - i think i was going off outdated data.
The current USNWR says the acceptance rate at Williams is 15% compared to 11% at Rice and 11% at Tulane (swapping out for USC). Rice and Tulane are excellent schools, but i'd agree at the undergraduate level Williams is probably superior, as reflected not just in higher average GPAs and test scores for accepted students as you note, but also in the 'Peer Assessment' section of the USNWR ranking where US News polls other university administrators what they think (the 'expert opinion': for Williams, 4.7 of 5; for Rice, 4.1; for Tulane, 3.6). And yet, Rice and Tulane now attract a greater number of applicants relative to available spaces than Williams (or Amherst -- peer assessment of 4.6) does - which I think reinforces the notion that the biases of USNWR's university-centric methodology, compounded over the past four decades, have created and perpetuated market failures in higher education admissions.

And the ones who are being harmed by these market failures aren't the schools themselves but the applicants. Whose families, either because of poor information or the effects of the DCUM echo chamber and others like it, have a misguided sense that USNWR's ranking = educational quality. (If anything, the peer assessment and alumni income - which cut across USNWR's artificial distinctions between "universities" and "colleges" and "national" vs "regional" -- are probably the more reliable measures.) How have educators been complicit in allowing such a flawed USNWR system come to play such a disproportionate role in college admissions?

I wonder about the extent to which USNWR consumers equate its rankings with educational quality. I think most view it simply as a rough measure of prestige. By rough, I mean they see Princeton at the top, but know that a school like Harvard is still more prestigious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is an obvious answer.

Ranking drop from 32 -> 38.
Acceptance rate went from 33% to 42%, higher than large publics like UT Austin and UMD. While large publics like Berkeley are reaching single-digit acceptance rates, W&M's is increasing.

Student enrollment has increased.

Their law school has gone completely downhill.

W&M used to be more difficult to get into than UVA, due to a smaller number seats. It had higher SAT scores than UVA, the highest among publics comparable to Berkley. It was compared to the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth/Brown and SLACs like Swarthmore. It attracted out-of-staters and wealthy internationals that would never consider a large public for OOS tuition, but would consider W&M due to the size and feel.

Nowadays, UVA is far more tougher to get in, has far higher SAT scores and far great national and international reach.

Per most recent CDS:

UVA 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1330-1490
W&M 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1360-1520

both have average GPAs of 4.3.

Perhaps W&M’s higher acceptance rate is a function of some other factor other than the caliber of students they attract. Maybe since UVA and has more prominent sports and a better college town and is bigger it appeals to more kids who apply that are more borderline. W&M is bit more niche in that it a very small public, so more like a SLAC. Williamsburg is pretty sleepy too.

Maybe, just maybe, acceptance rate is not a good indication of how good a school is at any rate.

NNo they don't., the GPA of the actual class that enrolled at UVA last fall had a 4.52 at the 75th percentile, a 4.39 at the median and a 4.23 for the bottom 25th percentile. W&M's student profile runs lower: 4.50 at the 75th, 4.30 at the 50th and a 4.08 at the bottom 25th.


UVA also beats W&M wiht ACT scores, the 74th/50th/30th percentiles are 35/34/32 for UVA and for W&M the ACTSare 34/33/31

At the 75th percentile, SAT score/GPA is 1520/4.50 at W&M and 1510/4.52 at UVA. Virtually the same. The difference in the last couple of years has been at the lower half, with UVA higher. It used to be the opposite if you look at SCHEV historical data. When W&M had higher average SAT scores than UVA, I did not think UVA is in decline. I just think there are trends that play out over some period of time and then new trends emerge. W&M needs to get more applicants to better fill out the bottom half stats.

In USNEWS rankings, both UVA and W&M have been hurt by the inclusion of the social mobility metrics based on Pell Grant recipients. Both schools are relatively low in percentage of students receiving Pell Grants particularly compared to schools in other states like the UC universities. Outside of that, the big movers in USNWR in my recollection have been private universities (Chicago, Vanderbilt, Northeastern, etc.) They seem to have more levers to pull in rankings than public schools.

They are not virtually the same. UVA is higher in 8 categories than W&M. Also you conveniently didn't address the ACT issue. ACT scores get exponentially more difficult to get closer to the top of the pyramid. A 36 is achieved by only 3,655 - 4,4,044 (changes every year) of the 1.6M taking the test, or .313% of the students taking it. A 35 is only 11,983 students .925% of test applicants nationwide. The fact that the 75th percentile of enrolled student at UVA has a 35 or better is astounding. W&M can boast only a 34 taps into a different level below. Here's the chart


ACT Score # of Students Percentage of All Test Takers
36 4,055 0.313%
35 11,983 0.925%
34 15,875 1.226%
33 18,424 1.422%

ACT is not very fine grained, so W&M could have 35 ACT at the 76th percentile, but 34 at the 75th percentile. UVA just went from 34 to 35 at this past year, so they were probably at 35 at close to 75th last year. SAT is more fine grained in score.

But it doesn't. I think you lost this argument, but by all means, contiue to argue!

How can I lose an argument you don't even understand?

[Anonymous]

Univ of VA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard, Brown, Dartmouth, Berkeley and Cornell have gone down.

Columbia, Hopkins, U Chicago, Stanford, Rice, MIT, CalTech came up.

Oh, you! First by assuming "stature" is a thing that matters and can be put on a scale. Second by starting your list with "Harvard" which literally has been the generic term for the #1 college since it's inception in 1636.

You silly person! Just stop!

Brown, Dartmouth, Berkeley down. Cornell down too (just look at rankings)

UP: JHU, Stanford and Chicago

Strange.... Cornell has gone up in Forbes, WSJ and every global university ranking over the last 10 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is an obvious answer.

Ranking drop from 32 -> 38.
Acceptance rate went from 33% to 42%, higher than large publics like UT Austin and UMD. While large publics like Berkeley are reaching single-digit acceptance rates, W&M's is increasing.

Student enrollment has increased.

Their law school has gone completely downhill.

W&M used to be more difficult to get into than UVA, due to a smaller number seats. It had higher SAT scores than UVA, the highest among publics comparable to Berkley. It was compared to the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth/Brown and SLACs like Swarthmore. It attracted out-of-staters and wealthy internationals that would never consider a large public for OOS tuition, but would consider W&M due to the size and feel.

Nowadays, UVA is far more tougher to get in, has far higher SAT scores and far great national and international reach.

Per most recent CDS:

UVA 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1330-1490
W&M 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1360-1520

both have average GPAs of 4.3.

Perhaps W&M’s higher acceptance rate is a function of some other factor other than the caliber of students they attract. Maybe since UVA and has more prominent sports and a better college town and is bigger it appeals to more kids who apply that are more borderline. W&M is bit more niche in that it a very small public, so more like a SLAC. Williamsburg is pretty sleepy too.

Maybe, just maybe, acceptance rate is not a good indication of how good a school is at any rate.

NNo they don't., the GPA of the actual class that enrolled at UVA last fall had a 4.52 at the 75th percentile, a 4.39 at the median and a 4.23 for the bottom 25th percentile. W&M's student profile runs lower: 4.50 at the 75th, 4.30 at the 50th and a 4.08 at the bottom 25th.


UVA also beats W&M wiht ACT scores, the 74th/50th/30th percentiles are 35/34/32 for UVA and for W&M the ACTSare 34/33/31

At the 75th percentile, SAT score/GPA is 1520/4.50 at W&M and 1510/4.52 at UVA. Virtually the same. The difference in the last couple of years has been at the lower half, with UVA higher. It used to be the opposite if you look at SCHEV historical data. When W&M had higher average SAT scores than UVA, I did not think UVA is in decline. I just think there are trends that play out over some period of time and then new trends emerge. W&M needs to get more applicants to better fill out the bottom half stats.

In USNEWS rankings, both UVA and W&M have been hurt by the inclusion of the social mobility metrics based on Pell Grant recipients. Both schools are relatively low in percentage of students receiving Pell Grants particularly compared to schools in other states like the UC universities. Outside of that, the big movers in USNWR in my recollection have been private universities (Chicago, Vanderbilt, Northeastern, etc.) They seem to have more levers to pull in rankings than public schools.

They are not virtually the same. UVA is higher in 8 categories than W&M. Also you conveniently didn't address the ACT issue. ACT scores get exponentially more difficult to get closer to the top of the pyramid. A 36 is achieved by only 3,655 - 4,4,044 (changes every year) of the 1.6M taking the test, or .313% of the students taking it. A 35 is only 11,983 students .925% of test applicants nationwide. The fact that the 75th percentile of enrolled student at UVA has a 35 or better is astounding. W&M can boast only a 34 taps into a different level below. Here's the chart


ACT Score # of Students Percentage of All Test Takers
36 4,055 0.313%
35 11,983 0.925%
34 15,875 1.226%
33 18,424 1.422%

Keep in mind that only about 20% of students at UVA submit the ACT (vs 50% for SAT) . So 25% of that number scoring 35 or higher (75th percentile) could be as few as 210 students (out of the 16,000 or so nationally) for Fall 2021 class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Georgetown and Dartmouth

+1

[Anonymous]

I can’t think of a school which has declined more in the rankings than Oberlin. It is a poor value today as well. You can draw your own conclusions as to why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is an obvious answer.

Ranking drop from 32 -> 38.
Acceptance rate went from 33% to 42%, higher than large publics like UT Austin and UMD. While large publics like Berkeley are reaching single-digit acceptance rates, W&M's is increasing.

Student enrollment has increased.

Their law school has gone completely downhill.

W&M used to be more difficult to get into than UVA, due to a smaller number seats. It had higher SAT scores than UVA, the highest among publics comparable to Berkley. It was compared to the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth/Brown and SLACs like Swarthmore. It attracted out-of-staters and wealthy internationals that would never consider a large public for OOS tuition, but would consider W&M due to the size and feel.

Nowadays, UVA is far more tougher to get in, has far higher SAT scores and far great national and international reach.

Per most recent CDS:

UVA 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1330-1490
W&M 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1360-1520

both have average GPAs of 4.3.

Perhaps W&M’s higher acceptance rate is a function of some other factor other than the caliber of students they attract. Maybe since UVA and has more prominent sports and a better college town and is bigger it appeals to more kids who apply that are more borderline. W&M is bit more niche in that it a very small public, so more like a SLAC. Williamsburg is pretty sleepy too.

Maybe, just maybe, acceptance rate is not a good indication of how good a school is at any rate.

NNo they don't., the GPA of the actual class that enrolled at UVA last fall had a 4.52 at the 75th percentile, a 4.39 at the median and a 4.23 for the bottom 25th percentile. W&M's student profile runs lower: 4.50 at the 75th, 4.30 at the 50th and a 4.08 at the bottom 25th.


UVA also beats W&M wiht ACT scores, the 74th/50th/30th percentiles are 35/34/32 for UVA and for W&M the ACTSare 34/33/31

At the 75th percentile, SAT score/GPA is 1520/4.50 at W&M and 1510/4.52 at UVA. Virtually the same. The difference in the last couple of years has been at the lower half, with UVA higher. It used to be the opposite if you look at SCHEV historical data. When W&M had higher average SAT scores than UVA, I did not think UVA is in decline. I just think there are trends that play out over some period of time and then new trends emerge. W&M needs to get more applicants to better fill out the bottom half stats.

In USNEWS rankings, both UVA and W&M have been hurt by the inclusion of the social mobility metrics based on Pell Grant recipients. Both schools are relatively low in percentage of students receiving Pell Grants particularly compared to schools in other states like the UC universities. Outside of that, the big movers in USNWR in my recollection have been private universities (Chicago, Vanderbilt, Northeastern, etc.) They seem to have more levers to pull in rankings than public schools.

They are not virtually the same. UVA is higher in 8 categories than W&M. Also you conveniently didn't address the ACT issue. ACT scores get exponentially more difficult to get closer to the top of the pyramid. A 36 is achieved by only 3,655 - 4,4,044 (changes every year) of the 1.6M taking the test, or .313% of the students taking it. A 35 is only 11,983 students .925% of test applicants nationwide. The fact that the 75th percentile of enrolled student at UVA has a 35 or better is astounding. W&M can boast only a 34 taps into a different level below. Here's the chart


ACT Score # of Students Percentage of All Test Takers
36 4,055 0.313%
35 11,983 0.925%
34 15,875 1.226%
33 18,424 1.422%

Keep in mind that only about 20% of students at UVA submit the ACT (vs 50% for SAT) . So 25% of that number scoring 35 or higher (75th percentile) could be as few as 210 students (out of the 16,000 or so nationally) for Fall 2021 class.

+1. And that does not even factor in the kids who submitted both the SAT and the ACT. I don’t have a dog in this hunts and don’t really care which is better. I’d be thrilled if DC got into either. But for the PP dead set on proving UVA is far superior, I just don’t see it. At margins based on pure stats, maybe slightly. But W&M has its own advantages too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is an obvious answer.

Ranking drop from 32 -> 38.
Acceptance rate went from 33% to 42%, higher than large publics like UT Austin and UMD. While large publics like Berkeley are reaching single-digit acceptance rates, W&M's is increasing.

Student enrollment has increased.

Their law school has gone completely downhill.

W&M used to be more difficult to get into than UVA, due to a smaller number seats. It had higher SAT scores than UVA, the highest among publics comparable to Berkley. It was compared to the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth/Brown and SLACs like Swarthmore. It attracted out-of-staters and wealthy internationals that would never consider a large public for OOS tuition, but would consider W&M due to the size and feel.

Nowadays, UVA is far more tougher to get in, has far higher SAT scores and far great national and international reach.

Per most recent CDS:

UVA 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1330-1490
W&M 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1360-1520

both have average GPAs of 4.3.

Perhaps W&M’s higher acceptance rate is a function of some other factor other than the caliber of students they attract. Maybe since UVA and has more prominent sports and a better college town and is bigger it appeals to more kids who apply that are more borderline. W&M is bit more niche in that it a very small public, so more like a SLAC. Williamsburg is pretty sleepy too.

Maybe, just maybe, acceptance rate is not a good indication of how good a school is at any rate.

NNo they don't., the GPA of the actual class that enrolled at UVA last fall had a 4.52 at the 75th percentile, a 4.39 at the median and a 4.23 for the bottom 25th percentile. W&M's student profile runs lower: 4.50 at the 75th, 4.30 at the 50th and a 4.08 at the bottom 25th.


UVA also beats W&M wiht ACT scores, the 74th/50th/30th percentiles are 35/34/32 for UVA and for W&M the ACTSare 34/33/31

At the 75th percentile, SAT score/GPA is 1520/4.50 at W&M and 1510/4.52 at UVA. Virtually the same. The difference in the last couple of years has been at the lower half, with UVA higher. It used to be the opposite if you look at SCHEV historical data. When W&M had higher average SAT scores than UVA, I did not think UVA is in decline. I just think there are trends that play out over some period of time and then new trends emerge. W&M needs to get more applicants to better fill out the bottom half stats.

In USNEWS rankings, both UVA and W&M have been hurt by the inclusion of the social mobility metrics based on Pell Grant recipients. Both schools are relatively low in percentage of students receiving Pell Grants particularly compared to schools in other states like the UC universities. Outside of that, the big movers in USNWR in my recollection have been private universities (Chicago, Vanderbilt, Northeastern, etc.) They seem to have more levers to pull in rankings than public schools.

They are not virtually the same. UVA is higher in 8 categories than W&M. Also you conveniently didn't address the ACT issue. ACT scores get exponentially more difficult to get closer to the top of the pyramid. A 36 is achieved by only 3,655 - 4,4,044 (changes every year) of the 1.6M taking the test, or .313% of the students taking it. A 35 is only 11,983 students .925% of test applicants nationwide. The fact that the 75th percentile of enrolled student at UVA has a 35 or better is astounding. W&M can boast only a 34 taps into a different level below. Here's the chart


ACT Score # of Students Percentage of All Test Takers
36 4,055 0.313%
35 11,983 0.925%
34 15,875 1.226%
33 18,424 1.422%

Keep in mind that only about 20% of students at UVA submit the ACT (vs 50% for SAT) . So 25% of that number scoring 35 or higher (75th percentile) could be as few as 210 students (out of the 16,000 or so nationally) for Fall 2021 class.

2021 is light years ago in the college admissions wars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is an obvious answer.

Ranking drop from 32 -> 38.
Acceptance rate went from 33% to 42%, higher than large publics like UT Austin and UMD. While large publics like Berkeley are reaching single-digit acceptance rates, W&M's is increasing.

Student enrollment has increased.

Their law school has gone completely downhill.

W&M used to be more difficult to get into than UVA, due to a smaller number seats. It had higher SAT scores than UVA, the highest among publics comparable to Berkley. It was compared to the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth/Brown and SLACs like Swarthmore. It attracted out-of-staters and wealthy internationals that would never consider a large public for OOS tuition, but would consider W&M due to the size and feel.


They both have their advantages but the students enrolled at UVA higher Grades and test scores than W&M. I know many legacy families whose high stats kids didn’t get into UVA but got into W&M. A few transferred to UVA when they could.

Nowadays, UVA is far more tougher to get in, has far higher SAT scores and far great national and international reach.

Per most recent CDS:

UVA 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1330-1490
W&M 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1360-1520

both have average GPAs of 4.3.

Perhaps W&M’s higher acceptance rate is a function of some other factor other than the caliber of students they attract. Maybe since UVA and has more prominent sports and a better college town and is bigger it appeals to more kids who apply that are more borderline. W&M is bit more niche in that it a very small public, so more like a SLAC. Williamsburg is pretty sleepy too.

Maybe, just maybe, acceptance rate is not a good indication of how good a school is at any rate.

NNo they don't., the GPA of the actual class that enrolled at UVA last fall had a 4.52 at the 75th percentile, a 4.39 at the median and a 4.23 for the bottom 25th percentile. W&M's student profile runs lower: 4.50 at the 75th, 4.30 at the 50th and a 4.08 at the bottom 25th.


UVA also beats W&M wiht ACT scores, the 74th/50th/30th percentiles are 35/34/32 for UVA and for W&M the ACTSare 34/33/31

At the 75th percentile, SAT score/GPA is 1520/4.50 at W&M and 1510/4.52 at UVA. Virtually the same. The difference in the last couple of years has been at the lower half, with UVA higher. It used to be the opposite if you look at SCHEV historical data. When W&M had higher average SAT scores than UVA, I did not think UVA is in decline. I just think there are trends that play out over some period of time and then new trends emerge. W&M needs to get more applicants to better fill out the bottom half stats.

In USNEWS rankings, both UVA and W&M have been hurt by the inclusion of the social mobility metrics based on Pell Grant recipients. Both schools are relatively low in percentage of students receiving Pell Grants particularly compared to schools in other states like the UC universities. Outside of that, the big movers in USNWR in my recollection have been private universities (Chicago, Vanderbilt, Northeastern, etc.) They seem to have more levers to pull in rankings than public schools.

They are not virtually the same. UVA is higher in 8 categories than W&M. Also you conveniently didn't address the ACT issue. ACT scores get exponentially more difficult to get closer to the top of the pyramid. A 36 is achieved by only 3,655 - 4,4,044 (changes every year) of the 1.6M taking the test, or .313% of the students taking it. A 35 is only 11,983 students .925% of test applicants nationwide. The fact that the 75th percentile of enrolled student at UVA has a 35 or better is astounding. W&M can boast only a 34 taps into a different level below. Here's the chart


ACT Score # of Students Percentage of All Test Takers
36 4,055 0.313%
35 11,983 0.925%
34 15,875 1.226%
33 18,424 1.422%

Keep in mind that only about 20% of students at UVA submit the ACT (vs 50% for SAT) . So 25% of that number scoring 35 or higher (75th percentile) could be as few as 210 students (out of the 16,000 or so nationally) for Fall 2021 class.

+1. And that does not even factor in the kids who submitted both the SAT and the ACT. I don’t have a dog in this hunts and don’t really care which is better. I’d be thrilled if DC got into either. But for the PP dead set on proving UVA is far superior, I just don’t see it. At margins based on pure stats, maybe slightly. But W&M has its own advantages too.

[Anonymous]

Someone brought up peer reputation on USNews and I thought I would repost this.

4.9 Harvard MIT Stanford
4.8 Princeton Yale
4.7 Columbia JHU Berkeley
4.6 UChicago Penn Caltech Cornell
4.5 Duke Michigan
4.4 Northwestern Brown Dartmouth UCLA
4.3 Vanderbilt Carnegie Mellon UVA(!)
4.2 Wash U Emory Notre Dame Georgetown
4.1 Rice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone brought up peer reputation on USNews and I thought I would repost this.

4.9 Harvard MIT Stanford
4.8 Princeton Yale
4.7 Columbia JHU Berkeley
4.6 UChicago Penn Caltech Cornell
4.5 Duke Michigan
4.4 Northwestern Brown Dartmouth UCLA
4.3 Vanderbilt Carnegie Mellon UVA(!)
4.2 Wash U Emory Notre Dame Georgetown
4.1 Rice

Public schools get a bump, likely due to research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:W&M is an obvious answer.

Ranking drop from 32 -> 38.
Acceptance rate went from 33% to 42%, higher than large publics like UT Austin and UMD. While large publics like Berkeley are reaching single-digit acceptance rates, W&M's is increasing.

Student enrollment has increased.

Their law school has gone completely downhill.

W&M used to be more difficult to get into than UVA, due to a smaller number seats. It had higher SAT scores than UVA, the highest among publics comparable to Berkley. It was compared to the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth/Brown and SLACs like Swarthmore. It attracted out-of-staters and wealthy internationals that would never consider a large public for OOS tuition, but would consider W&M due to the size and feel.

Nevertheless, the gpa and test scores for students on campus now is higher for UVA than W&M

They both have their advantages but the students enrolled at UVA higher Grades and test scores than W&M. I know many legacy families whose high stats kids didn’t get into UVA but got into W&M. A few transferred to UVA when they could.

Nowadays, UVA is far more tougher to get in, has far higher SAT scores and far great national and international reach.

Per most recent CDS:

UVA 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1330-1490
W&M 25th/75th percentile SAT - 1360-1520

both have average GPAs of 4.3.

Perhaps W&M’s higher acceptance rate is a function of some other factor other than the caliber of students they attract. Maybe since UVA and has more prominent sports and a better college town and is bigger it appeals to more kids who apply that are more borderline. W&M is bit more niche in that it a very small public, so more like a SLAC. Williamsburg is pretty sleepy too.

Maybe, just maybe, acceptance rate is not a good indication of how good a school is at any rate.

NNo they don't., the GPA of the actual class that enrolled at UVA last fall had a 4.52 at the 75th percentile, a 4.39 at the median and a 4.23 for the bottom 25th percentile. W&M's student profile runs lower: 4.50 at the 75th, 4.30 at the 50th and a 4.08 at the bottom 25th.


UVA also beats W&M wiht ACT scores, the 74th/50th/30th percentiles are 35/34/32 for UVA and for W&M the ACTSare 34/33/31

At the 75th percentile, SAT score/GPA is 1520/4.50 at W&M and 1510/4.52 at UVA. Virtually the same. The difference in the last couple of years has been at the lower half, with UVA higher. It used to be the opposite if you look at SCHEV historical data. When W&M had higher average SAT scores than UVA, I did not think UVA is in decline. I just think there are trends that play out over some period of time and then new trends emerge. W&M needs to get more applicants to better fill out the bottom half stats.

In USNEWS rankings, both UVA and W&M have been hurt by the inclusion of the social mobility metrics based on Pell Grant recipients. Both schools are relatively low in percentage of students receiving Pell Grants particularly compared to schools in other states like the UC universities. Outside of that, the big movers in USNWR in my recollection have been private universities (Chicago, Vanderbilt, Northeastern, etc.) They seem to have more levers to pull in rankings than public schools.

They are not virtually the same. UVA is higher in 8 categories than W&M. Also you conveniently didn't address the ACT issue. ACT scores get exponentially more difficult to get closer to the top of the pyramid. A 36 is achieved by only 3,655 - 4,4,044 (changes every year) of the 1.6M taking the test, or .313% of the students taking it. A 35 is only 11,983 students .925% of test applicants nationwide. The fact that the 75th percentile of enrolled student at UVA has a 35 or better is astounding. W&M can boast only a 34 taps into a different level below. Here's the chart


ACT Score # of Students Percentage of All Test Takers
36 4,055 0.313%
35 11,983 0.925%
34 15,875 1.226%
33 18,424 1.422%

Keep in mind that only about 20% of students at UVA submit the ACT (vs 50% for SAT) . So 25% of that number scoring 35 or higher (75th percentile) could be as few as 210 students (out of the 16,000 or so nationally) for Fall 2021 class.

+1. And that does not even factor in the kids who submitted both the SAT and the ACT. I don’t have a dog in this hunts and don’t really care which is better. I’d be thrilled if DC got into either. But for the PP dead set on proving UVA is far superior, I just don’t see it. At margins based on pure stats, maybe slightly. But W&M has its own advantages too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard, Brown, Dartmouth, Berkeley and Cornell have gone down.

Columbia, Hopkins, U Chicago, Stanford, Rice, MIT, CalTech came up.

Oh, you! First by assuming "stature" is a thing that matters and can be put on a scale. Second by starting your list with "Harvard" which literally has been the generic term for the #1 college since it's inception in 1636.

You silly person! Just stop!

Brown, Dartmouth, Berkeley down. Cornell down too (just look at rankings)

UP: JHU, Stanford and Chicago

Strange.... Cornell has gone up in Forbes, WSJ and every global university ranking over the last 10 years.

But gets regularly trashed on DCUM which is all that matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone brought up peer reputation on USNews and I thought I would repost this.

4.9 Harvard MIT Stanford
4.8 Princeton Yale
4.7 Columbia JHU Berkeley
4.6 UChicago Penn Caltech Cornell
4.5 Duke Michigan
4.4 Northwestern Brown Dartmouth UCLA
4.3 Vanderbilt Carnegie Mellon UVA(!)
4.2 Wash U Emory Notre Dame Georgetown
4.1 Rice

Public schools get a bump, likely due to research.

The public schools on this list are routinely among the best in the country/world. The only reason they don't make the top USNWR lists is because the USNWR rating system that favors metrics for private schools.