Travel Soccer teams around NOVA let's discuss

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which is why small clubs not in NCSL that have built or are building good programs, want to get in. They don't want to lose players that they have been working with for years because they are not able to have access to better competition. Yes all parents have the option to make what ever choice they want and should decide what is best for their kids. Small clubs just want the opportunity to participate in the dance.

We were not talking about small clubs. I don't even know how they got into the conversation.

The discussion has been about a family that is not satisfied with the Travel in a CCL club. Jesus H Christ.

It has been recommended that they leave their CCL Club or team, and play for a team in a more suitable league for their travel.

If they are in a CCL club they likely have teams in NCSL or ODSL. You are combining different issues.

This is a passive reader...I'd like to say that you are the one stuck on telling people to choose a team that has a traveling schedule that best suits your family. You said it like 12 times. We get it. We understand. CCL is a regional league. NCSL is more local. You believe its all about egos. OK. We get it. You like to write that we are moving the goal posts. We get it. But some of us are interested in the dynamic between NCSL and ODSL and the pros and cons to a merger (however practical or impractical it is) and I'm enjoying everything on this thread the last few days other than your rants about moving goal posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which is why small clubs not in NCSL that have built or are building good programs, want to get in. They don't want to lose players that they have been working with for years because they are not able to have access to better competition. Yes all parents have the option to make what ever choice they want and should decide what is best for their kids. Small clubs just want the opportunity to participate in the dance.

We were not talking about small clubs. I don't even know how they got into the conversation.

The discussion has been about a family that is not satisfied with the Travel in a CCL club. Jesus H Christ.

It has been recommended that they leave their CCL Club or team, and play for a team in a more suitable league for their travel.

If they are in a CCL club they likely have teams in NCSL or ODSL. You are combining different issues.

This is a passive reader...I'd like to say that you are the one stuck on telling people to choose a team that has a traveling schedule that best suits your family. You said it like 12 times. We get it. We understand. CCL is a regional league. NCSL is more local. You believe its all about egos. OK. We get it. You like to write that we are moving the goal posts. We get it. But some of us are interested in the dynamic between NCSL and ODSL and the pros and cons to a merger (however practical or impractical it is) and I'm enjoying everything on this thread the last few days other than your rants about moving goal posts.

NO! Everybody talk about exactly the one aspect of this I want to talk about! Don't listen to anything else! And everyone should have exactly the same perspective I have!

Discussion is useless! Accept things the way they are! Challenge nothing!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Which is why small clubs not in NCSL that have built or are building good programs, want to get in. They don't want to lose players that they have been working with for years because they are not able to have access to better competition. Yes all parents have the option to make what ever choice they want and should decide what is best for their kids. Small clubs just want the opportunity to participate in the dance.

We were not talking about small clubs. I don't even know how they got into the conversation.

The discussion has been about a family that is not satisfied with the Travel in a CCL club. Jesus H Christ.

It has been recommended that they leave their CCL Club or team, and play for a team in a more suitable league for their travel.

If they are in a CCL club they likely have teams in NCSL or ODSL. You are combining different issues.

This is a passive reader...I'd like to say that you are the one stuck on telling people to choose a team that has a traveling schedule that best suits your family. You said it like 12 times. We get it. We understand. CCL is a regional league. NCSL is more local. You believe its all about egos. OK. We get it. You like to write that we are moving the goal posts. We get it. But some of us are interested in the dynamic between NCSL and ODSL and the pros and cons to a merger (however practical or impractical it is) and I'm enjoying everything on this thread the last few days other than your rants about moving goal posts.

No, I don't think you do get it because the merger has nothing to do with CCL.

[Anonymous]

I've been around club soccer for many years with multiple kids go through, and the only thing that the proliferation of leagues with ever changing names has done is fragment both the teams and the leagues. League play in all of the "competitive" leagues like CCL is a joke - half the games are competitive, the other half are blow outs. And the soccer powers that be keep piling on more and more leagues - EDP, VPL, DA, CCL, R1, ECNL - and that's all on top of existing NCSL, ODSL, and WAGS. It's crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been around club soccer for many years with multiple kids go through, and the only thing that the proliferation of leagues with ever changing names has done is fragment both the teams and the leagues. League play in all of the "competitive" leagues like CCL is a joke - half the games are competitive, the other half are blow outs. And the soccer powers that be keep piling on more and more leagues - EDP, VPL, DA, CCL, R1, ECNL - and that's all on top of existing NCSL, ODSL, and WAGS. It's crazy.

+1,000,000

I started playing in WAGs in the late 70s. I have two male siblings that were top in this area in the 80s with a father that coached travel, VA State team.

It's gotten so bad.

I was amazed now that I am here navigating this world with my own kids. Things certainly aren't better---just a lot more shit to sort through to find legitimate, good people/trainers.

They have capitalized on the yuppie population where $ isn't an option and they don't have enough knowledge/experience in the sport to realize they are being sold snake oil. If it's 'elite' or a coach has a certain license its got to be good, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:CCL does not relegate and really do not keep standings/post scores in the traditional sense, except that the top club overall is recognized, as is the top team in each age group. This is a positive for us (our DS is U12). At least in theory, coaches are not risking as much by playing kids in different and unfamiliar positions (or on their weak sides). Kids are more likely to take chances and be creative. This philosophy, IMHO, is better for developing kids since the emphasis is development and not as much winning. I cannot recall the scores of any of the games played last season, but I remember the great plays and the smart decisions and how DS's team played a whole game without a true goalie because the boys were that good at keeping possession and playing sound defense and through our competent back line.

There were even mid-level NCSL teams at tournaments that gave our DS's team a close game, but it was not because they were playing pretty and technically sound soccer -- it was because they were good athletes and were very adept at booting the ball down the (short) field and chasing it and knocking our kids over. The close score did not mean that the teams were relatively equivalent in where the kids were in their development and that this team would be just as good as an opponent as a more technically sound team in the CCL. Once the teams move to a bigger field at U13, the gaps in the training will be exposed even more.

There is more travel in the CCL, but this is travel soccer. We had a choice and were given all the facts and this was the informed decision that we made.

This has been our experience as well. Have been in CCL for 3 years now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been around club soccer for many years with multiple kids go through, and the only thing that the proliferation of leagues with ever changing names has done is fragment both the teams and the leagues. League play in all of the "competitive" leagues like CCL is a joke - half the games are competitive, the other half are blow outs. And the soccer powers that be keep piling on more and more leagues - EDP, VPL, DA, CCL, R1, ECNL - and that's all on top of existing NCSL, ODSL, and WAGS. It's crazy.

+1,000,000

I started playing in WAGs in the late 70s. I have two male siblings that were top in this area in the 80s with a father that coached travel, VA State team.

It's gotten so bad.

I was amazed now that I am here navigating this world with my own kids. Things certainly aren't better---just a lot more shit to sort through to find legitimate, good people/trainers.

They have capitalized on the yuppie population where $ isn't an option and they don't have enough knowledge/experience in the sport to realize they are being sold snake oil. If it's 'elite' or a coach has a certain license its got to be good, right?

The Yuppie reference is as out of date as the "good old days of WAGS" is. Here is the thing, there has been a lot of positive changes to the soccer landscape over the years but with that there have come some negative changes as well.

Pay to play and marketing and calling everything Elite is a problem. But soccer is no longer a fringe sport and all popular sports are going through similar changes. baseball, basketball, LAX volleyball etc..

But there is plenty of choice and there is a team for just about every level of player. I don't think parents of kids on the fifth team of their club is being sold any "snake oil". Perhaps the need for "travel" soccer to have teams that are that far down isn't necessary but who are we to tell kids and parents that they should just play rec and accept that.

But, when you were in WAGS, simply playing travel soccer was considered "elite" and now with the proliferation of leagues and clubs that field up to 6 teams we now view travel soccer as something that is merely something that you can simply buy like peanut butter.

Add to this the potential for a college scholarship and some parents can feel that travel sports is a path to college. A quick look at the books will immediately reveal that not only are the odds of a scholarship poor but the amount any quality travel program will cost would be better spent on tutors in support of a academic scholarship. But these people I believe are pretty rare. That doesn't make the clubs or leagues snake oil salesmen any more than buying a power ball ticket. But unlike a powerball ticket most kids will have a positive experience to look book on regardless of where they end up.

Turn the cynicism dial back a notch, put your own kids potential, personal finances, and family lifestyle into perspective and you will be fine and realize that we are likely to make it far more complicated than it really is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been around club soccer for many years with multiple kids go through, and the only thing that the proliferation of leagues with ever changing names has done is fragment both the teams and the leagues. League play in all of the "competitive" leagues like CCL is a joke - half the games are competitive, the other half are blow outs. And the soccer powers that be keep piling on more and more leagues - EDP, VPL, DA, CCL, R1, ECNL - and that's all on top of existing NCSL, ODSL, and WAGS. It's crazy.

How do leagues "fragment" teams?

[Anonymous]

What is deemed convenient is different for everyone. People bemoan the "day trip league games" but I'd rather do that on a weekend versus driving 20,30,40 minutes (one-way), 3 to 4 times during the work week in rush hour traffic for practices! For us, the club's practice location being within a few minutes drive is crucial and I know many parents who factor this in more so than the drive distance to weekend games. I can throw a stone and hit a practice field that happens to be a CCL club, so yeah, we do CCL ?

[Anonymous]

"How do leagues "fragment" teams?"

Clubs decide what teams they put in what leagues. Then based on prior records teams either move up or down within leagues. This is for leagues with promotion/relegation such as NCSL and ODSL. I'm pretty certain that CCL does not have this. A club that is CCL may have 2 there, 2 NCSL, and another 2 in ODSL. All depends on the clubs size and the team's playing ability. A smaller club not in CCL may do 2 NCSL 1 ODSLor various combinations. At the moment, I believe that NCSL does not allow a club to have more than 2 or 3 teams in their league.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"How do leagues "fragment" teams?"

Clubs decide what teams they put in what leagues. Then based on prior records teams either move up or down within leagues. This is for leagues with promotion/relegation such as NCSL and ODSL. I'm pretty certain that CCL does not have this. A club that is CCL may have 2 there, 2 NCSL, and another 2 in ODSL. All depends on the clubs size and the team's playing ability. A smaller club not in CCL may do 2 NCSL 1 ODSLor various combinations. At the moment, I believe that NCSL does not allow a club to have more than 2 or 3 teams in their league.

I still don't see how that fragments teams.

If the only league was NCSL then the teams would simply be put in different divisions. I guess I just don't understand what you actually mean by fragment then.

CCL or NPL allow player passes so that clubs can do academy style training, mostly beneficial at U12 and younger, so that kids all train together and in theory kids can be moved up or down based on player development needs. If by fragmentation, NCSL does not allow this type of movement and "teams" become the main focus then I can see that as causing fragmentation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"How do leagues "fragment" teams?"

Clubs decide what teams they put in what leagues. Then based on prior records teams either move up or down within leagues. This is for leagues with promotion/relegation such as NCSL and ODSL. I'm pretty certain that CCL does not have this. A club that is CCL may have 2 there, 2 NCSL, and another 2 in ODSL. All depends on the clubs size and the team's playing ability. A smaller club not in CCL may do 2 NCSL 1 ODSLor various combinations. At the moment, I believe that NCSL does not allow a club to have more than 2 or 3 teams in their league.

I still don't see how that fragments teams.

If the only league was NCSL then the teams would simply be put in different divisions. I guess I just don't understand what you actually mean by fragment then.

CCL or NPL allow player passes so that clubs can do academy style training, mostly beneficial at U12 and younger, so that kids all train together and in theory kids can be moved up or down based on player development needs. If by fragmentation, NCSL does not allow this type of movement and "teams" become the main focus then I can see that as causing fragmentation.

Incorrect. Kids can be moved up and down between NCSL teams in the same club.

I'd need to double-check on guesting between ODSL and NCSL. I know ODSL allows guests from rec league, which is terrific.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"How do leagues "fragment" teams?"

Clubs decide what teams they put in what leagues. Then based on prior records teams either move up or down within leagues. This is for leagues with promotion/relegation such as NCSL and ODSL. I'm pretty certain that CCL does not have this. A club that is CCL may have 2 there, 2 NCSL, and another 2 in ODSL. All depends on the clubs size and the team's playing ability. A smaller club not in CCL may do 2 NCSL 1 ODSLor various combinations. At the moment, I believe that NCSL does not allow a club to have more than 2 or 3 teams in their league.

I still don't see how that fragments teams.

If the only league was NCSL then the teams would simply be put in different divisions. I guess I just don't understand what you actually mean by fragment then.

CCL or NPL allow player passes so that clubs can do academy style training, mostly beneficial at U12 and younger, so that kids all train together and in theory kids can be moved up or down based on player development needs. If by fragmentation, NCSL does not allow this type of movement and "teams" become the main focus then I can see that as causing fragmentation.

Incorrect. Kids can be moved up and down between NCSL teams in the same club.

I'd need to double-check on guesting between ODSL and NCSL. I know ODSL allows guests from rec league, which is terrific.

If kids can moved around in NCSL that would explain the 2 team minimum for a club. But all of that is designed to allow academy style and does not lead to fragmentation.

But, to address a prior post about the negative affect of multiple leagues, without CCL, NPL and other Club based leagues coming onto the scene and bringing some different approaches NCSL would not have adopted a club based model that allowed for player movement within the club. The WAGS team centric model would still rule the land

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"How do leagues "fragment" teams?"

Clubs decide what teams they put in what leagues. Then based on prior records teams either move up or down within leagues. This is for leagues with promotion/relegation such as NCSL and ODSL. I'm pretty certain that CCL does not have this. A club that is CCL may have 2 there, 2 NCSL, and another 2 in ODSL. All depends on the clubs size and the team's playing ability. A smaller club not in CCL may do 2 NCSL 1 ODSLor various combinations. At the moment, I believe that NCSL does not allow a club to have more than 2 or 3 teams in their league.

I still don't see how that fragments teams.

If the only league was NCSL then the teams would simply be put in different divisions. I guess I just don't understand what you actually mean by fragment then.

CCL or NPL allow player passes so that clubs can do academy style training, mostly beneficial at U12 and younger, so that kids all train together and in theory kids can be moved up or down based on player development needs. If by fragmentation, NCSL does not allow this type of movement and "teams" become the main focus then I can see that as causing fragmentation.

Incorrect. Kids can be moved up and down between NCSL teams in the same club.

I'd need to double-check on guesting between ODSL and NCSL. I know ODSL allows guests from rec league, which is terrific.

If kids can moved around in NCSL that would explain the 2 team minimum for a club. But all of that is designed to allow academy style and does not lead to fragmentation.

But, to address a prior post about the negative affect of multiple leagues, without CCL, NPL and other Club based leagues coming onto the scene and bringing some different approaches NCSL would not have adopted a club based model that allowed for player movement within the club. The WAGS team centric model would still rule the land

Certainly some truth to that.

So now that NCSL has adopted some CCL/VPL practices, do we still need so many leagues?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"How do leagues "fragment" teams?"

Clubs decide what teams they put in what leagues. Then based on prior records teams either move up or down within leagues. This is for leagues with promotion/relegation such as NCSL and ODSL. I'm pretty certain that CCL does not have this. A club that is CCL may have 2 there, 2 NCSL, and another 2 in ODSL. All depends on the clubs size and the team's playing ability. A smaller club not in CCL may do 2 NCSL 1 ODSLor various combinations. At the moment, I believe that NCSL does not allow a club to have more than 2 or 3 teams in their league.

I still don't see how that fragments teams.

If the only league was NCSL then the teams would simply be put in different divisions. I guess I just don't understand what you actually mean by fragment then.

CCL or NPL allow player passes so that clubs can do academy style training, mostly beneficial at U12 and younger, so that kids all train together and in theory kids can be moved up or down based on player development needs. If by fragmentation, NCSL does not allow this type of movement and "teams" become the main focus then I can see that as causing fragmentation.

Incorrect. Kids can be moved up and down between NCSL teams in the same club.

I'd need to double-check on guesting between ODSL and NCSL. I know ODSL allows guests from rec league, which is terrific.

If kids can moved around in NCSL that would explain the 2 team minimum for a club. But all of that is designed to allow academy style and does not lead to fragmentation.

But, to address a prior post about the negative affect of multiple leagues, without CCL, NPL and other Club based leagues coming onto the scene and bringing some different approaches NCSL would not have adopted a club based model that allowed for player movement within the club. The WAGS team centric model would still rule the land

Certainly some truth to that.

So now that NCSL has adopted some CCL/VPL practices, do we still need so many leagues?

Nope, all you have to do is convince them to combine into one giant league. You do that and I vote you for president.