So over APS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just about done with people claiming they want more for their tax money. At most you pay $15k for your property taxes. Find a top public school for your multiple children on the portion of that given to APS. You get a pretty good value for your money actually.

Public institutions are not fee for service. That isn't the model of a government school. Some highly taxed people don't send their kids there. Some no-taxed people send many kids there. Taxes are levied to support a functional school system for the good of the public, not as a service for parents. I think people are questioning whether APS is delivering a good public school system. I am questioning that. When people claim I can't complain because of the amount of my property taxes, that makes me think they don't understand what a public good is. It also makes me wonder whether they're APS teachers or staff who think they're above reproach.

It also makes me wonder why there is such complacency. I tend to think that has something to do with the general psychological makeup of wealthy parents.

I used to be fine with APS because I thought that as long as my kids were having a good experience at school, I was happy with it, and I have a high HHI and lots of degrees so my kids will eventually wind up fine.

But then I heard what was going on in class and was soooo disappointed with the curriculum. I think the kids should have gone back to school earlier but that wasn’t even my main issue because it was a difficult call to make. But I felt like my kid just wasn’t learning anything from school. Math was okay because DS had a good math teacher but I just cannot stand the idea that my child is spending 7 hours in school learning stuff like captions, and then being expected to write a book (A LITERAL BOOK WITH CHAPTERS AND A TABLE OF CONTENTS AND EVERYTHING) when he had never learned to write a good paragraph. Plus there was no feedback on any of the writing he worked so hard on. I knew that they didn’t learn much science or social studies but I just found the hours and hours of reading and math instruction depressing.

Now I get that both things are true: my kid will do fine in life no matter what, and APS curriculum sucks and should be changed.

Why are you so convinced that your “kid will do fine in life no matter what ....”? I hear that a lot in Arlington. What is it? Delusional thinking? Privilege? Entitlement? The notion that a certain HHI guarantees one a place on top of the hierarchy in the future? All of those things strike me as out of step with equity.

The fact that the HHI and income level of parents is highly correlated with how well their children do in life is inequitable, of course, but it is reality. While causation hasn’t been established, there are hundreds of studies that demonstrate the correlation. Just google it.

And I don’t mean to say that my kid will do fine literally no matter what; of course if I abuse him or something he will not. But the particulars of his elementary education (homeschool, private school, public school—regardless of the curriculum), will not have a major impact on his long-term success.

Ooh. This will be interesting. Two bitter souls united in their disdain and criticism of their child’s teachers, the curriculum, and all of APS. However, one brings *parenting* into it. Her kid will be fine, because she’s rich and educated. Getting my popcorn…

Sorry to disappoint, but I have distain for neither APS nor my kids’ teachers. In fact I think their teachers have been amazing and have don’t a great job in spite of the lackluster curriculum APS uses. It is possible to say that kids should learn how to write a good topic sentence before they are asked to write a book without hating the teachers.

And again, I don’t really fault APS for how they handled the pandemic. I think that based on the information we had at the time, APS made reasonable choices.

But enjoy your popcorn.

Maybe I am a little sensitive, but it sounds like less of a curricular issue and maybe a bad choice on the part of the teacher. One bad choice. One of my kids had a not so great teacher last year, but I still think it was good for her, for other reasons. Like you, I didn’t complain. Also… two kids, one mediocre (not awful) teacher in the whole bit- not bad. She needed to work with him. It’s life. For the record, you are right about HHI and income level. Facts are facts.

AND- I would complain, of course, if something really merited it. But nothing yet. One bad assignment? Probably not

NP. I'm curious as to why that assignment was so bad. My children are in high school and I think the writing curriculum in APS is crap. So on the surface, writing a complete book sounds like an excellent assignment. To the parent complaining about it, you said your child hadn't learned to write a complete paragraph yet. Was that because none of the students had been taught how to write a paragraph yet - and perhaps they would learn as they worked through the book assignment? Or just that your child hadn't yet mastered writing a paragraph, or a paragraph to your standards and expectations? Did it occur to you that he would get lots of practice at writing paragraphs by writing a book? That writing lots of paragraphs and putting them together in the context of a larger assignment with different parts might be a way to make learning to write more interesting, to apply thinking and creativity and writing skills while further developing those skills? What did the teacher explain about the assignment when you brought your concerns to her?

Wow, there are a lot of questions there. I will just sum up a response by saying that at the beginning of the year they were harping on students to write sentences (in response to questions about a story they were reading and isolated nonfiction paragraphs) that were at least five words long. That’s it. That’s was the only expectation they had for writing. The very next writing assignment was a book.

(The focus of the assignment wasn’t really writing, it was text features. I am of the opinion that it is more important to have instruction on topic sentences than several days of learning what a caption is, but that’s neither here nor there.)

It was not just my kid’s class. This was the curriculum for the entire third grade in the school. And I have seen other APS parents complain of the same thing.

And this is just one example. During a parent teacher conference for my older child the teacher lamented that they didn’t have enough time to teach times tables so my kid, who hadn’t picked up on it as quickly as others, needed to practice it at home. They spent all the time at school learning how to do multiplication on the number line and with arrays etc.

Also as to your point about the wisdom of writing a book before writing a paragraph: I disagree that a kid can kind of just pick up the skill of writing a topic sentence as they go. I think they need specific instruction in that skill. And for my kid, the experience of writing a book before knowing how to write a paragraph was extremely frustrating, and he is no better and writing paragraphs after the assignment.

So yeah, it’s not the teacher, it’s the curriculum.

They prioritize multiplication concepts over fact fluency. Fact fluency is grunt work that IMO is better done at home.

Don't worry - 4th grade dives deep into paragraphs. The 3rd grade book was to understand the structure and features of a book. Different concepts.

I have issues with APS but not with this stuff...

This is what I’m talking about. There’s research, intention, and methodology behind this stuff, but many parents will pick it apart because they are educated (but in something else) and think they know better. They may be the best doctors, lawyers, whatever, but teachers were trained in education.

I'm a lawyer, and I freely admit that I don't know how to teach. But my child's teachers expect me to teach him. Teachers are the only "professionals" who want to have it both ways - they want to be treated as unique professionals, and yet they act like anyone can do their jobs. Which is it?

They are teaching him. I just think a lot of parents want school to be the way they remember it, and it’s changed- for the better, even if you don’t recognize it. You probably have to do a little more, too. Show me the private school that is doing it all for them, sans support at home. The schools never did it all for you.

Please please please show me how it has changed for the better. I would be very heartened if that’s the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just about done with people claiming they want more for their tax money. At most you pay $15k for your property taxes. Find a top public school for your multiple children on the portion of that given to APS. You get a pretty good value for your money actually.

Public institutions are not fee for service. That isn't the model of a government school. Some highly taxed people don't send their kids there. Some no-taxed people send many kids there. Taxes are levied to support a functional school system for the good of the public, not as a service for parents. I think people are questioning whether APS is delivering a good public school system. I am questioning that. When people claim I can't complain because of the amount of my property taxes, that makes me think they don't understand what a public good is. It also makes me wonder whether they're APS teachers or staff who think they're above reproach.

It also makes me wonder why there is such complacency. I tend to think that has something to do with the general psychological makeup of wealthy parents.

I used to be fine with APS because I thought that as long as my kids were having a good experience at school, I was happy with it, and I have a high HHI and lots of degrees so my kids will eventually wind up fine.

But then I heard what was going on in class and was soooo disappointed with the curriculum. I think the kids should have gone back to school earlier but that wasn’t even my main issue because it was a difficult call to make. But I felt like my kid just wasn’t learning anything from school. Math was okay because DS had a good math teacher but I just cannot stand the idea that my child is spending 7 hours in school learning stuff like captions, and then being expected to write a book (A LITERAL BOOK WITH CHAPTERS AND A TABLE OF CONTENTS AND EVERYTHING) when he had never learned to write a good paragraph. Plus there was no feedback on any of the writing he worked so hard on. I knew that they didn’t learn much science or social studies but I just found the hours and hours of reading and math instruction depressing.

Now I get that both things are true: my kid will do fine in life no matter what, and APS curriculum sucks and should be changed.

Why are you so convinced that your “kid will do fine in life no matter what ....”? I hear that a lot in Arlington. What is it? Delusional thinking? Privilege? Entitlement? The notion that a certain HHI guarantees one a place on top of the hierarchy in the future? All of those things strike me as out of step with equity.

The fact that the HHI and income level of parents is highly correlated with how well their children do in life is inequitable, of course, but it is reality. While causation hasn’t been established, there are hundreds of studies that demonstrate the correlation. Just google it.

And I don’t mean to say that my kid will do fine literally no matter what; of course if I abuse him or something he will not. But the particulars of his elementary education (homeschool, private school, public school—regardless of the curriculum), will not have a major impact on his long-term success.

Ooh. This will be interesting. Two bitter souls united in their disdain and criticism of their child’s teachers, the curriculum, and all of APS. However, one brings *parenting* into it. Her kid will be fine, because she’s rich and educated. Getting my popcorn…

Sorry to disappoint, but I have distain for neither APS nor my kids’ teachers. In fact I think their teachers have been amazing and have don’t a great job in spite of the lackluster curriculum APS uses. It is possible to say that kids should learn how to write a good topic sentence before they are asked to write a book without hating the teachers.

And again, I don’t really fault APS for how they handled the pandemic. I think that based on the information we had at the time, APS made reasonable choices.

But enjoy your popcorn.

Maybe I am a little sensitive, but it sounds like less of a curricular issue and maybe a bad choice on the part of the teacher. One bad choice. One of my kids had a not so great teacher last year, but I still think it was good for her, for other reasons. Like you, I didn’t complain. Also… two kids, one mediocre (not awful) teacher in the whole bit- not bad. She needed to work with him. It’s life. For the record, you are right about HHI and income level. Facts are facts.

AND- I would complain, of course, if something really merited it. But nothing yet. One bad assignment? Probably not

NP. I'm curious as to why that assignment was so bad. My children are in high school and I think the writing curriculum in APS is crap. So on the surface, writing a complete book sounds like an excellent assignment. To the parent complaining about it, you said your child hadn't learned to write a complete paragraph yet. Was that because none of the students had been taught how to write a paragraph yet - and perhaps they would learn as they worked through the book assignment? Or just that your child hadn't yet mastered writing a paragraph, or a paragraph to your standards and expectations? Did it occur to you that he would get lots of practice at writing paragraphs by writing a book? That writing lots of paragraphs and putting them together in the context of a larger assignment with different parts might be a way to make learning to write more interesting, to apply thinking and creativity and writing skills while further developing those skills? What did the teacher explain about the assignment when you brought your concerns to her?

Wow, there are a lot of questions there. I will just sum up a response by saying that at the beginning of the year they were harping on students to write sentences (in response to questions about a story they were reading and isolated nonfiction paragraphs) that were at least five words long. That’s it. That’s was the only expectation they had for writing. The very next writing assignment was a book.

(The focus of the assignment wasn’t really writing, it was text features. I am of the opinion that it is more important to have instruction on topic sentences than several days of learning what a caption is, but that’s neither here nor there.)

It was not just my kid’s class. This was the curriculum for the entire third grade in the school. And I have seen other APS parents complain of the same thing.

And this is just one example. During a parent teacher conference for my older child the teacher lamented that they didn’t have enough time to teach times tables so my kid, who hadn’t picked up on it as quickly as others, needed to practice it at home. They spent all the time at school learning how to do multiplication on the number line and with arrays etc.

Also as to your point about the wisdom of writing a book before writing a paragraph: I disagree that a kid can kind of just pick up the skill of writing a topic sentence as they go. I think they need specific instruction in that skill. And for my kid, the experience of writing a book before knowing how to write a paragraph was extremely frustrating, and he is no better and writing paragraphs after the assignment.

So yeah, it’s not the teacher, it’s the curriculum.

They prioritize multiplication concepts over fact fluency. Fact fluency is grunt work that IMO is better done at home.

Don't worry - 4th grade dives deep into paragraphs. The 3rd grade book was to understand the structure and features of a book. Different concepts.

I have issues with APS but not with this stuff...

This is what I’m talking about. There’s research, intention, and methodology behind this stuff, but many parents will pick it apart because they are educated (but in something else) and think they know better. They may be the best doctors, lawyers, whatever, but teachers were trained in education.

I'm a lawyer, and I freely admit that I don't know how to teach. But my child's teachers expect me to teach him. Teachers are the only "professionals" who want to have it both ways - they want to be treated as unique professionals, and yet they act like anyone can do their jobs. Which is it?

We want you to stay in your lane, AND support us in our work. Make sure your child reads and practices fast facts at home.

Just FYI it is waaaay easier to teach kids arrays and number lines than it is math facts. So it’s kinda crappy to offload that to parents, especially since the kids who need the most support probably don’t have parents who are going to times tables drills with their kids.

Also can we seriously never question the wisdom of what’s being taught and how it’s taught? I’m sure you recognize that there are bad teachers and it is possible to have an imperfect curriculum, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every critique of the curriculum (why by the way is the VA SOLs, APS doesn’t pull what to teach out of a hat. Please familiarize yourself with the state standards for each subject and grade level) by parents starts with “I am of the opinion...” “I think.....”. We know what you think. Education has evolved. We no longer only teach one way to do things. We want kids to understand what happens to the value of numbers when you multiply them not just follow the rote procedure you (and I) were taught 30 years ago. When you know better, you do better.

Okay how about “cognitive science says that learning rote math facts makes students more confident and better prepared for more advanced math?”

I am not at all opposed to my kids learning arrays or skip counting, but people seem to be under the impression that learning those things is more important than knowing off the top of your head that 7*7 = 49. Which is just wrong.

Uh...it *is* more important to understand the concept of multiplication than rote memorization.

No they are equally important. It doesn’t do much good to know that you can do 7*7 by drawing a number line when you are being asked to do 37*17 on a timed test.

I really don’t understand why people are so opposed to spending class time learning math facts?

Aren’t they doing reflex math? It’s research-based, and goes at each students pace. That’s better done asynchronously. Would be silly to do live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every critique of the curriculum (why by the way is the VA SOLs, APS doesn’t pull what to teach out of a hat. Please familiarize yourself with the state standards for each subject and grade level) by parents starts with “I am of the opinion...” “I think.....”. We know what you think. Education has evolved. We no longer only teach one way to do things. We want kids to understand what happens to the value of numbers when you multiply them not just follow the rote procedure you (and I) were taught 30 years ago. When you know better, you do better.

Okay how about “cognitive science says that learning rote math facts makes students more confident and better prepared for more advanced math?”

I am not at all opposed to my kids learning arrays or skip counting, but people seem to be under the impression that learning those things is more important than knowing off the top of your head that 7*7 = 49. Which is just wrong.

Uh...it *is* more important to understand the concept of multiplication than rote memorization.

No they are equally important. It doesn’t do much good to know that you can do 7*7 by drawing a number line when you are being asked to do 37*17 on a timed test.

I really don’t understand why people are so opposed to spending class time learning math facts?

Aren’t they doing reflex math? It’s research-based, and goes at each students pace. That’s better done asynchronously. Would be silly to do live.

Next year, the complaint will be that they used an iPad for 20 minutes to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just about done with people claiming they want more for their tax money. At most you pay $15k for your property taxes. Find a top public school for your multiple children on the portion of that given to APS. You get a pretty good value for your money actually.

Public institutions are not fee for service. That isn't the model of a government school. Some highly taxed people don't send their kids there. Some no-taxed people send many kids there. Taxes are levied to support a functional school system for the good of the public, not as a service for parents. I think people are questioning whether APS is delivering a good public school system. I am questioning that. When people claim I can't complain because of the amount of my property taxes, that makes me think they don't understand what a public good is. It also makes me wonder whether they're APS teachers or staff who think they're above reproach.

It also makes me wonder why there is such complacency. I tend to think that has something to do with the general psychological makeup of wealthy parents.

I used to be fine with APS because I thought that as long as my kids were having a good experience at school, I was happy with it, and I have a high HHI and lots of degrees so my kids will eventually wind up fine.

But then I heard what was going on in class and was soooo disappointed with the curriculum. I think the kids should have gone back to school earlier but that wasn’t even my main issue because it was a difficult call to make. But I felt like my kid just wasn’t learning anything from school. Math was okay because DS had a good math teacher but I just cannot stand the idea that my child is spending 7 hours in school learning stuff like captions, and then being expected to write a book (A LITERAL BOOK WITH CHAPTERS AND A TABLE OF CONTENTS AND EVERYTHING) when he had never learned to write a good paragraph. Plus there was no feedback on any of the writing he worked so hard on. I knew that they didn’t learn much science or social studies but I just found the hours and hours of reading and math instruction depressing.

Now I get that both things are true: my kid will do fine in life no matter what, and APS curriculum sucks and should be changed.

Why are you so convinced that your “kid will do fine in life no matter what ....”? I hear that a lot in Arlington. What is it? Delusional thinking? Privilege? Entitlement? The notion that a certain HHI guarantees one a place on top of the hierarchy in the future? All of those things strike me as out of step with equity.

The fact that the HHI and income level of parents is highly correlated with how well their children do in life is inequitable, of course, but it is reality. While causation hasn’t been established, there are hundreds of studies that demonstrate the correlation. Just google it.

And I don’t mean to say that my kid will do fine literally no matter what; of course if I abuse him or something he will not. But the particulars of his elementary education (homeschool, private school, public school—regardless of the curriculum), will not have a major impact on his long-term success.

Ooh. This will be interesting. Two bitter souls united in their disdain and criticism of their child’s teachers, the curriculum, and all of APS. However, one brings *parenting* into it. Her kid will be fine, because she’s rich and educated. Getting my popcorn…

Sorry to disappoint, but I have distain for neither APS nor my kids’ teachers. In fact I think their teachers have been amazing and have don’t a great job in spite of the lackluster curriculum APS uses. It is possible to say that kids should learn how to write a good topic sentence before they are asked to write a book without hating the teachers.

And again, I don’t really fault APS for how they handled the pandemic. I think that based on the information we had at the time, APS made reasonable choices.

But enjoy your popcorn.

Maybe I am a little sensitive, but it sounds like less of a curricular issue and maybe a bad choice on the part of the teacher. One bad choice. One of my kids had a not so great teacher last year, but I still think it was good for her, for other reasons. Like you, I didn’t complain. Also… two kids, one mediocre (not awful) teacher in the whole bit- not bad. She needed to work with him. It’s life. For the record, you are right about HHI and income level. Facts are facts.

AND- I would complain, of course, if something really merited it. But nothing yet. One bad assignment? Probably not

NP. I'm curious as to why that assignment was so bad. My children are in high school and I think the writing curriculum in APS is crap. So on the surface, writing a complete book sounds like an excellent assignment. To the parent complaining about it, you said your child hadn't learned to write a complete paragraph yet. Was that because none of the students had been taught how to write a paragraph yet - and perhaps they would learn as they worked through the book assignment? Or just that your child hadn't yet mastered writing a paragraph, or a paragraph to your standards and expectations? Did it occur to you that he would get lots of practice at writing paragraphs by writing a book? That writing lots of paragraphs and putting them together in the context of a larger assignment with different parts might be a way to make learning to write more interesting, to apply thinking and creativity and writing skills while further developing those skills? What did the teacher explain about the assignment when you brought your concerns to her?

Wow, there are a lot of questions there. I will just sum up a response by saying that at the beginning of the year they were harping on students to write sentences (in response to questions about a story they were reading and isolated nonfiction paragraphs) that were at least five words long. That’s it. That’s was the only expectation they had for writing. The very next writing assignment was a book.

(The focus of the assignment wasn’t really writing, it was text features. I am of the opinion that it is more important to have instruction on topic sentences than several days of learning what a caption is, but that’s neither here nor there.)

It was not just my kid’s class. This was the curriculum for the entire third grade in the school. And I have seen other APS parents complain of the same thing.

And this is just one example. During a parent teacher conference for my older child the teacher lamented that they didn’t have enough time to teach times tables so my kid, who hadn’t picked up on it as quickly as others, needed to practice it at home. They spent all the time at school learning how to do multiplication on the number line and with arrays etc.

Also as to your point about the wisdom of writing a book before writing a paragraph: I disagree that a kid can kind of just pick up the skill of writing a topic sentence as they go. I think they need specific instruction in that skill. And for my kid, the experience of writing a book before knowing how to write a paragraph was extremely frustrating, and he is no better and writing paragraphs after the assignment.

So yeah, it’s not the teacher, it’s the curriculum.

They prioritize multiplication concepts over fact fluency. Fact fluency is grunt work that IMO is better done at home.

Don't worry - 4th grade dives deep into paragraphs. The 3rd grade book was to understand the structure and features of a book. Different concepts.

I have issues with APS but not with this stuff...

This is what I’m talking about. There’s research, intention, and methodology behind this stuff, but many parents will pick it apart because they are educated (but in something else) and think they know better. They may be the best doctors, lawyers, whatever, but teachers were trained in education.

I'm a lawyer, and I freely admit that I don't know how to teach. But my child's teachers expect me to teach him. Teachers are the only "professionals" who want to have it both ways - they want to be treated as unique professionals, and yet they act like anyone can do their jobs. Which is it?

We want you to stay in your lane, AND support us in our work. Make sure your child reads and practices fast facts at home.

Just FYI it is waaaay easier to teach kids arrays and number lines than it is math facts. So it’s kinda crappy to offload that to parents, especially since the kids who need the most support probably don’t have parents who are going to times tables drills with their kids.

Also can we seriously never question the wisdom of what’s being taught and how it’s taught? I’m sure you recognize that there are bad teachers and it is possible to have an imperfect curriculum, right?

Huh? Math facts are rote memorization. They are NOT hard at all (esp if you understand concept), they just take practice.

Pre-covid, most kids practiced math facts via reflex math - a little in school but mostly at home as HOMEWORK.

[Anonymous]

You don't "teach" multiplication facts. You memorize it. It's rote memorization. Kids just need to practice, practice, practice until they have easy recall. That's not something that is worthwhile spending tons of class time because it's not a concept to learn. It's literally drill and kill. There's a value to it, for sure. But kid's ability to memorize math facts has a lot to do with their ability to memorize and retain information than the skill level of their teachers or the curriculum.

I'm an APS teacher in 4th grade and this year we saw that because of the COVID closure in spring 2020 many students were missing the practice with multiplication facts they would have gotten if they had been in school. And then for whatever reason they didn't do or keep up with reflex to build those so now in 4th when we were teaching mulit-digit multiplication and long division, both scenarios where knowing basic facts is very helpful, the students didn't have those facts which leads to errors and wrong answers. Please, if you do one thing over the summer 3rd and 4th grade parents, practice math facts. Reflex. Flash cards. Songs on youtube with math facts. Whatever. It helps!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just about done with people claiming they want more for their tax money. At most you pay $15k for your property taxes. Find a top public school for your multiple children on the portion of that given to APS. You get a pretty good value for your money actually.

Public institutions are not fee for service. That isn't the model of a government school. Some highly taxed people don't send their kids there. Some no-taxed people send many kids there. Taxes are levied to support a functional school system for the good of the public, not as a service for parents. I think people are questioning whether APS is delivering a good public school system. I am questioning that. When people claim I can't complain because of the amount of my property taxes, that makes me think they don't understand what a public good is. It also makes me wonder whether they're APS teachers or staff who think they're above reproach.

It also makes me wonder why there is such complacency. I tend to think that has something to do with the general psychological makeup of wealthy parents.

I used to be fine with APS because I thought that as long as my kids were having a good experience at school, I was happy with it, and I have a high HHI and lots of degrees so my kids will eventually wind up fine.

But then I heard what was going on in class and was soooo disappointed with the curriculum. I think the kids should have gone back to school earlier but that wasn’t even my main issue because it was a difficult call to make. But I felt like my kid just wasn’t learning anything from school. Math was okay because DS had a good math teacher but I just cannot stand the idea that my child is spending 7 hours in school learning stuff like captions, and then being expected to write a book (A LITERAL BOOK WITH CHAPTERS AND A TABLE OF CONTENTS AND EVERYTHING) when he had never learned to write a good paragraph. Plus there was no feedback on any of the writing he worked so hard on. I knew that they didn’t learn much science or social studies but I just found the hours and hours of reading and math instruction depressing.

Now I get that both things are true: my kid will do fine in life no matter what, and APS curriculum sucks and should be changed.

Why are you so convinced that your “kid will do fine in life no matter what ....”? I hear that a lot in Arlington. What is it? Delusional thinking? Privilege? Entitlement? The notion that a certain HHI guarantees one a place on top of the hierarchy in the future? All of those things strike me as out of step with equity.

The fact that the HHI and income level of parents is highly correlated with how well their children do in life is inequitable, of course, but it is reality. While causation hasn’t been established, there are hundreds of studies that demonstrate the correlation. Just google it.

And I don’t mean to say that my kid will do fine literally no matter what; of course if I abuse him or something he will not. But the particulars of his elementary education (homeschool, private school, public school—regardless of the curriculum), will not have a major impact on his long-term success.

Ooh. This will be interesting. Two bitter souls united in their disdain and criticism of their child’s teachers, the curriculum, and all of APS. However, one brings *parenting* into it. Her kid will be fine, because she’s rich and educated. Getting my popcorn…

Sorry to disappoint, but I have distain for neither APS nor my kids’ teachers. In fact I think their teachers have been amazing and have don’t a great job in spite of the lackluster curriculum APS uses. It is possible to say that kids should learn how to write a good topic sentence before they are asked to write a book without hating the teachers.

And again, I don’t really fault APS for how they handled the pandemic. I think that based on the information we had at the time, APS made reasonable choices.

But enjoy your popcorn.

Maybe I am a little sensitive, but it sounds like less of a curricular issue and maybe a bad choice on the part of the teacher. One bad choice. One of my kids had a not so great teacher last year, but I still think it was good for her, for other reasons. Like you, I didn’t complain. Also… two kids, one mediocre (not awful) teacher in the whole bit- not bad. She needed to work with him. It’s life. For the record, you are right about HHI and income level. Facts are facts.

AND- I would complain, of course, if something really merited it. But nothing yet. One bad assignment? Probably not

NP. I'm curious as to why that assignment was so bad. My children are in high school and I think the writing curriculum in APS is crap. So on the surface, writing a complete book sounds like an excellent assignment. To the parent complaining about it, you said your child hadn't learned to write a complete paragraph yet. Was that because none of the students had been taught how to write a paragraph yet - and perhaps they would learn as they worked through the book assignment? Or just that your child hadn't yet mastered writing a paragraph, or a paragraph to your standards and expectations? Did it occur to you that he would get lots of practice at writing paragraphs by writing a book? That writing lots of paragraphs and putting them together in the context of a larger assignment with different parts might be a way to make learning to write more interesting, to apply thinking and creativity and writing skills while further developing those skills? What did the teacher explain about the assignment when you brought your concerns to her?

Wow, there are a lot of questions there. I will just sum up a response by saying that at the beginning of the year they were harping on students to write sentences (in response to questions about a story they were reading and isolated nonfiction paragraphs) that were at least five words long. That’s it. That’s was the only expectation they had for writing. The very next writing assignment was a book.

(The focus of the assignment wasn’t really writing, it was text features. I am of the opinion that it is more important to have instruction on topic sentences than several days of learning what a caption is, but that’s neither here nor there.)

It was not just my kid’s class. This was the curriculum for the entire third grade in the school. And I have seen other APS parents complain of the same thing.

And this is just one example. During a parent teacher conference for my older child the teacher lamented that they didn’t have enough time to teach times tables so my kid, who hadn’t picked up on it as quickly as others, needed to practice it at home. They spent all the time at school learning how to do multiplication on the number line and with arrays etc.

Also as to your point about the wisdom of writing a book before writing a paragraph: I disagree that a kid can kind of just pick up the skill of writing a topic sentence as they go. I think they need specific instruction in that skill. And for my kid, the experience of writing a book before knowing how to write a paragraph was extremely frustrating, and he is no better and writing paragraphs after the assignment.

So yeah, it’s not the teacher, it’s the curriculum.

They prioritize multiplication concepts over fact fluency. Fact fluency is grunt work that IMO is better done at home.

Don't worry - 4th grade dives deep into paragraphs. The 3rd grade book was to understand the structure and features of a book. Different concepts.

I have issues with APS but not with this stuff...

This is what I’m talking about. There’s research, intention, and methodology behind this stuff, but many parents will pick it apart because they are educated (but in something else) and think they know better. They may be the best doctors, lawyers, whatever, but teachers were trained in education.

I'm a lawyer, and I freely admit that I don't know how to teach. But my child's teachers expect me to teach him. Teachers are the only "professionals" who want to have it both ways - they want to be treated as unique professionals, and yet they act like anyone can do their jobs. Which is it?

They are teaching him. I just think a lot of parents want school to be the way they remember it, and it’s changed- for the better, even if you don’t recognize it. You probably have to do a little more, too. Show me the private school that is doing it all for them, sans support at home. The schools never did it all for you.

Please please please show me how it has changed for the better. I would be very heartened if that’s the case.

DP. Today, kids learn math concepts in multiple ways. Each kid learns differently so it helps the concepts stick for more kids.

And they have tools, like reflex math to better target fact fluency. Reflex tracks which facts your kid has already mastered so it focuses time on other facts. And kids go at their own pace.

There are better manipulatives as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every critique of the curriculum (why by the way is the VA SOLs, APS doesn’t pull what to teach out of a hat. Please familiarize yourself with the state standards for each subject and grade level) by parents starts with “I am of the opinion...” “I think.....”. We know what you think. Education has evolved. We no longer only teach one way to do things. We want kids to understand what happens to the value of numbers when you multiply them not just follow the rote procedure you (and I) were taught 30 years ago. When you know better, you do better.

Okay how about “cognitive science says that learning rote math facts makes students more confident and better prepared for more advanced math?”

I am not at all opposed to my kids learning arrays or skip counting, but people seem to be under the impression that learning those things is more important than knowing off the top of your head that 7*7 = 49. Which is just wrong.

Uh...it *is* more important to understand the concept of multiplication than rote memorization.

No they are equally important. It doesn’t do much good to know that you can do 7*7 by drawing a number line when you are being asked to do 37*17 on a timed test.

I really don’t understand why people are so opposed to spending class time learning math facts?

Kids who understand arrays could crush 37*17.

Both are important. Understanding concepts is more important and is better use of class time in school. Math facts can happen as homework as it has for many years.

[Anonymous]

The problem with teaching things multiple ways is some kids need a lot of repetition to reach mastery. My kid didn't need to learn 6 ways to do long division. Kid needed to learn one way and practice practice practice. In our case, it never really stuck, despite trying at home, because kid came home exhausted from school without the ability to engage meaningfully and still struggles with basic math facts as an above average GPA HS student. I don't need to have a degree in education to tell you that approach did not work for my family. I have an advanced degree and I am skilled in critical thinking and observation. Teachers don't always see at home what parents see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem with teaching things multiple ways is some kids need a lot of repetition to reach mastery. My kid didn't need to learn 6 ways to do long division. Kid needed to learn one way and practice practice practice. In our case, it never really stuck, despite trying at home, because kid came home exhausted from school without the ability to engage meaningfully and still struggles with basic math facts as an above average GPA HS student. I don't need to have a degree in education to tell you that approach did not work for my family. I have an advanced degree and I am skilled in critical thinking and observation. Teachers don't always see at home what parents see.

Have him practice math facts this summer. It’s not too late.

Some kids just take longer than others.

[Anonymous]

Parents on here are something else. I think they never paid attention to their kids education til now. But now they are experts and they are outraged. Most of what you’re complaining about has been in place for 5 years or more. I see posts from a bunch of out of touch whiners. Got to private or move if you think it’s so awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents on here are something else. I think they never paid attention to their kids education til now. But now they are experts and they are outraged. Most of what you’re complaining about has been in place for 5 years or more. I see posts from a bunch of out of touch whiners. Got to private or move if you think it’s so awful.

They will always be unhappy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents on here are something else. I think they never paid attention to their kids education til now. But now they are experts and they are outraged. Most of what you’re complaining about has been in place for 5 years or more. I see posts from a bunch of out of touch whiners. Got to private or move if you think it’s so awful.

So you think APS could not be improved at all? Not even one bit? And that parents who want the system to do better are whiners?

Is this how you deal with other life problems? I find that sad, actually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem with teaching things multiple ways is some kids need a lot of repetition to reach mastery. My kid didn't need to learn 6 ways to do long division. Kid needed to learn one way and practice practice practice. In our case, it never really stuck, despite trying at home, because kid came home exhausted from school without the ability to engage meaningfully and still struggles with basic math facts as an above average GPA HS student. I don't need to have a degree in education to tell you that approach did not work for my family. I have an advanced degree and I am skilled in critical thinking and observation. Teachers don't always see at home what parents see.

How will your child find the method that works best for them if they aren’t taught them? Just because you only learned the traditional algorithm with no understanding of why it works doesn’t mean your child might not be more successful with partial quotient method. We teach a few different ways, and do lots of practice once kids have a method they prefer. But if a kid truly needs a lot of extra practice we can’t provide that extra in the time we have. That’s where you as a parent come in and work with your kid to practice and master. Teachers can’t be every thing to every student.
Additionally some children really have difficulty memorizing things. It doesn’t mean they aren’t intelligent or can’t be successful. It means that tasks requiring recall are going to be more of a challenge for them. Students all have strengths and weaknesses. There are many kids and adults who struggle with memorization. It’s not your teachers fault that your child has this weakness and if you recognize it then you can help your child learn some compensation strategies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents on here are something else. I think they never paid attention to their kids education til now. But now they are experts and they are outraged. Most of what you’re complaining about has been in place for 5 years or more. I see posts from a bunch of out of touch whiners. Got to private or move if you think it’s so awful.

So you think APS could not be improved at all? Not even one bit? And that parents who want the system to do better are whiners?

Is this how you deal with other life problems? I find that sad, actually.

Am I incorrect, or is this thread called “so over APS”? Is it constructive, you think?