immmigrant haters: do you really want to be like Japan?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

No. We need immigrants in services, agriculture, construction, etc. The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is because there is a demand for them that the legal immigration system does not meet. These people come here and work harder than anyone and contribute to our economy. The legal immigration system is not working.

You have yet to address the question that's been posed to you several times: you are advocating for a permanent, low-paid, unskilled underclass, correct? Yet you pay lip service to the concept that income disparity in the US has never been greater, and you feel that needs to change. So which is it?? Answer the question.

You seem to confuse "low skill" with "permanent underclass." But I am so thrilled that you are concerned about income inequality (are you a Bernie bro?) and class-based analysis. As I have stated and posted research to support multiple times, regularizing labor is the *best* way to start protecting low-skill workers. After that, there's a lot we can do for the whole class, like union rights and minumum wage. As for the low-skill immigrants themselves, the researcj shows the move to the US is the big leap in social mobility, then their kids continue the upward trajectory.

You've repeated these talking points of yours ad nauseum. The fact is, you ARE advocating for a permanent underclass. Low skill does indeed = underclass, no matter how much you argue to the contrary. Essentially, you're insisting we need to import *illegal* immigrants to do the unskilled work labor requires. So forgive me (and others) if we just think you're incredibly disingenuous.

so you think all the low-skilled work should just ... disappear?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sick- why do you conflate illegal and legal immigration. Please just stop.

No. You need to accept that your imputation of immorality to illegal immigrants is not the only possible position. And, please focus on the actual question in the post. Are you able to understand the situation Japan is in due to is immigration policies? Do you understand that people are here illegally because the US economy NEEDS them, and therefore our policies don't actually keep them out?

Again, if what you're saying is that we need to create routes of legal immigration to regularize our labor force - I totally agree. And, this is the Democratic party position.

We are not impugning immorality to illegal aliens. We are starting the obvious, which liberals continue to disregard - they are breaking our laws by coming here the way they do.

And they are not coming here because the U.S. economy needs them. They are a net drain to Americans. They are coming here for the benefits of U.S. residency, which does not justify their flouting the immigration law.

I just wish liberals had the same concern and sympathy for Americans who are struggling than for foreigners who are scofflaws.

I've posted a kagillion articles rebutting this, from all over the political spectrum.

DP

And you can post all the BS articles you want. The data means nothing because it can be manipulated to support either side.

But for those of us who live in communities with high numbers of illegal immigrants, we see exactly what kind of a toll it takes on the neighborhood. Financially and otherwise.

I’m sorry you are still stuck in this situation. Can you move? Or would you lose a lot of money on your house?

PP here

Spouse and I are currently having this very discussion. We are lucky in that we've paid off a good chunk of our mortgage, and can leave. Two of our neighbors have already left, and one family skips MCPS for private school. However, we're not sure where to go! MoCo has had illegal immigration affect the entire county. From what I understand, Fairfax County faces similar challenges.

We'll see. We're not the only ones in our Middle Class suburb wrestling with this issue, however. And, we're not White, FWIW. We've lived in a very diverse, solidly middle class area on MoCo for over 15 years, but recent years have led to a complete lack on housing code enforcement, etc, which has led to declines in our neighborhood. It's been a bummer to watch.

DP. My parents' neighborhood has really gone downhill too as a result of the influx of non-English speaking immgrants, a percentage of which are illegal. (The school rating is a 3, and the worst in MoCo.) The majority of students are on free lunches and a very high percentage are ESOL. There are five and six cars in front of many houses, with multiple families squeezed into SFHs. It's sad. It used to be an upper-middle class neighborhood when I lived there.

Anyone who claims that an influx of uneducated, unskilled, non-English speaking families does not bring down a neighborhood doesn't live in one.

This, exactly. OP, we're looking at you.

Op here. One of the favorite places I lived was a 95% dominican neighborhood in NYC. I am not scared of Spanish, I guess?

That's nice. Why did you leave? Do you plan to go back and raise your kids there so that they can attend school in that neighborhood? Be honest, please.

I'm not scared of Spanish either. What does that even mean? I speak Spanish, lived in Spain for a few months, and have traveled around Central South America.

Why would you even mention being 'scared of Spanish'. Do you think that the only uneducated, unskilled, non-English speaking families in my MoCo neighborhood are Spanish speakers? Not even close. Maybe your racist tendencies are showing.

The people who are here illegally are from all over the world. We have Asians, Muslims, Jews, everyone. Illegal immigration is not limited to one language.

sorry - I guess it's just that you're scared of non-white people. my bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Op here. One of the favorite places I lived was a 95% dominican neighborhood in NYC. I am not scared of Spanish, I guess?

Way to go to belittle the experience the poster reports. If only he were more enlightened! If only he wasn't scared of Spanish! Then his property values wouldn't tank and his kids' school wouldn't have gone to shits. It's all about fear you see. Not the trash, not the dilapidation, not the overwhelmed schools, not the wave of poor uneducated folks in his neighborhood. It's all about fear of Spanish.

THIS. Thank you, PP. OP is a moron and I think I'll just stop responding to OP's posts. Maybe this asinine thread will die a well-deserved death.

It's dying because you have proven, definitively, that Trump supporter's anti-immigrant stance is based on ignorance, gullibility, and racism. You ignore research from across the political spectrum (Brookings, Cato, WSJ, and more) and have nothing to fall back on but slogans and incorrect conventional wisdom. I think you literally can't understand that other people don't viscerally hate "illegals" as much as you. I've given you an honest chance at coming up with well-supported arguments -- ya got nothing.

I'm not dumb enough to think that elections are won on good policies and facts, and I have no doubt that Bannon & Miller have done a great job turning this into an issue to solify their white base.

But, I have satisfied myself that the DCUM Trumpers have no substance or capability.

I think you *literally* can't understand that people have experiences other than you, and make positions based on these experiences. Why would anyone care what the *research* says when their property values and schools are in tatters?

No one *hates* illegals, I mean I was sort of illegal once. But I never kidded myself that my presence or employment was good for the country. It was mainly just good for me. I didn't care what it did to the people who were here already.

I don't vote. But I delight at people like you who prefer to call their opponents names rather than accept that people's experiences are qualitatively different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
so you think all the low-skilled work should just ... disappear?

It should pay a living wage and attract Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

sorry - I guess it's just that you're scared of non-white people. my bad.

You're saying he should pretend his kids' schools are just fine to get street cred with you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

No. We need immigrants in services, agriculture, construction, etc. The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is because there is a demand for them that the legal immigration system does not meet. These people come here and work harder than anyone and contribute to our economy. The legal immigration system is not working.

Is it your contention that there are physically no able-bodied Americans capable of working in services, construction or agriculture? No? Could it be that the demand for them is cut from the same cloth as the demand for Bangladeshi construction workers in Dubai?

DP but I would like to see some numbers on this. What is the number of unemployed Americans look like compared to the # jobs filled by illegals or those on visas?

Lots of research on that showing no negative impact:

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=23550
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/what-are-the-jobs-that-immigrants-do/
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2017/9/cato-journal-v37n3-3.pdf
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-immigration-actually-helps-native-born-us-workers-2017-11-04
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-immigration-economy-development/think-immigrants-steal-jobs-think-again-analysts-idUSKBN1FD2CR (global perspective)
https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/immigrant-and-native-workers-compete-different-low-skilled-jobs
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/in-america-immigrants-really-do-get-the-job-done (focus on highly-skilled)
https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/el2010-26.pdf

Too many links. The point is, could those jobs we supposedly so desperately need illegal immigrants for be filled by unemployed Americans if the incentives were right? What’s the number of unemployed Americans compared with illegals?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The arguments over this crack me up. Very few politicians REALLY want to stop illegal immigration. Because if it truly was stopped, prices/wages would have to increase and there would be labor shortages in certain sectors. Business owners (many of whom are republican donors) would be pissed. At least the current crop of Dems are honest about it. Trump’s own businesses have employed undocumented workers. Come on guys, you’re smarter than this.

I agree we need to demand more. But fixing the border will help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sick- why do you conflate illegal and legal immigration. Please just stop.

No. You need to accept that your imputation of immorality to illegal immigrants is not the only possible position. And, please focus on the actual question in the post. Are you able to understand the situation Japan is in due to is immigration policies? Do you understand that people are here illegally because the US economy NEEDS them, and therefore our policies don't actually keep them out?

Again, if what you're saying is that we need to create routes of legal immigration to regularize our labor force - I totally agree. And, this is the Democratic party position.

We are not impugning immorality to illegal aliens. We are starting the obvious, which liberals continue to disregard - they are breaking our laws by coming here the way they do.

And they are not coming here because the U.S. economy needs them. They are a net drain to Americans. They are coming here for the benefits of U.S. residency, which does not justify their flouting the immigration law.

I just wish liberals had the same concern and sympathy for Americans who are struggling than for foreigners who are scofflaws.

I've posted a kagillion articles rebutting this, from all over the political spectrum.

DP

And you can post all the BS articles you want. The data means nothing because it can be manipulated to support either side.

But for those of us who live in communities with high numbers of illegal immigrants, we see exactly what kind of a toll it takes on the neighborhood. Financially and otherwise.

I’m sorry you are still stuck in this situation. Can you move? Or would you lose a lot of money on your house?

PP here

Spouse and I are currently having this very discussion. We are lucky in that we've paid off a good chunk of our mortgage, and can leave. Two of our neighbors have already left, and one family skips MCPS for private school. However, we're not sure where to go! MoCo has had illegal immigration affect the entire county. From what I understand, Fairfax County faces similar challenges.

We'll see. We're not the only ones in our Middle Class suburb wrestling with this issue, however. And, we're not White, FWIW. We've lived in a very diverse, solidly middle class area on MoCo for over 15 years, but recent years have led to a complete lack on housing code enforcement, etc, which has led to declines in our neighborhood. It's been a bummer to watch.

DP. My parents' neighborhood has really gone downhill too as a result of the influx of non-English speaking immgrants, a percentage of which are illegal. (The school rating is a 3, and the worst in MoCo.) The majority of students are on free lunches and a very high percentage are ESOL. There are five and six cars in front of many houses, with multiple families squeezed into SFHs. It's sad. It used to be an upper-middle class neighborhood when I lived there.

Anyone who claims that an influx of uneducated, unskilled, non-English speaking families does not bring down a neighborhood doesn't live in one.

This, exactly. OP, we're looking at you.

Op here. One of the favorite places I lived was a 95% dominican neighborhood in NYC. I am not scared of Spanish, I guess?

That's nice. Why did you leave? Do you plan to go back and raise your kids there so that they can attend school in that neighborhood? Be honest, please.

I'm not scared of Spanish either. What does that even mean? I speak Spanish, lived in Spain for a few months, and have traveled around Central South America.

Why would you even mention being 'scared of Spanish'. Do you think that the only uneducated, unskilled, non-English speaking families in my MoCo neighborhood are Spanish speakers? Not even close. Maybe your racist tendencies are showing.

The people who are here illegally are from all over the world. We have Asians, Muslims, Jews, everyone. Illegal immigration is not limited to one language.

sorry - I guess it's just that you're scared of non-white people. my bad.

Okay? I’m that PP and I’m not white. I’m scared of myself? Nope. But I do dislike the overcrowding in my neighborhood. I dislike that my kids’ schools have to spend SO much money on ESOL, at the expense of other programs, like Art and Music. I dislike that our once family-friendly park gets overrun by people drinking later at night (yes, we neighbors have called the Park Police and filed complaints, but the MoCO is not very responsive). I dislike that we’ve had more hit and runs where people run into your car and just leave because they are driving illegally and/or don’t have car insurance.

Look, we live in an area in MoCO that was a nice, family-friendly place to live and raise kids. In the last 12 years, we have had a HUGE influx of illegal immigrants from all over the world. And it has led to a decline in my own standard of living, in my own neighborhood. That makes me sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Okay? I’m that PP and I’m not white. I’m scared of myself? Nope. But I do dislike the overcrowding in my neighborhood. I dislike that my kids’ schools have to spend SO much money on ESOL, at the expense of other programs, like Art and Music. I dislike that our once family-friendly park gets overrun by people drinking later at night (yes, we neighbors have called the Park Police and filed complaints, but the MoCO is not very responsive). I dislike that we’ve had more hit and runs where people run into your car and just leave because they are driving illegally and/or don’t have car insurance.

Look, we live in an area in MoCO that was a nice, family-friendly place to live and raise kids. In the last 12 years, we have had a HUGE influx of illegal immigrants from all over the world. And it has led to a decline in my own standard of living, in my own neighborhood. That makes me sad.

I'm sure the OP will call you names and demand research before she acknowledges that you have a point.

[Anonymous]

There are reasonabke win win guest worker programs all over the world. All level of professionals from nannies to dentists come from places like Sri Lanka and the Philippines. THey leave their families at home. "GUEST" worker. If they meet and marry an American, great. Otherwise, their long term life is back home, where the economy is being bolstered by what they remit. I'm sure if Japan hasnt turned to this they will soon. Our Congress can easily legislate more guest worker and seasonal visas for high need areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

No. We need immigrants in services, agriculture, construction, etc. The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is because there is a demand for them that the legal immigration system does not meet. These people come here and work harder than anyone and contribute to our economy. The legal immigration system is not working.

Is it your contention that there are physically no able-bodied Americans capable of working in services, construction or agriculture? No? Could it be that the demand for them is cut from the same cloth as the demand for Bangladeshi construction workers in Dubai?

DP but I would like to see some numbers on this. What is the number of unemployed Americans look like compared to the # jobs filled by illegals or those on visas?

Lots of research on that showing no negative impact:

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=23550
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/what-are-the-jobs-that-immigrants-do/
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2017/9/cato-journal-v37n3-3.pdf
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-immigration-actually-helps-native-born-us-workers-2017-11-04
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-immigration-economy-development/think-immigrants-steal-jobs-think-again-analysts-idUSKBN1FD2CR (global perspective)
https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/immigrant-and-native-workers-compete-different-low-skilled-jobs
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/in-america-immigrants-really-do-get-the-job-done (focus on highly-skilled)
https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/el2010-26.pdf

Too many links. The point is, could those jobs we supposedly so desperately need illegal immigrants for be filled by unemployed Americans if the incentives were right? What’s the number of unemployed Americans compared with illegals?

"too many links." you're truly pitiful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Okay? I’m that PP and I’m not white. I’m scared of myself? Nope. But I do dislike the overcrowding in my neighborhood. I dislike that my kids’ schools have to spend SO much money on ESOL, at the expense of other programs, like Art and Music. I dislike that our once family-friendly park gets overrun by people drinking later at night (yes, we neighbors have called the Park Police and filed complaints, but the MoCO is not very responsive). I dislike that we’ve had more hit and runs where people run into your car and just leave because they are driving illegally and/or don’t have car insurance.

Look, we live in an area in MoCO that was a nice, family-friendly place to live and raise kids. In the last 12 years, we have had a HUGE influx of illegal immigrants from all over the world. And it has led to a decline in my own standard of living, in my own neighborhood. That makes me sad.

I'm sure the OP will call you names and demand research before she acknowledges that you have a point.

In fact, yes, I will. That's what this thread is about, and I'm sorry it pisses people off so much to have to actually show that their opinions are grounded in fact.

Yes, neighborhoods change socioeconomically - that's neither here nor there. I'm sure a lot of people who love to buy giant houses in SE DC but can't because of "those" people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are reasonabke win win guest worker programs all over the world. All level of professionals from nannies to dentists come from places like Sri Lanka and the Philippines. THey leave their families at home. "GUEST" worker. If they meet and marry an American, great. Otherwise, their long term life is back home, where the economy is being bolstered by what they remit. I'm sure if Japan hasnt turned to this they will soon. Our Congress can easily legislate more guest worker and seasonal visas for high need areas.

Sure, guest worker programs are something to consider (and what Japan is doing, in fact). But I'm not sure that guest worker programs really help with some of the other objections about immigrants not assimilating and being disruptive to communities. The experience of European countries with Guest Worker programs after WWII would be worth studying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter

We also had the Bracero program in the U.S., which also was not really considered a success:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are reasonabke win win guest worker programs all over the world. All level of professionals from nannies to dentists come from places like Sri Lanka and the Philippines. THey leave their families at home. "GUEST" worker. If they meet and marry an American, great. Otherwise, their long term life is back home, where the economy is being bolstered by what they remit. I'm sure if Japan hasnt turned to this they will soon. Our Congress can easily legislate more guest worker and seasonal visas for high need areas.

Sure, guest worker programs are something to consider (and what Japan is doing, in fact). But I'm not sure that guest worker programs really help with some of the other objections about immigrants not assimilating and being disruptive to communities. The experience of European countries with Guest Worker programs after WWII would be worth studying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter

We also had the Bracero program in the U.S., which also was not really considered a success:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_program

Also ... when studying the guest worker program, we'd also have to look to see whether the guest workers, as opposed to permanent immigration, has a different impact on the native-born population and the economy. A lot of people here have claimed (against the evidence) that immigrants "steal" american jobs, drain the economy, and consume more in benefits than they contribute. As ALL my research links have shown - this is not true. Immigrants contribute to the economy by consuming goods, creating jobs as entrepeneurs, and their native-born children contribute at a higher level. This all has a positive synergistic effect on the economy, rather than reducing native-born wages. If they are guest workers confined to a single job and short time period, a lot of this positive integration into the economy couldn't really happen, and they would effectively be an "underclass" specifically for the labor use of the industry/employers that hire them. Maybe this is effectively what's happening now anyway with illegal immigrants working in isolated professions (mainly ag) but that would merit examination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Okay? I’m that PP and I’m not white. I’m scared of myself? Nope. But I do dislike the overcrowding in my neighborhood. I dislike that my kids’ schools have to spend SO much money on ESOL, at the expense of other programs, like Art and Music. I dislike that our once family-friendly park gets overrun by people drinking later at night (yes, we neighbors have called the Park Police and filed complaints, but the MoCO is not very responsive). I dislike that we’ve had more hit and runs where people run into your car and just leave because they are driving illegally and/or don’t have car insurance.

Look, we live in an area in MoCO that was a nice, family-friendly place to live and raise kids. In the last 12 years, we have had a HUGE influx of illegal immigrants from all over the world. And it has led to a decline in my own standard of living, in my own neighborhood. That makes me sad.

I'm sure the OP will call you names and demand research before she acknowledges that you have a point.

In fact, yes, I will. That's what this thread is about, and I'm sorry it pisses people off so much to have to actually show that their opinions are grounded in fact.

Yes, neighborhoods change socioeconomically - that's neither here nor there. I'm sure a lot of people who love to buy giant houses in SE DC but can't because of "those" people.

What? No one has to show you a damn thing. Remember, you are the one who opened this thread. You are the one making arguments and asking for understanding. You are the one throwing tantrums like a little baby demanding people agree with you. And now you're stomping your little feet because it didn't go the way you wanted.

And now let's translate your second paragraph into straight English. "I don't care about your property values, your children's schooling, your quality of life. I have research! and research is more important than you. Go away with your stupid experiences and life stories. So what that "those" people affected your life, you aren't really all that important."