Shooting in Munich

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The elephant in the room is that many mainstream moderate Moslems are sympathetic to, or at least tolerant of extremism.

On a trip to a moderate Islamic country (Jordan) in 2004, a cab driver told me they all the folks in the villages, in the countryside, only got their news from Al Jazeera and no place else; these people (according to the cabbie) saw Osama Bin Laden as a folk hero- as a sort of Muslim "Robin Hood" who had justifiably struck a blow against the evil infidel crusading America.

And this was the view in a moderate country; imagine what it must be like in Syria and the gulf states?

The villages of Jordan are hotbeds of radical Islam. Jordan is considered "moderate" due to it's king being a pawn of the West. Many of its residents are Westernized, but they tend to live in cities rather than villages. The founders of what eventually became ISIS -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- was Jordanian. These villagers are no more representative of mainstream moderate Muslims then Appalachian snake charmers are of mainstream Christians.

Ok... I'm ignorant. Where DOES moderate Islam exist? The polls of those who support jihad are so high, the wahaabi schools so widespread, the ibtolerance for feminist (sirsan Ali) or provocative (Salman Rushdie, Hedbo) almost 100 person blanket uniform. Where is moderate Islam that these kids are deviating from? There seem be tons of people of Muslim background who are functionally secular (smoke, drink.etc)... Where do we find the moderate practitioners?

Many of these people you deem functionally secular ARE moderate. Why is it so acceptable that people are cafeteria Catholics but so unbelievable that moderates are cafeteria Muslims. Moderate Muslims practice to some extent without doing EVERY SINGLE requirement of the faith -- maybe they pray once a day or once a month but not 5 times a day; maybe they don't do formal prayers at all but ask God to grant them their hopes and health etc. just like Christians do; maybe they go to mosque once every few months rather than every Friday or maybe just on holidays; maybe they've decided it's ok to have a drink or smoke once in a while but still decide against pork or premarital sex; or maybe they have premarital sex but only once they're in a committed relationship. What is it so hard to believe that they pick and choose just like Christians do?

I am one of these people. We do exist. And as much as people here love to say, well Muslims are at fault bc they need to be on a warpath against ISIS, well what exactly do you want me to do? I hate ISIS and will tell you that in conversation but like so many on here -- I am trying to pay down my law school debt, bill a million hours at work, and trying to pay my bills. What exactly am I supposed to do to stand up? And for all the people here who say -- oh Muslims look the other way even when they know someone is plotting -- that just isn't true. An attack happens and the cable news cycle focuses on it for 24-48 hrs and Trump says incendiary things about Muslims, people believe him, and then TV and life moves on. And THEN it comes out (as it did in Orlando) -- oh this guy was pretty shady and he was heard chatting at a mosque about how he idolizes some suicide bomber and some of the 50-60 yr olds who are regular mosque goers were hearing this and were NOT liking it and they DID call the authorities. Now if the FBI chose not to pursue it or dropped the ball or whatever, how was that their fault? How can it be said that NO Muslim reported him? What were they supposed to do -- go all George Zimmerman on him so they could spend their own lives in jail? And yet by the time all this comes out in an investigation, CNN has moved on and Trump makes no effort to correct himself and say -- oh Muslims did report this guy -- bc 2 wks have passed and we're onto a new issue.

It's totally acceptable. Except huge portions of the Muslim world are not in any way secular or 'easter/christmas' Muslims (using the Christian analogy). Where are the large groups of fully practicing moderate Muslims was my question?

I'm the PP you're quoting. I don't get what your question is -- where are the large groups of moderates geographically? Well I'm here in DC; lots of my family is in NYC doing the investment banking grind; others are in Pa. in fledgling small towns; other family members are in ATL and Dallas.

What I think you REALLY mean is why aren't the moderates putting a stop to this? Right? Well as I asked in my first post -- please tell us what to do? If you say we aren't reporting stuff -- you're wrong -- see the Orlando example above. But as you may realize there are a lot of us -- it's not like there's 100 Muslims total and everyone knows everyone; we all have independent lives that we need to live and bills to be paid, so it isn't possible to be everywhere at once to be our brothers' keepers. No member of my family has any intention or interest in becoming a George Zimmerman vigilante and no one even owns weaponry. So please -- tell us what you want us to do?

I don't understand why supposedly such highly educated "open minded" people on DCUM can't accept that the regular (non ISIS) Muslims are just regular people like you; it's not like we have some special powers to fight crime that white people don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: It's totally acceptable. Except huge portions of the Muslim world are not in any way secular or 'easter/christmas' Muslims (using the Christian analogy). Where are the large groups of fully practicing moderate Muslims was my question?

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. They're everywhere, but it seems like you prefer to believe they are not.

+1. How do you KNOW there aren't other places with secular or easter/Christmas Muslims? Are you some sort of authority on religious practices? Or do you think the entire middle east is Saudi -- which I as a Muslim consider batshit. If you need actual countries/cities -- HUGE group of non practicing/secular/cafeteria Muslims in Egypt; Dubai; Jordan. Of course you won't believe me bc in your mind, no way can a Middle Eastern Muslim be non practicing. Also I think you're overlooking the U.S. also.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: It's totally acceptable. Except huge portions of the Muslim world are not in any way secular or 'easter/christmas' Muslims (using the Christian analogy). Where are the large groups of fully practicing moderate Muslims was my question?

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. They're everywhere, but it seems like you prefer to believe they are not.

+1. How do you KNOW there aren't other places with secular or easter/Christmas Muslims? Are you some sort of authority on religious practices? Or do you think the entire middle east is Saudi -- which I as a Muslim consider batshit. If you need actual countries/cities -- HUGE group of non practicing/secular/cafeteria Muslims in Egypt; Dubai; Jordan. Of course you won't believe me bc in your mind, no way can a Middle Eastern Muslim be non practicing. Also I think you're overlooking the U.S. also.

Again, where are the moderate practicing Muslims and who is their spokesperson/authority?

Basically, you are telling me to be moderate you have to be a non practicing Muslim. Thats startling.

[Anonymous]

Are you an authority on religions to actually make the statement "easter/Christmas Muslims." That is a Christian concept and obviously doesn't apply to secular Muslims. There are plenty of those, particularly Iranians, but you might want to re-consider how you describe them.

[Anonymous]

I am still wondering where and how he got the gun. Germany has very strict gun control laws. All I have heard is that the weapon was not registered to him. He also had 300 rounds of ammo in his backpack when he shot himself.

The German authorities have said there is no evidence of him being radicalized. They are attributing the attack to mental illness.

I am not a big conspiracy theorist, but I also know that the German authorities have every reason to downplay this as an act of radical Islamic terrorism. The German people have not been happy with Merkel’s willingness to take in so many refugees, apparently with little or no vetting.

I would like to know more about how he obtained this weapon.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, the problem is that a vast majority in that percentage consider a "threat to Islam" something as simple as not being muslim, or not being a radical muslim, or being gay, of being an independent woman, or being a westerner, or whatever "infidel" is not exactly like their version of Islam.

Unless you can find a poll asking American Muslims, "what do you consider a threat to Islam?" you are really not in a position to make any assumptions about individual poll responders. That is pretty presumptive of you. Obviously, this is part of what is wrong with the question. How one person interprets "threat to Islam" can be completely different than how another interprets it. If a significant number of American Muslims thought that "being a westerner" was a "threat to Islam" and justified suicide bombings, we would be having such bombings daily.

Well, you are very presumptuous to say that Christians and Jews would answer that violence against civilians is an acceptable response to someone threatening your religion.

My argument was that Christians and Jews would be just as likely as Muslims to support such violence. But, you are right, I should support my allegation with data. It turns out that I was wrong. Christians and Jews are not just as likely to support killing innocents civilians as Muslims. They are more likely.

As this poll shows, 58% of Protestants, 58% of Catholics, 52% of Jews, and 64% of Mormons believe that targeting and killing innocent civilians is sometimes justified. In comparison, only 21% of Muslims believe this. Even 43% of Atheists think it is justified.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I am still wondering where and how he got the gun. Germany has very strict gun control laws. All I have heard is that the weapon was not registered to him. He also had 300 rounds of ammo in his backpack when he shot himself.

The German authorities have said there is no evidence of him being radicalized. They are attributing the attack to mental illness.

I am not a big conspiracy theorist, but I also know that the German authorities have every reason to downplay this as an act of radical Islamic terrorism. The German people have not been happy with Merkel’s willingness to take in so many refugees, apparently with little or no vetting.

I would like to know more about how he obtained this weapon.

It is being reported today that he bought the gun on the Internet and had been planning the attack for a year.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36878436

It also appears that at least six of the eight people he killed were Muslims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you an authority on religions to actually make the statement "easter/Christmas Muslims." That is a Christian concept and obviously doesn't apply to secular Muslims. There are plenty of those, particularly Iranians, but you might want to re-consider how you describe them.

That was explained in a tongue and cheek way a few pages back as an analogy..do you know what an analogy is? I am not asking about them though. I am not asking about people who dial.into their faith a few times a year. I am asking where to find fully practicing, devout moderate Muslims. I am not saying they don't exists. I expect there are whole countries of them. Communities that eschew anything and everything that would be considered extreme or fundamentalist. People are saying extreme acts are the deviation from the moderate faith. I am just asking to rattle off the countries and institutions where I will find practicing, devout people of moderate, tolerant views. I am hoping these same entities will take up the baton in projecting a hopeful and tolerant counter message to notions like it would ever be OK to kill civilians etc. Anyways, its obvious you cannot provide the answer and thats OK. I just wanted to clarify what my question was. It was not about the secular, though they have a role too. Have a good day.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, the problem is that a vast majority in that percentage consider a "threat to Islam" something as simple as not being muslim, or not being a radical muslim, or being gay, of being an independent woman, or being a westerner, or whatever "infidel" is not exactly like their version of Islam.

Unless you can find a poll asking American Muslims, "what do you consider a threat to Islam?" you are really not in a position to make any assumptions about individual poll responders. That is pretty presumptive of you. Obviously, this is part of what is wrong with the question. How one person interprets "threat to Islam" can be completely different than how another interprets it. If a significant number of American Muslims thought that "being a westerner" was a "threat to Islam" and justified suicide bombings, we would be having such bombings daily.

Well, you are very presumptuous to say that Christians and Jews would answer that violence against civilians is an acceptable response to someone threatening your religion.

op

My argument was that Christians and Jews would be just as likely as Muslims to support such violence. But, you are right, I should support my allegation with data. It turns out that I was wrong. Christians and Jews are not just as likely to support killing innocents civilians as Muslims. They are more likely.

As this poll shows, 58% of Protestants, 58% of Catholics, 52% of Jews, and 64% of Mormons believe that targeting and killing innocent civilians is sometimes justified. In comparison, only 21% of Muslims believe this. Even 43% of Atheists think it is justified.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

Can you find a poll which asks Jews, Protestants, Catholics etc if it is ever justified to kill civilians to protect their religion?

The poll you found asks about the military in an age of asymmetrical warfare. Many of the people targeted in Obama's drone attacks are technically civilians, because they don't put on a uniform and meet on a battle field. We know that these drone attacks are deeply unpopular in places like Pakistan. It's interesting to look at this poll, but it asks a completely different question.

Ps. What a fascinating polling project

http://www.fastcompany.com/1697972/gallup-opens-abu-dhabi-center

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/gallup-and-think-tank-leave-abu-dhabi

Looks like the prince had a stake and they quite quickly after founding closed down and withdrew their offices. I'd love to know the full story in why that relationship didn't work out. Conflict of interest?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My two cents: the fact that any percentage doesn't detest ISIS says something. And the fact that anyone thinks violent terrorist acts are sometimes justified is also appalling.

Stats like those are worrisome and foster skepticism about the religion.

You may not remember, but Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist in South Africa. Sinn Fein (an Irish group) also committed terrorist acts against the British. In one case, they killed British WWII Veterans during a WWII commemoration march. These were old veterans, not modern day soldiers.

Some extremist Muslims are not the only ones who believe that violent acts are sometimes justified.

?

What's your point? There's no need to tell us that terrorism isn't limited to Islamic extremists...we get that.

But your standard argument of "well, other people do horrific things, too" really doesn't help your case. SMH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My two cents: the fact that any percentage doesn't detest ISIS says something. And the fact that anyone thinks violent terrorist acts are sometimes justified is also appalling.

Stats like those are worrisome and foster skepticism about the religion.

You may not remember, but Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist in South Africa. Sinn Fein (an Irish group) also committed terrorist acts against the British. In one case, they killed British WWII Veterans during a WWII commemoration march. These were old veterans, not modern day soldiers.

Some extremist Muslims are not the only ones who believe that violent acts are sometimes justified.

?

What's your point? There's no need to tell us that terrorism isn't limited to Islamic extremists...we get that.

But your standard argument of "well, other people do horrific things, too" really doesn't help your case. SMH.

What case? I don't condone what terrorists do. But, I am reminding people any group of people can be guilty of condoning violent acts when they feel it is justified. This is not limited to extremists Muslims, or even because of religious reasons.

The point was to the original PP " And the fact that anyone thinks violent terrorist acts are sometimes justified is also appalling." -- I'm reminding Americans that a person whom now the world considers a wonderful person committed terrorists acts. I also forgot to mention that some Irish Americans supported the IRA - the terrorist group - with cash and weapons. So, even some Americans believe violent acts are sometimes justified and have even supported terrorists.

We are too quick to point fingers and find fault in other religions and cultures and forget our own faults and follies. It's called hypocrisy.

[Anonymous]

This article says support for the IRA was extreme limited.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/reports/america.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My two cents: the fact that any percentage doesn't detest ISIS says something. And the fact that anyone thinks violent terrorist acts are sometimes justified is also appalling.

Stats like those are worrisome and foster skepticism about the religion.

You may not remember, but Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist in South Africa. Sinn Fein (an Irish group) also committed terrorist acts against the British. In one case, they killed British WWII Veterans during a WWII commemoration march. These were old veterans, not modern day soldiers.

Some extremist Muslims are not the only ones who believe that violent acts are sometimes justified.

?

What's your point? There's no need to tell us that terrorism isn't limited to Islamic extremists...we get that.

But your standard argument of "well, other people do horrific things, too" really doesn't help your case. SMH.

What case? I don't condone what terrorists do. But, I am reminding people any group of people can be guilty of condoning violent acts when they feel it is justified. This is not limited to extremists Muslims, or even because of religious reasons.

The point was to the original PP " And the fact that anyone thinks violent terrorist acts are sometimes justified is also appalling." -- I'm reminding Americans that a person whom now the world considers a wonderful person committed terrorists acts. I also forgot to mention that some Irish Americans supported the IRA - the terrorist group - with cash and weapons. So, even some Americans believe violent acts are sometimes justified and have even supported terrorists.

We are too quick to point fingers and find fault in other religions and cultures and forget our own faults and follies. It's called hypocrisy.

And by the way, I find your words "even some Americans..." Very revealing. We are talking about some Americans - Muslim Americans who answered the Pew Poll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: It's totally acceptable. Except huge portions of the Muslim world are not in any way secular or 'easter/christmas' Muslims (using the Christian analogy). Where are the large groups of fully practicing moderate Muslims was my question?

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. They're everywhere, but it seems like you prefer to believe they are not.

+1. How do you KNOW there aren't other places with secular or easter/Christmas Muslims? Are you some sort of authority on religious practices? Or do you think the entire middle east is Saudi -- which I as a Muslim consider batshit. If you need actual countries/cities -- HUGE group of non practicing/secular/cafeteria Muslims in Egypt; Dubai; Jordan. Of course you won't believe me bc in your mind, no way can a Middle Eastern Muslim be non practicing. Also I think you're overlooking the U.S. also.

Again, where are the moderate practicing Muslims and who is their spokesperson/authority?

Basically, you are telling me to be moderate you have to be a non practicing Muslim. Thats startling.

Who's telling you moderate = non practicing? Some of my Muslim friends pray 5 times a day and observe Ramadan as instructed. They're not crazy, or talking about infidels.

Also, Islam is more about a personal relationship with God than Christianity. There's no praying to saints or pope to follow. Imams lead prayer, not give fire and brimstone sermons. I'm sure they do some counseling too, but it's not like Christianity. My friends don't regularly attend prayers at a mosque. They go pray and break their fast together a few days during Ramadan.

There is no spokesperson or leader for the followers of Islam. If you can wrap your head around different priorities in practicing their religion, this would be easier to understand. I am a devout atheist. I know about Islam because I've made the time to study about religions. I recommend you do the same. If you even took the time to read about Ramadan and Eid, you would understand a whole lot more. A comparative look at religions is not going to help you. See it from another perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: It's totally acceptable. Except huge portions of the Muslim world are not in any way secular or 'easter/christmas' Muslims (using the Christian analogy). Where are the large groups of fully practicing moderate Muslims was my question?

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. They're everywhere, but it seems like you prefer to believe they are not.

+1. How do you KNOW there aren't other places with secular or easter/Christmas Muslims? Are you some sort of authority on religious practices? Or do you think the entire middle east is Saudi -- which I as a Muslim consider batshit. If you need actual countries/cities -- HUGE group of non practicing/secular/cafeteria Muslims in Egypt; Dubai; Jordan. Of course you won't believe me bc in your mind, no way can a Middle Eastern Muslim be non practicing. Also I think you're overlooking the U.S. also.

Again, where are the moderate practicing Muslims and who is their spokesperson/authority?

Basically, you are telling me to be moderate you have to be a non practicing Muslim. Thats startling.

Who's telling you moderate = non practicing? Some of my Muslim friends pray 5 times a day and observe Ramadan as instructed. They're not crazy, or talking about infidels.

Also, Islam is more about a personal relationship with God than Christianity. There's no praying to saints or pope to follow. Imams lead prayer, not give fire and brimstone sermons. I'm sure they do some counseling too, but it's not like Christianity. My friends don't regularly attend prayers at a mosque. They go pray and break their fast together a few days during Ramadan.

There is no spokesperson or leader for the followers of Islam. If you can wrap your head around different priorities in practicing their religion, this would be easier to understand. I am a devout atheist. I know about Islam because I've made the time to study about religions. I recommend you do the same. If you even took the time to read about Ramadan and Eid, you would understand a whole lot more. A comparative look at religions is not going to help you. See it from another perspective.

tbh, PP - Who has the TIME to learn about ancient beliefs that run the lives of "educated" folks?

Why should I be a slave to any religion? It shouldn't be MY responsibility to learn about the tenets of Islam - or any other religion for that matter.

Hey - don't knock a comparative religions course. At least college students are earning credit.