Better protocols needed to account for classified documents handled by political officials et Al …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

I see. You're claiming someone framed Biden.

Any evidence of that?

No, I’m not, you loon. It’s pretty well documented that staffers pack these boxes during transitions. And inadvertent error by a staffer =/= a conscious decision by Biden to remove classified documents. How is it that this can be explained to you 23 times and you still cannot comprehend it?

Where is this documented? What is the name of the staffer who packed that box? Was it the same staffer who delivered the documents to UPenn?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not be shocked if we eventually discover the documents were planted - and a top suspect would be Biden's own Secret Service detail. They are untrustworthy and many are Trump loyalists. They deleted text messages on J6, against direct orders to retain them. They knew of threats against Pelosi but did not warn anyone until after the Capitol had already been breached. There are so very many red flags, none of which have been addressed.

So far, there are no evidence of this, so stop with your conspiracy theories.

[Anonymous]

I believe it was a dog who took those classified materials and took them to so many places without anyone realizing anything.

Either that or a bird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

I see. You're claiming someone framed Biden.

Any evidence of that?

No, I’m not, you loon. It’s pretty well documented that staffers pack these boxes during transitions. And inadvertent error by a staffer =/= a conscious decision by Biden to remove classified documents. How is it that this can be explained to you 23 times and you still cannot comprehend it?

Wait, we can use the a staffer did it as a get out of jail free card? Better not tell Trump this.

A random staffer wouldn't have had access to the sheer volume and specific types of documents that Trump had. There were over a dozen entire bankers boxes, stuffed full. Special Access Program, above TS/SCI, documents that literally only a handful of people have access to. That was an entire library of documents that was collected up by Trump over the span of years.

Compare that to what was found in Biden's records - it was things like 5 pages, mostly belonging to the same document, which got mixed in with a bunch of other office papers. And, with nowhere near as stringent classification level. Easy mistake for a staffer to have made.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

I see. You're claiming someone framed Biden.

Any evidence of that?

No, I’m not, you loon. It’s pretty well documented that staffers pack these boxes during transitions. And inadvertent error by a staffer =/= a conscious decision by Biden to remove classified documents. How is it that this can be explained to you 23 times and you still cannot comprehend it?

Wait, we can use the a staffer did it as a get out of jail free card? Better not tell Trump this.

A random staffer wouldn't have had access to the sheer volume and specific types of documents that Trump had. There were over a dozen entire bankers boxes, stuffed full. Special Access Program, above TS/SCI, documents that literally only a handful of people have access to. That was an entire library of documents that was collected up by Trump over the span of years.

Compare that to what was found in Biden's records - it was things like 5 pages, mostly belonging to the same document, which got mixed in with a bunch of other office papers. And, with nowhere near as stringent classification level. Easy mistake for a staffer to have made.

False.

Three locations -- so far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not be shocked if we eventually discover the documents were planted - and a top suspect would be Biden's own Secret Service detail. They are untrustworthy and many are Trump loyalists. They deleted text messages on J6, against direct orders to retain them. They knew of threats against Pelosi but did not warn anyone until after the Capitol had already been breached. There are so very many red flags, none of which have been addressed.

Anything is possible these days. I'm not letting anyone - Biden or SS or anyone else - off the hook until we get the results of a thorough investigation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

I see. You're claiming someone framed Biden.

Any evidence of that?

No, I’m not, you loon. It’s pretty well documented that staffers pack these boxes during transitions. And inadvertent error by a staffer =/= a conscious decision by Biden to remove classified documents. How is it that this can be explained to you 23 times and you still cannot comprehend it?

Wait, we can use the a staffer did it as a get out of jail free card? Better not tell Trump this.

A random staffer wouldn't have had access to the sheer volume and specific types of documents that Trump had. There were over a dozen entire bankers boxes, stuffed full. Special Access Program, above TS/SCI, documents that literally only a handful of people have access to. That was an entire library of documents that was collected up by Trump over the span of years.

Compare that to what was found in Biden's records - it was things like 5 pages, mostly belonging to the same document, which got mixed in with a bunch of other office papers. And, with nowhere near as stringent classification level. Easy mistake for a staffer to have made.

False.

Three locations -- so far.

The content of the documents is where the real meat is

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

I agree with most of this PP. I think both events can be acknowledged as different yet concerning. What I would ask is at what point do you go from thinking this is extreme sloppiness by certain individuals to why are the SOPs for this not working and what can we change or improve so that people who are not trying to move or withold classified documents inappropriately are better able to do so? You have to get there at some point; are we not there yet?

I am the PP you are responding to and I get your point. I think where I’m coming from is that these procedures work for the standard guy who screws up—they don’t just walk away, they are held accountable because there are so many protocols in place already that for someone to walk away with classified material, it’s almost a safe assumption that it was deliberate. You don’t accidentally take that piece of paper that’s marked up with the word “classified” or “secret” and accidentally slip it into your notebook. Therefore repercussions are put in place. You don’t accidentally send classified material via email to an unclassified network or computer, because those two “worlds” don’t talk, hence all the fingers that were pointed at Hillary. Whether she or her staffer knowingly copied data and the posted it on an unclassified server somehow, or recited classified info on an unclassified computer and sent it that way, it’s all prohibited. It wasn’t a “whoops”, and we assume this to be true because there are protocols in place to prevent this from happening.

So, sure, are there other things we can do to prevent this from happening? Absolutely. But until we start buttoning up access to classified data and holding people AT ALL LEVELS accountable for its storage, transfer and content, adding more protocols is useless. To have very senior officials (the most senior!) sit back and act like, “well that guy did it too!” is bullshit. And before anyone accuses me of thinking anything Trump did was okay, I do not. I despise Trump. But these ridiculous exercises of making this, too, political are making my head hurt. Possession of a security clearance requires routine training and makes it abundantly clear how this information should be handled and what happens when it’s mishandled. This is simply wrong and someone’s head needs to roll in all/any of these circumstances, regardless of party. If someone thinks a locked garage behind a Corvette is a better landing place than Mar A Lago, or vice versa, then they are missing the real issue here.

OP here — I agreed. The process improvement holes I see involve scrutinizing the top level people more rather than what appears from the outside an honor system.

[Anonymous]

This is just ludicrous.

The FBI declined to do a search. So, we are now left with relying on an "honor system" WRT searching for these documents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

I agree with most of this PP. I think both events can be acknowledged as different yet concerning. What I would ask is at what point do you go from thinking this is extreme sloppiness by certain individuals to why are the SOPs for this not working and what can we change or improve so that people who are not trying to move or withold classified documents inappropriately are better able to do so? You have to get there at some point; are we not there yet?

I am the PP you are responding to and I get your point. I think where I’m coming from is that these procedures work for the standard guy who screws up—they don’t just walk away, they are held accountable because there are so many protocols in place already that for someone to walk away with classified material, it’s almost a safe assumption that it was deliberate. You don’t accidentally take that piece of paper that’s marked up with the word “classified” or “secret” and accidentally slip it into your notebook. Therefore repercussions are put in place. You don’t accidentally send classified material via email to an unclassified network or computer, because those two “worlds” don’t talk, hence all the fingers that were pointed at Hillary. Whether she or her staffer knowingly copied data and the posted it on an unclassified server somehow, or recited classified info on an unclassified computer and sent it that way, it’s all prohibited. It wasn’t a “whoops”, and we assume this to be true because there are protocols in place to prevent this from happening.

So, sure, are there other things we can do to prevent this from happening? Absolutely. But until we start buttoning up access to classified data and holding people AT ALL LEVELS accountable for its storage, transfer and content, adding more protocols is useless. To have very senior officials (the most senior!) sit back and act like, “well that guy did it too!” is bullshit. And before anyone accuses me of thinking anything Trump did was okay, I do not. I despise Trump. But these ridiculous exercises of making this, too, political are making my head hurt. Possession of a security clearance requires routine training and makes it abundantly clear how this information should be handled and what happens when it’s mishandled. This is simply wrong and someone’s head needs to roll in all/any of these circumstances, regardless of party. If someone thinks a locked garage behind a Corvette is a better landing place than Mar A Lago, or vice versa, then they are missing the real issue here.

OP here — I agreed. The process improvement holes I see involve scrutinizing the top level people more rather than what appears from the outside an honor system.

PP again. Can you tell me what you mean by an honor system? To be clear, even with a clearance, you can’t just go into the SCIF and take a document, remove it, etc. There is a checks and balances process in place whereby the security director ensures documents are signed out for viewing, transported in the proper locked bag, etc. None of this happens in a vacuum where it’s easy to take a doc and shove it in your sock, a la Sandy Berger who worked for Bill Clinton. Documents are signed out, signed in, their transfer is carefully arranged, etc.

And it definitely seems like those at the top are the laziest with all this, and if the administration is lazy with security protocols (and the previous one too!) then they’re less likely to notice if something is missing…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- the handling procedures need to be reviewed with politicians on a regular basis going forward. People are losing confidence that documents are handled properly, and these things inflame one side or the other. The politicians seem so casual in handling these docs.

Please show where the Biden archive was causal in handling these documents before you go bOtH-sIdInG this.

Doesn't matter if these documents were under lock and key if they were not at the proper storage facility. That is casual. Accidents happen. Get the darn documents from every politician who no longer has a right to keeping them. It's great that people were aware enough to say they found classified materials that need to be put away. They should've been put away years ago. Since they were not on several occasions in the recent past, the process needs to be improved. I guess you don't care some future politician walks away -- purposely or not -- with SCI documents. I'm not calling for criminal charges -- I'm calling for standard process improvement.

Not sure what “process improvement” needs to happen when any idiot who possesses a security clearance knows that classified documents are not to be removed from classified settings (SCIFs) unless they are being transported using appropriate protocols. However these documents got out (in Trump’s case or now in Biden’s) is extreme recklessness and should be prosecuted. You don’t just suddenly look down at your home desk and realize you’ve got some classified docs there that were “accidentally” removed. There are already very clear procedures in place for removing those documents and if you screw up, you are liable. For the common man, there is no allowance for mishaps, forgetting to return documents, transporting documents through means other than zippered and locked bags….if you screw it up, you are liable regardless of intent. There is no “whoops” in the mishandling of classified documents.

Do I think Biden purposely withheld those documents and threw them in a box in his garage? Probably not. But this points to extreme sloppiness in the handling of classified materials on the part of his office and staff, and that’s no small thing.

For all the people bending over backwards to say that storing classified material in a garage is better than Mar a Lago, just stop. None of it is okay. There’s so “well this situation is different…”. I despise Trump, always have, always will…but Saying that the Biden camp has been absolutely forthcoming with three or four different locations of materials found supposedly three months or so after Biden ripped Trump for being so careless and irresponsible (and rightfully so) doesn’t make Biden’s story any better.

I agree with most of this PP. I think both events can be acknowledged as different yet concerning. What I would ask is at what point do you go from thinking this is extreme sloppiness by certain individuals to why are the SOPs for this not working and what can we change or improve so that people who are not trying to move or withold classified documents inappropriately are better able to do so? You have to get there at some point; are we not there yet?

I am the PP you are responding to and I get your point. I think where I’m coming from is that these procedures work for the standard guy who screws up—they don’t just walk away, they are held accountable because there are so many protocols in place already that for someone to walk away with classified material, it’s almost a safe assumption that it was deliberate. You don’t accidentally take that piece of paper that’s marked up with the word “classified” or “secret” and accidentally slip it into your notebook. Therefore repercussions are put in place. You don’t accidentally send classified material via email to an unclassified network or computer, because those two “worlds” don’t talk, hence all the fingers that were pointed at Hillary. Whether she or her staffer knowingly copied data and the posted it on an unclassified server somehow, or recited classified info on an unclassified computer and sent it that way, it’s all prohibited. It wasn’t a “whoops”, and we assume this to be true because there are protocols in place to prevent this from happening.

So, sure, are there other things we can do to prevent this from happening? Absolutely. But until we start buttoning up access to classified data and holding people AT ALL LEVELS accountable for its storage, transfer and content, adding more protocols is useless. To have very senior officials (the most senior!) sit back and act like, “well that guy did it too!” is bullshit. And before anyone accuses me of thinking anything Trump did was okay, I do not. I despise Trump. But these ridiculous exercises of making this, too, political are making my head hurt. Possession of a security clearance requires routine training and makes it abundantly clear how this information should be handled and what happens when it’s mishandled. This is simply wrong and someone’s head needs to roll in all/any of these circumstances, regardless of party. If someone thinks a locked garage behind a Corvette is a better landing place than Mar A Lago, or vice versa, then they are missing the real issue here.

OP here — I agreed. The process improvement holes I see involve scrutinizing the top level people more rather than what appears from the outside an honor system.

PP again. Can you tell me what you mean by an honor system? To be clear, even with a clearance, you can’t just go into the SCIF and take a document, remove it, etc. There is a checks and balances process in place whereby the security director ensures documents are signed out for viewing, transported in the proper locked bag, etc. None of this happens in a vacuum where it’s easy to take a doc and shove it in your sock, a la Sandy Berger who worked for Bill Clinton. Documents are signed out, signed in, their transfer is carefully arranged, etc.

And it definitely seems like those at the top are the laziest with all this, and if the administration is lazy with security protocols (and the previous one too!) then they’re less likely to notice if something is missing…

PP again….or do you mean “honor system” as referenced above in Jonathan Turley comments? Sorry, didn’t read that until after I hit send.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A VP taking a TOP SECRET document home = Crime.

Leaving it unsecured for years = Crime.

Returning it after an untold number of people may have had access to it = Irrelevant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Try again.

I see. You're claiming someone framed Biden.

Any evidence of that?

No, I’m not, you loon. It’s pretty well documented that staffers pack these boxes during transitions. And inadvertent error by a staffer =/= a conscious decision by Biden to remove classified documents. How is it that this can be explained to you 23 times and you still cannot comprehend it?

Wait, we can use the a staffer did it as a get out of jail free card? Better not tell Trump this.

A random staffer wouldn't have had access to the sheer volume and specific types of documents that Trump had. There were over a dozen entire bankers boxes, stuffed full. Special Access Program, above TS/SCI, documents that literally only a handful of people have access to. That was an entire library of documents that was collected up by Trump over the span of years.

Compare that to what was found in Biden's records - it was things like 5 pages, mostly belonging to the same document, which got mixed in with a bunch of other office papers. And, with nowhere near as stringent classification level. Easy mistake for a staffer to have made.

False.

Three locations -- so far.

The content of the documents is where the real meat is

We STILL don't know how many locations Trump hid banker boxes full of documents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ken Dilanian's name is on an article. He is a Democrat favorite for leaking stories. Which means they wanted this story out there. The question is why?

Because it’s wrong? You’d rather them cover it up? Wow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ken Dilanian's name is on an article. He is a Democrat favorite for leaking stories. Which means they wanted this story out there. The question is why?

Because it’s wrong? You’d rather them cover it up? Wow.

They tried to keep it quiet and cover it up, but someone with integrity knew doing that was wrong.

[Anonymous]

Looks like Congress will be able to get a list of those entering the Delaware residence.....

Fox News is now reporting that, on second thought, it turns out that the Secret Service does keep records of who visits the president at his private homes, and that it is prepared to turn over the information if requested to do so by Congress. The agency’s spokesman, Anthony Guglielmi, explains that while a document called a “visitors log” is not kept, “Secret Service does generate law enforcement and criminal justice information records for various individuals who may come into contact with Secret Service protected sites,” such as the president’s residences.