Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd like it to be 2 days too. Maybe Thanksgiving Thursday stays, and day after, Friday, is a Native American day of remembrance.

I’d like this. I’d like it even more if we could do celebrate with something other than a shopping frenzy.

Why do you hate America

NP. I hate genocide.

Tell that to the Aztecs. They slaughtered thousands of other Native-American tribes in Mexico long before any Europeans arrived.

So did the Comanches.

There’s a reason some Indians fought with the new settlers: they hated the other tribes.

You know the saying: the enemy of my enemy…

Ok. The Comanche Nation can decide how to address violence it committed against other tribes.

And the US government can determine how to address violence it committed against all tribes.

The government has already given them tax free land where the US has no jurisdiction (can’t make arrests or enforce laws, can’t repossess cars they default on, etc). The government also gave them gaming rights/casinos which more than support some tribes.

The end result of their arguably privileged status isn’t great (rampant alcoholism and family violence/sexual abuse/murder-“disappearance.”

They got what freed slaves never got. Hard to say who fared better. Their self-imposed segregation gave them land, money and autonomy, but they were also largely forgotten on the east coast and elsewhere. Plus all the bad stuff that happens on their land due to their set up.

how is being rounded up from their homeland at gunpoint and marched a thousand miles during winter to a reservation, during which time 40 percent of their members died, a "self imposed segregation"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

Are American Indians citizens of separate sovereign countries? Or not?

they have had dual citizenship since 1924

read a book

Huh? Tribal territories are not recognized as separate and sovereign nations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

Are American Indians citizens of separate sovereign countries? Or not?

they have had dual citizenship since 1924

read a book

You're implying that American Indians want the US government to solve their problems for them.

Just so we're both clear about what you are trying to say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like it to be 2 days too. Maybe Thanksgiving Thursday stays, and day after, Friday, is a Native American day of remembrance.

I’d like this. I’d like it even more if we could do celebrate with something other than a shopping frenzy.

Why do you hate America

NP. I hate genocide.

Tell that to the Aztecs. They slaughtered thousands of other Native-American tribes in Mexico long before any Europeans arrived.

So did the Comanches.

There’s a reason some Indians fought with the new settlers: they hated the other tribes.

You know the saying: the enemy of my enemy…

Ok. The Comanche Nation can decide how to address violence it committed against other tribes.

And the US government can determine how to address violence it committed against all tribes.

The government has already given them tax free land where the US has no jurisdiction (can’t make arrests or enforce laws, can’t repossess cars they default on, etc). The government also gave them gaming rights/casinos which more than support some tribes.

The end result of their arguably privileged status isn’t great (rampant alcoholism and family violence/sexual abuse/murder-“disappearance.”

They got what freed slaves never got. Hard to say who fared better. Their self-imposed segregation gave them land, money and autonomy, but they were also largely forgotten on the east coast and elsewhere. Plus all the bad stuff that happens on their land due to their set up.

how is being rounded up from their homeland at gunpoint and marched a thousand miles during winter to a reservation, during which time 40 percent of their members died, a "self imposed segregation"

There's a bit more than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Indigenous groups and land-back advocates believe so, and they will gather at the rock called Plymouth to demonstrate.

Should we at least change the name?

It's hard to believe your outrage when you have not ceded the land on which your house stands back to the indigenous tribe from which it was stolen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

+1000

Plus, if you step foot on this continent you are occupying stolen land.

How could it be “stolen” from people who had no private property that they owned to begin with?

Huh? Because they didn’t have written land deeds recorded at the county courthouse it didn’t belong to them?

A tribe can only hold onto land until a stronger tribe comes along and takes it from them. That's the way of the world.

No, we're not giving our land back to tribes that couldn't hold onto it in the first place.

Question here, would you support more modern day colonization? If the US is a "stronger tribe" why do we not just go overtake a lot more land mass than we already have? We are getting crowded and low on natural resources....why not go take them?

Trust me if we needed to, we would. The same way if your children were hungry, you'd steal from your neighbor.

But what does it mean to "need to." Did the early settlers "need to" take over this land? And later did the British government "need to" formally invade and take over?

I read the PP as saying that it is "the way of the world" for people to just take what they want as long as they have the force to do it.

Yes actually European immigration was largely based on necessity. Things like famine and class/religious persecution. The wealthy few were exploiting the whole thing for massive personal gain but that is still happening today.

This is not a well-informed viewpoint. The formal government of the country invaded, and it wasn't because of either famine or class/religious persecution.

The formal “government”?! You mean a brutal blood-line Monarchy that had perfected the art of subjugation over the course of thousands of years? That’s the fault of the commoner?

I'm not sure what you are taking issue with. One PP said that populations should only colonize out of necessity. Another said that there was a necessity because of poverty and starvation. I said that was not the reason. It was the government (say rulers if you want) that did it to gain more wealth.

Where do you see a fault in that?

The Kings stayed in Europe. The actual human beings that physically immigrated to the continent were largely escaping horrible oppression and poverty in Europe. Those are simple facts. I have no idea what is so confusing about that. It’s documented historical fact.

What group of people, specifically, are you talking about?

I don’t dispute that there were poor people involved. But your reductionist view is simply not “documented historical fact.”

DP. This is AP US History. The Quakers came to escape persecution and settled in Pennsylvania. The Catholics came to Maryland to escape persecution. The pilgrims, Moravians, and others left Europe to escape persecution. Many others were poor and looking for new opportunities, or they came over as indentured servants.

Catholics settled in Maryland because THE KING OF ENGLAND gave Lord Baltimore a land grant in exchange for a share of the profits from the colonization.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-settlement-of-maryland

Because Catholics were barely tolerated in Britain at the time. I'm not Catholic but I live in Maryland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like it to be 2 days too. Maybe Thanksgiving Thursday stays, and day after, Friday, is a Native American day of remembrance.

I’d like this. I’d like it even more if we could do celebrate with something other than a shopping frenzy.

Why do you hate America

NP. I hate genocide.

Tell that to the Aztecs. They slaughtered thousands of other Native-American tribes in Mexico long before any Europeans arrived.

So did the Comanches.

There’s a reason some Indians fought with the new settlers: they hated the other tribes.

You know the saying: the enemy of my enemy…

Ok. The Comanche Nation can decide how to address violence it committed against other tribes.

And the US government can determine how to address violence it committed against all tribes.

The government has already given them tax free land where the US has no jurisdiction (can’t make arrests or enforce laws, can’t repossess cars they default on, etc). The government also gave them gaming rights/casinos which more than support some tribes.

The end result of their arguably privileged status isn’t great (rampant alcoholism and family violence/sexual abuse/murder-“disappearance.”

They got what freed slaves never got. Hard to say who fared better. Their self-imposed segregation gave them land, money and autonomy, but they were also largely forgotten on the east coast and elsewhere. Plus all the bad stuff that happens on their land due to their set up.

the US government has given the tribes tax free land?

I can't even begin with this sentence

NP: I dunno. I was also struck by the “self-imposed segregation “ part. Is that what the anti-CRT folks are calling the genocidal massacres like the Trail of Tears now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like it to be 2 days too. Maybe Thanksgiving Thursday stays, and day after, Friday, is a Native American day of remembrance.

I’d like this. I’d like it even more if we could do celebrate with something other than a shopping frenzy.

Why do you hate America

NP. I hate genocide.

Tell that to the Aztecs. They slaughtered thousands of other Native-American tribes in Mexico long before any Europeans arrived.

So did the Comanches.

There’s a reason some Indians fought with the new settlers: they hated the other tribes.

You know the saying: the enemy of my enemy…

Ok. The Comanche Nation can decide how to address violence it committed against other tribes.

And the US government can determine how to address violence it committed against all tribes.

The government has already given them tax free land where the US has no jurisdiction (can’t make arrests or enforce laws, can’t repossess cars they default on, etc). The government also gave them gaming rights/casinos which more than support some tribes.

The end result of their arguably privileged status isn’t great (rampant alcoholism and family violence/sexual abuse/murder-“disappearance.”

They got what freed slaves never got. Hard to say who fared better. Their self-imposed segregation gave them land, money and autonomy, but they were also largely forgotten on the east coast and elsewhere. Plus all the bad stuff that happens on their land due to their set up.

the US government has given the tribes tax free land?

I can't even begin with this sentence

NP: I dunno. I was also struck by the “self-imposed segregation “ part. Is that what the anti-CRT folks are calling the genocidal massacres like the Trail of Tears now?

+1

I’m *hoping* it’s just ignorance.

[Anonymous]

Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like it to be 2 days too. Maybe Thanksgiving Thursday stays, and day after, Friday, is a Native American day of remembrance.

I’d like this. I’d like it even more if we could do celebrate with something other than a shopping frenzy.

Why do you hate America

NP. I hate genocide.

Tell that to the Aztecs. They slaughtered thousands of other Native-American tribes in Mexico long before any Europeans arrived.

So did the Comanches.

There’s a reason some Indians fought with the new settlers: they hated the other tribes.

You know the saying: the enemy of my enemy…

Ok. The Comanche Nation can decide how to address violence it committed against other tribes.

And the US government can determine how to address violence it committed against all tribes.

The government has already given them tax free land where the US has no jurisdiction (can’t make arrests or enforce laws, can’t repossess cars they default on, etc). The government also gave them gaming rights/casinos which more than support some tribes.

The end result of their arguably privileged status isn’t great (rampant alcoholism and family violence/sexual abuse/murder-“disappearance.”

They got what freed slaves never got. Hard to say who fared better. Their self-imposed segregation gave them land, money and autonomy, but they were also largely forgotten on the east coast and elsewhere. Plus all the bad stuff that happens on their land due to their set up.

how is being rounded up from their homeland at gunpoint and marched a thousand miles during winter to a reservation, during which time 40 percent of their members died, a "self imposed segregation"

What does that have to do with Thanksgiving?

[Anonymous]

All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.

If it’s by choice, sure.

When it’s done by force, it’s horrific. Truly a human rights violation.

They were forced to give up their language, religion, culture, family, community knowledge, dress, traditions, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You cannot fault the Europeans, who at the time did not understand the germ nature of disease, for the killing of natives who had no immunity to European diseases. The stories of Europeans deliberately bringing smallpox to natives were true, but they were the exception not the rule. In the 14th Century Europeans nearly all went extinct during the Black Death--who you gonna blame for that?

We can certainly fault them for violence and oppression.

Who cares? Everyone who did whatever bad things you want to list is long dead.

My family came to this continent in 1981. I don't have any responsibility or guilt for something that was done by people centuries ago.

One of the great things about the US is that you're not held guilty for the sins of your ancestors.

The atrocities perpetrated on Native Americans are not just historical footnotes from long ago. The effects of centuries of oppression of Native Americans are still felt very keenly today. They continue to suffer disproportionately from poverty, alcoholism, lack of access to appropriate medical care, and domestic violence. Native American women and girls are murdered at a far higher rate than women in general. We don’t need to feel guilt over how we got to this place, but we certainly shouldn’t turn a blind eye to suffering and pretend that it’s not relevant to us.

Are American Indians citizens of separate sovereign countries? Or not?

they have had dual citizenship since 1924

read a book

Huh? Tribal territories are not recognized as separate and sovereign nations.

Tribal governments are sovereign governments, similar in some ways to states and territories and similar in other ways to foreign nations. They all have government-to-government treaties with the US. If you are a registered tribal member with a tribal ID, you can use that in lieu of a state-issued ID within the US (for example, as a Real ID at the airport) but you can’t use it like a US passport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All races, all groups of human beings, are both good and evil, kind and ruthlessly cruel. All of us. Every group, on every continent, throughout history. If it hadn't been whites, it would have been another group or native Americans themselves. Such is life on planet earth.

We aren’t talking about all groups of humans everywhere. We are specifically talking about Native Americans who once occupied that very spot where you’ll be parked on the couch watching football tomorrow. We are specifically talking about the US government’s violence and oppression of these people.

Just because it happened at other times doesn’t excuse it.

The point is, it’s not “other times.” There are current land treaties that the current US is in violation of. If you are a US citizen, it is your current government (of the people, by the people) that is currently in the wrong.