If you are a working mom, why?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I find sitting around while kids nap painfully boring.

They sleep 10 hours a night and 4 hours a day.

If I work 8 hours I only miss 4 hours of their life. I think it’s weird to want to be with your kids every.single.minute.

I think even SAHM’s agree that is why they are so into independent play. So they aren’t even with their kids every.single.minute.

I don’t clean.

I love to cook though.

I don’t want to be sick of my kids. I treasure all my time with them. I’m the crazy mom that will do the “carpool” but not ask you to drive. I love getting home from work and doing play dates. I love the zoo at 5pm-8pm.

My H feels the same way.

You wouldn't be "bored" for the four hours a day they were sleeping if you stayed home with them. You'd be grateful for the four hours of rest, peace and quiet. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Well, some people like to be intellectually stimulated. And sitting at home while a kid naps isn't great for that. Maybe you have no idea what you're talking about.

Meh, I like to be mentally stimulated as well - but as someone who has been both a full time sahm and someone who currently works full time with high schoolers - the amount of stress of working far exceeds the amount of mental stimulation occurring. I actually get far more mental stimulation helping my kids with their homework than I do with a full day of my job or when I had more Time for reading when my kids napped. I actually read A TON when my kids were young and I wasn't working. I reread and read all the classics and loved every second of it. Less time to do that now.

People walking around complaining that being a mom to young children isn't "mentally stimulating" enough for them are missing the point. Your job is to use YOUR brain to stimulate THEIR brains. Not just to walk around pompously talking about how boring you find nap time.

I agree with you, but apparently many parents feel that their children are better off spending that time with underpaid, undereducated, under dedicated and often constantly changing daycare workers. Not to say that some daycare workers and situations aren't okay but I much preferred to be my children's primary influence when they were birth to about age 4 with some half day preschool thrown in. I didn't find it boring at all, I had plenty to do to stimulate my mind and theirs and to keep life interesting. Then when they were in school full time I pursued my career. It worked out great, my kids are grown now and they are my evidence that I did the right thing for my family. Certainly not for everyone obviously but kind or ridiculous to assume all SAHMs are going to be bored while the baby takes a nap.

It baffles me that you think the kind of woman with a career worth going back to, who is successful in her field, doesn’t vet her childcare providers. The only point I agree with is that they’re underpaid and that’s why I make it my business to give extremely generous gifts. Undereducated? My daughter’s infant teacher didn’t have a college degree, you’re right. She did have grandchildren, humor, kindness and endless patience. Underdedicated? Not if you’re in a place that values their staff and treats them well. Same about “constantly changing”.

Honestly your views on the people, primarily women, who work in childcare say quite a lot about you. If you want to be hostile to my choice to return to work— or insecure about your choice to stay home— that’s cool. But bashing women who work in childcare in this high cost of living area is a pretty ugly look.

Your anecdotal evidence based on your own childcare providers doesn't actually prove much. I have worked at a daycare center, provided home daycare and know a number of daycare workers. I'm not bashing women who work in childcare centers, I'm talking about who is actually the typical daycare provider (not all) and they are underpaid, they are under educated and staff changes often which indicates under dedicated. I'm not making this up. You can deny it, or you can say your nanny makes great money and has a advanced degree but that doesn't change the demographics of typical daycare providers in this country.

I'm pretty sick of some working moms who act like any idiot can properly care for infants and toddlers. I disagree. For my own kids I felt it was important to provide their early childcare myself. My husband wanted to do it too but he made more money than me so he reluctantly agreed to work but he definitely wanted to stay home with our kids when they were little. I had no problem establishing a career once they were in school.

I think society is paying a price for so many kids being raised by subpar daycare workers. Not ALL kids, but definitely a significant number. You can take that as hostility toward you if you want but I have zero insecurity about my decision to stay home with my kids before they started school. They are adults and they are all the proof I need that I did the right thing.

The trouble with trying to backtrack on Internet forums is that the quote function is right there. So, let’s review how you chose to “not bash” women in childcare centers, shall we?

“many parents feel that their children are better off spending that time with underpaid, undereducated, under dedicated and often constantly changing daycare workers.”

Everyone agrees with you that childcare workers in the United States are underpaid. Where I found your comments to be absolutely disgusting was in calling them “underdedicated”. Particularly in the pandemic, childcare workers who were caring for the children of doctors and nurses were risking their lives and staying on the job when, in many cases, unemployment benefits would have been giving them more money then their salaries. That is remarkably dedicated and did they get a word of praise from media, as doctors, nurses and grocery store clerks did? I sure didn’t hear it.

Now if we want to take your personal anecdata I absolutely believe you that you worked in daycare centers providing subpar care, and provided home daycare that was subpar. Your sample size of one bad daycare provider is accepted. I will also believe you that you were underpaid, undereducated and underdedicated, as you would be the most relevant expert on that fact.

I also have to quibble with your idea that “many mothers” believe that “any idiot” can take care of an infant. Do fathers all undergo brainwashing on the day that childcare is chosen? Does my MBA-wielding husband somehow lose his ability to do analyses that day? Remarkable.

I feel like you are being severely judgmental toward me, I can only assume it comes from a place of insecurity about your own decisions. I'm sure you see at least a kernel of truth in what I said but feel compelled to argue with it anyway and attack me personally, as others also have, even though none of you have one iota of knowledge about me, my background, my actual experiences or my relationship with my own children (which another PP was quite sure she could characterize accurately) which makes perfect sense to me because I'm quite sure many working parents have many misgivings about who is caring for their children when they are infants and toddlers. I notice nobody has argued at all with the concept that our society is paying a heavy price for all the children who are being cared for in subpar daycare situations during their critical first years. Hard to argue with that. Especially since there is evidence everywhere.

The reason I’m not engaging with your “society is going to pay a heavy price!” malarkey is because, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, society is literally held together by mothers who work. They’re your grandchild’s heart surgeon, if god forbid they need it. They’re our nurses. They’re our teachers. They’re our lawyers and our diplomats and our scientists. When you show up at your doctors office in pain, do you want someone to care for you or not? Do you want someone to answer 911 when you call, or not?

You are not some kind of a victim just because people are telling you that you’re wrong.

I don't see myself as any kind of victim, however apparently on DCUM the worst insult or comment you can make is that someone makes you or others feel judged. So I thought I'd try it too since others are trying to attack me by saying I am extremely judgmental. Just pointing out, all of you are as well.

Also, I have no problem whatsoever with women in every possible job or career. I just also think our children deserve the best quality care when they are infants and toddlers and i also think many women today refuse to see that. I think women and I guess men too prioritize having a bigger house, a better car, vacations, etc.. as well as prioritizing their careers, over what is best for their kids at that young age. I believe infants and toddlers deserve to be cared for primarily by someone who loves and adores them more than anything else in the world and wants the absolute best for them. I get that many parents these days have decided that nannies and daycare workers can do that just as well as parents. I disagree. So there's my opinion, feel free to skewer me for it as many will do. I can handle it.

OK, then the next time you go to the doctors office, ask the receptionist if she has children. If she says yes, offer to wait until a receptionist that doesn’t comes on duty. You don’t mind a few hours in the waiting room extra, right? When you go to the dentist make sure not to benefit from a mother whose child is being denied the best quality care— because obviously that would be hugely hypocritical, right? Make sure you only schedule appointments with male dental hygienists and practitioners.

It sounds like you’re aged past this but the United States has a serious, serious shortage of OB/GYNs. Make sure you’re not taking up the time of any of them with young children please— I’m sure a few extra months waiting for routine screening is not going to kill you. On the other hand mammography is almost entirely carried out by women so if you want mothers out of that field…we’ll that just might kill you!

Personally I’m profoundly grateful for whatever childcare arrangement the ER doctor had when we rushed my father in on Christmas a few years ago. Because we still have my father. I know several of his ICU nurses had young children because we talked about them. My family is blessed by them, again, because we still have my father. I don’t know where you think a bunch of childless, fully trained ICU nurses is going to magically appear from to provide this “no working mothers of young children!” Fantasy of yours, but while you’re so upset by it, you should take the first step and see how your own life would be different without them.

It is not true that these professions and professional worker's positions would not be filled if parents planned for and found a way to provide their own childcare when their children are very young. It is simply no longer a priority for many young parents and I think that's a mistake. I have a lot of sympathy for those who literally cannot survive without two incomes and I think they are the people who deserve the best in paid childcare, but that typically is not the case. People with means are the ones who get the best paid childcare for their children. As a result many of the workers you describe as well as service workers are left with whatever daycare they can afford. Doctors and lawyers are paying high wages for nannies and elite daycare, but what about the rest? Do you seriously think those childcare situations are the best for those children?

Part of the problem is that young parents don't value their own ability to provide the best start for their kids and are being led to believe that daycare providers can do a better job. Therefore they often don't plan accordingly so that they would at least have the opportunity to stay home for a few years, whether it's one parent or shared by both. I know young parents, especially mothers, who are stunned by how much they want to stay home with their babies but did not consider that possibility when planning their families and future lives and careers.

Yes, I’m afraid it is. There are nearly 20 million children under four in the United States. Even if you assumed every single of of them is part of a family with two children under four (which isn’t true but let’s make the math easy) there are 10 million mothers of very young children in the United States. About 70% work outside the home. Where are you finding 7 million workers to fill these jobs lady?

[Anonymous]

Also I’m the poster above.

If you really, really care about children spending more time with their parents, the answer isn’t having one of them (and you only mean the mother) give up work. The answer is to give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children.

Being *extremely good* and in high demand at my job means I wrote my own terms for my return to work. I took six months maternity leave. I started work in the morning when my baby went down for her morning nap, which she did in my office. After that I took her to daycare, where she stayed for about 4 hours until her afternoon nap ended, then I picked her up for the day. All meetings took place in the four hours I was in the office while she was in daycare. My daycare is, as I have pointed out, excellent. And my baby spent more of her waking hours with me than a home else.

So, empower women, stop dragging them down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also I’m the poster above.

If you really, really care about children spending more time with their parents, the answer isn’t having one of them (and you only mean the mother) give up work. The answer is to give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children.

Being *extremely good* and in high demand at my job means I wrote my own terms for my return to work. I took six months maternity leave. I started work in the morning when my baby went down for her morning nap, which she did in my office. After that I took her to daycare, where she stayed for about 4 hours until her afternoon nap ended, then I picked her up for the day. All meetings took place in the four hours I was in the office while she was in daycare. My daycare is, as I have pointed out, excellent. And my baby spent more of her waking hours with me than a home else.

So, empower women, stop dragging them down.

Your situation sounds optimal in many ways. I salute you. If the answer is to "give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children" then that push has to come from them, not from me. If mothers, and fathers too, don't demand it, it won't ever happen. And if parents are persuaded that their children are just as well off in daycare as they are with a parent then why would they demand otherwise?

I am doing literally nothing to drag women down. Just because some on DCUM disagree with my opinions about daycare does not mean I'm doing anything to drag women down, in fact in my non-DCUM life it is quite the contrary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also I’m the poster above.

If you really, really care about children spending more time with their parents, the answer isn’t having one of them (and you only mean the mother) give up work. The answer is to give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children.

Being *extremely good* and in high demand at my job means I wrote my own terms for my return to work. I took six months maternity leave. I started work in the morning when my baby went down for her morning nap, which she did in my office. After that I took her to daycare, where she stayed for about 4 hours until her afternoon nap ended, then I picked her up for the day. All meetings took place in the four hours I was in the office while she was in daycare. My daycare is, as I have pointed out, excellent. And my baby spent more of her waking hours with me than a home else.

So, empower women, stop dragging them down.

Your situation sounds optimal in many ways. I salute you. If the answer is to "give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children" then that push has to come from them, not from me. If mothers, and fathers too, don't demand it, it won't ever happen. And if parents are persuaded that their children are just as well off in daycare as they are with a parent then why would they demand otherwise?

I am doing literally nothing to drag women down. Just because some on DCUM disagree with my opinions about daycare does not mean I'm doing anything to drag women down, in fact in my non-DCUM life it is quite the contrary.

You are repeatedly denying (or ignoring) the critical, society-sustaining role that working mothers play in this country. You refuse to acknowledge and appreciate the role they play in your daily life and the life of your loved ones.

Please don’t make me go back and quote you calling childcare workers “any idiot” and your various other denigrating comments about women in this thread. Take the excellent example of another women on the thread worried about socioeconomic issues who overstepped, apologize, and do better going forward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reflecting on the mommy wars:

- Most women don’t have a choice. They work because they need the money, or they stay home because daycare is too expensive/complicated. It’s not a real choice.

- SAHM who bash WOHM still rely on WOHMs in a major way.

- WOHM who bash SAHM think it’s fine to be a childcare professional as long as you get a W2. It’s low status to watch your own children yet it’s fine to watch their children.

- It’s nearly impossible to find a part time professional job that pays enough to be profitable after childcare. A lot of judgment might end if more part time work and part time children was available. Not everyone can work from home.

A good summary. And regarding your last point, I actually found an amazing part-time job that pays enough for me to afford childcare -- I work for a woman-owned company that genuinely supports women and all parents. But it's hard to find part-time care! Daycares are very in demand where I live and they have no incentive to offer part-time seats because it's so much easier to just fill all their spots with full-time families. And most nannies prefer FT gigs for obvious reasons. I was super fortunate to find my job but until my DC was in school, childcare was a constant source of stress as we went through a series of nanny shares and part-time sitters/nannies -- things would be stable for about 6 months at a time and then the sitter would graduate from school, or the other family in the share would decide they wanted a full-time partner.

I share this because it illustrates how hard the balance is. Everyone is just trying to make the financial side work while also doing what is right for their kids, and for them. And that includes childcare workers, many of whom have kids or other family obligations. And it's extra hard in the US where there is so little cultural respect or appreciation for the work of raising children. That hurts working moms, SAHMs, and childcare workers. It also hurts men! Who often feel they have no choices at all. The more we value childcare for it's inherent value and the social contribution it makes, the better it is for all involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also I’m the poster above.

If you really, really care about children spending more time with their parents, the answer isn’t having one of them (and you only mean the mother) give up work. The answer is to give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children.

Being *extremely good* and in high demand at my job means I wrote my own terms for my return to work. I took six months maternity leave. I started work in the morning when my baby went down for her morning nap, which she did in my office. After that I took her to daycare, where she stayed for about 4 hours until her afternoon nap ended, then I picked her up for the day. All meetings took place in the four hours I was in the office while she was in daycare. My daycare is, as I have pointed out, excellent. And my baby spent more of her waking hours with me than a home else.

So, empower women, stop dragging them down.

Your situation sounds optimal in many ways. I salute you. If the answer is to "give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children" then that push has to come from them, not from me. If mothers, and fathers too, don't demand it, it won't ever happen. And if parents are persuaded that their children are just as well off in daycare as they are with a parent then why would they demand otherwise?

I am doing literally nothing to drag women down. Just because some on DCUM disagree with my opinions about daycare does not mean I'm doing anything to drag women down, in fact in my non-DCUM life it is quite the contrary.

You are repeatedly denying (or ignoring) the critical, society-sustaining role that working mothers play in this country. You refuse to acknowledge and appreciate the role they play in your daily life and the life of your loved ones.

Please don’t make me go back and quote you calling childcare workers “any idiot” and your various other denigrating comments about women in this thread. Take the excellent example of another women on the thread worried about socioeconomic issues who overstepped, apologize, and do better going forward.

I haven't denied or ignored the role working mothers play, I just refuse to ignore the critical role parents play in the development of their infants and toddlers as others seem to be doing. I took care of my own two children until they were in school full time while deliberately living on a shoestring with my husband's full agreement. Then I proceed with my career for many years. I don't just say it, I lived it.

I don't regret anything I've said, feel free to quote me all day long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also I’m the poster above.

If you really, really care about children spending more time with their parents, the answer isn’t having one of them (and you only mean the mother) give up work. The answer is to give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children.

Being *extremely good* and in high demand at my job means I wrote my own terms for my return to work. I took six months maternity leave. I started work in the morning when my baby went down for her morning nap, which she did in my office. After that I took her to daycare, where she stayed for about 4 hours until her afternoon nap ended, then I picked her up for the day. All meetings took place in the four hours I was in the office while she was in daycare. My daycare is, as I have pointed out, excellent. And my baby spent more of her waking hours with me than a home else.

So, empower women, stop dragging them down.

Your situation sounds optimal in many ways. I salute you. If the answer is to "give more mothers the education, training, and social capital to insist on jobs where we are able to spend more time with our children" then that push has to come from them, not from me. If mothers, and fathers too, don't demand it, it won't ever happen. And if parents are persuaded that their children are just as well off in daycare as they are with a parent then why would they demand otherwise?

I am doing literally nothing to drag women down. Just because some on DCUM disagree with my opinions about daycare does not mean I'm doing anything to drag women down, in fact in my non-DCUM life it is quite the contrary.

You are repeatedly denying (or ignoring) the critical, society-sustaining role that working mothers play in this country. You refuse to acknowledge and appreciate the role they play in your daily life and the life of your loved ones.

Please don’t make me go back and quote you calling childcare workers “any idiot” and your various other denigrating comments about women in this thread. Take the excellent example of another women on the thread worried about socioeconomic issues who overstepped, apologize, and do better going forward.

I haven't denied or ignored the role working mothers play, I just refuse to ignore the critical role parents play in the development of their infants and toddlers as others seem to be doing. I took care of my own two children until they were in school full time while deliberately living on a shoestring with my husband's full agreement. Then I proceed with my career for many years. I don't just say it, I lived it.

I don't regret anything I've said, feel free to quote me all day long.

Then please tell us about how you “lived it” without working mothers? That school you sent your kids to full time— their teachers were never mothers? Statistically improbable. You benefitted from their labor for all the years of your children’s education and then come and complain about the choices they make online? Disgusting.

You called women who work in daycare centers “Undedicated” while they risked their lives to care for the children of ER doctors during COVID.

You called women who care for the children of others
“some idiots”

You said women would rather have “cars and fancy vacations” than be with their children.

Tell us all again how you have “literally” never torn down women?

[Anonymous]

Tl;DR but I'm sure it went like this:

1. SAHMs telling WOHMs that they don't care about their kids
2. WOHMs telling SAHMs that they are lazy
3. A handful of people who have done it both and they, of course, all agree SAH is better
4. WOHMs calling SAHMs gold diggers

What did I miss?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find sitting around while kids nap painfully boring.

They sleep 10 hours a night and 4 hours a day.

If I work 8 hours I only miss 4 hours of their life. I think it’s weird to want to be with your kids every.single.minute.

I think even SAHM’s agree that is why they are so into independent play. So they aren’t even with their kids every.single.minute.

I don’t clean.

I love to cook though.

I don’t want to be sick of my kids. I treasure all my time with them. I’m the crazy mom that will do the “carpool” but not ask you to drive. I love getting home from work and doing play dates. I love the zoo at 5pm-8pm.

My H feels the same way.

You wouldn't be "bored" for the four hours a day they were sleeping if you stayed home with them. You'd be grateful for the four hours of rest, peace and quiet. You have no idea what you're talking about.

+1. I cook, plan our social calendar and the kids’ activities, order stuff for the house etc. when they sleep/go to school. I occasionally work out. I am never bored! I think it takes a boring person to be bored, but to each their own.

[Anonymous]

I am a new poster and have to agree that many nannies and daycare workers are indeed undereducated and under-invested in your child’s well being. Not all, maybe not even most, but plenty. I say this as a newly SAHM who observes on a daily basis what transpires at the park/playground/grocery store. Fortunately, young children are resilient and as long as there is some love and care, they will be fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a new poster and have to agree that many nannies and daycare workers are indeed undereducated and under-invested in your child’s well being. Not all, maybe not even most, but plenty. I say this as a newly SAHM who observes on a daily basis what transpires at the park/playground/grocery store. Fortunately, young children are resilient and as long as there is some love and care, they will be fine.

I have observed many PARENTS who are lousy parents. A kid being with their own parents is no guarantee either.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I find sitting around while kids nap painfully boring.

They sleep 10 hours a night and 4 hours a day.

If I work 8 hours I only miss 4 hours of their life. I think it’s weird to want to be with your kids every.single.minute.

I think even SAHM’s agree that is why they are so into independent play. So they aren’t even with their kids every.single.minute.

I don’t clean.

I love to cook though.

I don’t want to be sick of my kids. I treasure all my time with them. I’m the crazy mom that will do the “carpool” but not ask you to drive. I love getting home from work and doing play dates. I love the zoo at 5pm-8pm.

My H feels the same way.

You wouldn't be "bored" for the four hours a day they were sleeping if you stayed home with them. You'd be grateful for the four hours of rest, peace and quiet. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Well, some people like to be intellectually stimulated. And sitting at home while a kid naps isn't great for that. Maybe you have no idea what you're talking about.

Meh, I like to be mentally stimulated as well - but as someone who has been both a full time sahm and someone who currently works full time with high schoolers - the amount of stress of working far exceeds the amount of mental stimulation occurring. I actually get far more mental stimulation helping my kids with their homework than I do with a full day of my job or when I had more Time for reading when my kids napped. I actually read A TON when my kids were young and I wasn't working. I reread and read all the classics and loved every second of it. Less time to do that now.

People walking around complaining that being a mom to young children isn't "mentally stimulating" enough for them are missing the point. Your job is to use YOUR brain to stimulate THEIR brains. Not just to walk around pompously talking about how boring you find nap time.

I agree with you, but apparently many parents feel that their children are better off spending that time with underpaid, undereducated, under dedicated and often constantly changing daycare workers. Not to say that some daycare workers and situations aren't okay but I much preferred to be my children's primary influence when they were birth to about age 4 with some half day preschool thrown in. I didn't find it boring at all, I had plenty to do to stimulate my mind and theirs and to keep life interesting. Then when they were in school full time I pursued my career. It worked out great, my kids are grown now and they are my evidence that I did the right thing for my family. Certainly not for everyone obviously but kind or ridiculous to assume all SAHMs are going to be bored while the baby takes a nap.

It baffles me that you think the kind of woman with a career worth going back to, who is successful in her field, doesn’t vet her childcare providers. The only point I agree with is that they’re underpaid and that’s why I make it my business to give extremely generous gifts. Undereducated? My daughter’s infant teacher didn’t have a college degree, you’re right. She did have grandchildren, humor, kindness and endless patience. Underdedicated? Not if you’re in a place that values their staff and treats them well. Same about “constantly changing”.

Honestly your views on the people, primarily women, who work in childcare say quite a lot about you. If you want to be hostile to my choice to return to work— or insecure about your choice to stay home— that’s cool. But bashing women who work in childcare in this high cost of living area is a pretty ugly look.

Your anecdotal evidence based on your own childcare providers doesn't actually prove much. I have worked at a daycare center, provided home daycare and know a number of daycare workers. I'm not bashing women who work in childcare centers, I'm talking about who is actually the typical daycare provider (not all) and they are underpaid, they are under educated and staff changes often which indicates under dedicated. I'm not making this up. You can deny it, or you can say your nanny makes great money and has a advanced degree but that doesn't change the demographics of typical daycare providers in this country.

I'm pretty sick of some working moms who act like any idiot can properly care for infants and toddlers. I disagree. For my own kids I felt it was important to provide their early childcare myself. My husband wanted to do it too but he made more money than me so he reluctantly agreed to work but he definitely wanted to stay home with our kids when they were little. I had no problem establishing a career once they were in school.

I think society is paying a price for so many kids being raised by subpar daycare workers. Not ALL kids, but definitely a significant number. You can take that as hostility toward you if you want but I have zero insecurity about my decision to stay home with my kids before they started school. They are adults and they are all the proof I need that I did the right thing.

The trouble with trying to backtrack on Internet forums is that the quote function is right there. So, let’s review how you chose to “not bash” women in childcare centers, shall we?

“many parents feel that their children are better off spending that time with underpaid, undereducated, under dedicated and often constantly changing daycare workers.”

Everyone agrees with you that childcare workers in the United States are underpaid. Where I found your comments to be absolutely disgusting was in calling them “underdedicated”. Particularly in the pandemic, childcare workers who were caring for the children of doctors and nurses were risking their lives and staying on the job when, in many cases, unemployment benefits would have been giving them more money then their salaries. That is remarkably dedicated and did they get a word of praise from media, as doctors, nurses and grocery store clerks did? I sure didn’t hear it.

Now if we want to take your personal anecdata I absolutely believe you that you worked in daycare centers providing subpar care, and provided home daycare that was subpar. Your sample size of one bad daycare provider is accepted. I will also believe you that you were underpaid, undereducated and underdedicated, as you would be the most relevant expert on that fact.

I also have to quibble with your idea that “many mothers” believe that “any idiot” can take care of an infant. Do fathers all undergo brainwashing on the day that childcare is chosen? Does my MBA-wielding husband somehow lose his ability to do analyses that day? Remarkable.

I feel like you are being severely judgmental toward me, I can only assume it comes from a place of insecurity about your own decisions. I'm sure you see at least a kernel of truth in what I said but feel compelled to argue with it anyway and attack me personally, as others also have, even though none of you have one iota of knowledge about me, my background, my actual experiences or my relationship with my own children (which another PP was quite sure she could characterize accurately) which makes perfect sense to me because I'm quite sure many working parents have many misgivings about who is caring for their children when they are infants and toddlers. I notice nobody has argued at all with the concept that our society is paying a heavy price for all the children who are being cared for in subpar daycare situations during their critical first years. Hard to argue with that. Especially since there is evidence everywhere.

The reason I’m not engaging with your “society is going to pay a heavy price!” malarkey is because, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, society is literally held together by mothers who work. They’re your grandchild’s heart surgeon, if god forbid they need it. They’re our nurses. They’re our teachers. They’re our lawyers and our diplomats and our scientists. When you show up at your doctors office in pain, do you want someone to care for you or not? Do you want someone to answer 911 when you call, or not?

You are not some kind of a victim just because people are telling you that you’re wrong.

I don't see myself as any kind of victim, however apparently on DCUM the worst insult or comment you can make is that someone makes you or others feel judged. So I thought I'd try it too since others are trying to attack me by saying I am extremely judgmental. Just pointing out, all of you are as well.

Also, I have no problem whatsoever with women in every possible job or career. I just also think our children deserve the best quality care when they are infants and toddlers and i also think many women today refuse to see that. I think women and I guess men too prioritize having a bigger house, a better car, vacations, etc.. as well as prioritizing their careers, over what is best for their kids at that young age. I believe infants and toddlers deserve to be cared for primarily by someone who loves and adores them more than anything else in the world and wants the absolute best for them. I get that many parents these days have decided that nannies and daycare workers can do that just as well as parents. I disagree. So there's my opinion, feel free to skewer me for it as many will do. I can handle it.

You are delusional. The number of parents putting their kids in daycare to prioritize vacations etc is VANISHINGLY small, because the number of parents that have the luxury of that kind of decision is vanishingly small. This kind of demented thinking and justification for weirdly judgmental and insufferably smug anti-daycare posts makes you sound like some kind of religious nut job who really wants to put other women in their place. Why? Honestly ask yourself why you want to come on here to spread guilt and misinformation to moms on an anonymous website. You sure aren’t doing it for the children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find sitting around while kids nap painfully boring.

They sleep 10 hours a night and 4 hours a day.

If I work 8 hours I only miss 4 hours of their life. I think it’s weird to want to be with your kids every.single.minute.

I think even SAHM’s agree that is why they are so into independent play. So they aren’t even with their kids every.single.minute.

I don’t clean.

I love to cook though.

I don’t want to be sick of my kids. I treasure all my time with them. I’m the crazy mom that will do the “carpool” but not ask you to drive. I love getting home from work and doing play dates. I love the zoo at 5pm-8pm.

My H feels the same way.

You wouldn't be "bored" for the four hours a day they were sleeping if you stayed home with them. You'd be grateful for the four hours of rest, peace and quiet. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Well, some people like to be intellectually stimulated. And sitting at home while a kid naps isn't great for that. Maybe you have no idea what you're talking about.

Meh, I like to be mentally stimulated as well - but as someone who has been both a full time sahm and someone who currently works full time with high schoolers - the amount of stress of working far exceeds the amount of mental stimulation occurring. I actually get far more mental stimulation helping my kids with their homework than I do with a full day of my job or when I had more Time for reading when my kids napped. I actually read A TON when my kids were young and I wasn't working. I reread and read all the classics and loved every second of it. Less time to do that now.

People walking around complaining that being a mom to young children isn't "mentally stimulating" enough for them are missing the point. Your job is to use YOUR brain to stimulate THEIR brains. Not just to walk around pompously talking about how boring you find nap time.

I agree with you, but apparently many parents feel that their children are better off spending that time with underpaid, undereducated, under dedicated and often constantly changing daycare workers. Not to say that some daycare workers and situations aren't okay but I much preferred to be my children's primary influence when they were birth to about age 4 with some half day preschool thrown in. I didn't find it boring at all, I had plenty to do to stimulate my mind and theirs and to keep life interesting. Then when they were in school full time I pursued my career. It worked out great, my kids are grown now and they are my evidence that I did the right thing for my family. Certainly not for everyone obviously but kind or ridiculous to assume all SAHMs are going to be bored while the baby takes a nap.

It baffles me that you think the kind of woman with a career worth going back to, who is successful in her field, doesn’t vet her childcare providers. The only point I agree with is that they’re underpaid and that’s why I make it my business to give extremely generous gifts. Undereducated? My daughter’s infant teacher didn’t have a college degree, you’re right. She did have grandchildren, humor, kindness and endless patience. Underdedicated? Not if you’re in a place that values their staff and treats them well. Same about “constantly changing”.

Honestly your views on the people, primarily women, who work in childcare say quite a lot about you. If you want to be hostile to my choice to return to work— or insecure about your choice to stay home— that’s cool. But bashing women who work in childcare in this high cost of living area is a pretty ugly look.

Your anecdotal evidence based on your own childcare providers doesn't actually prove much. I have worked at a daycare center, provided home daycare and know a number of daycare workers. I'm not bashing women who work in childcare centers, I'm talking about who is actually the typical daycare provider (not all) and they are underpaid, they are under educated and staff changes often which indicates under dedicated. I'm not making this up. You can deny it, or you can say your nanny makes great money and has a advanced degree but that doesn't change the demographics of typical daycare providers in this country.

I'm pretty sick of some working moms who act like any idiot can properly care for infants and toddlers. I disagree. For my own kids I felt it was important to provide their early childcare myself. My husband wanted to do it too but he made more money than me so he reluctantly agreed to work but he definitely wanted to stay home with our kids when they were little. I had no problem establishing a career once they were in school.

I think society is paying a price for so many kids being raised by subpar daycare workers. Not ALL kids, but definitely a significant number. You can take that as hostility toward you if you want but I have zero insecurity about my decision to stay home with my kids before they started school. They are adults and they are all the proof I need that I did the right thing.

The trouble with trying to backtrack on Internet forums is that the quote function is right there. So, let’s review how you chose to “not bash” women in childcare centers, shall we?

“many parents feel that their children are better off spending that time with underpaid, undereducated, under dedicated and often constantly changing daycare workers.”

Everyone agrees with you that childcare workers in the United States are underpaid. Where I found your comments to be absolutely disgusting was in calling them “underdedicated”. Particularly in the pandemic, childcare workers who were caring for the children of doctors and nurses were risking their lives and staying on the job when, in many cases, unemployment benefits would have been giving them more money then their salaries. That is remarkably dedicated and did they get a word of praise from media, as doctors, nurses and grocery store clerks did? I sure didn’t hear it.

Now if we want to take your personal anecdata I absolutely believe you that you worked in daycare centers providing subpar care, and provided home daycare that was subpar. Your sample size of one bad daycare provider is accepted. I will also believe you that you were underpaid, undereducated and underdedicated, as you would be the most relevant expert on that fact.

I also have to quibble with your idea that “many mothers” believe that “any idiot” can take care of an infant. Do fathers all undergo brainwashing on the day that childcare is chosen? Does my MBA-wielding husband somehow lose his ability to do analyses that day? Remarkable.

I feel like you are being severely judgmental toward me, I can only assume it comes from a place of insecurity about your own decisions. I'm sure you see at least a kernel of truth in what I said but feel compelled to argue with it anyway and attack me personally, as others also have, even though none of you have one iota of knowledge about me, my background, my actual experiences or my relationship with my own children (which another PP was quite sure she could characterize accurately) which makes perfect sense to me because I'm quite sure many working parents have many misgivings about who is caring for their children when they are infants and toddlers. I notice nobody has argued at all with the concept that our society is paying a heavy price for all the children who are being cared for in subpar daycare situations during their critical first years. Hard to argue with that. Especially since there is evidence everywhere.

The reason I’m not engaging with your “society is going to pay a heavy price!” malarkey is because, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, society is literally held together by mothers who work. They’re your grandchild’s heart surgeon, if god forbid they need it. They’re our nurses. They’re our teachers. They’re our lawyers and our diplomats and our scientists. When you show up at your doctors office in pain, do you want someone to care for you or not? Do you want someone to answer 911 when you call, or not?

You are not some kind of a victim just because people are telling you that you’re wrong.

I don't see myself as any kind of victim, however apparently on DCUM the worst insult or comment you can make is that someone makes you or others feel judged. So I thought I'd try it too since others are trying to attack me by saying I am extremely judgmental. Just pointing out, all of you are as well.

Also, I have no problem whatsoever with women in every possible job or career. I just also think our children deserve the best quality care when they are infants and toddlers and i also think many women today refuse to see that. I think women and I guess men too prioritize having a bigger house, a better car, vacations, etc.. as well as prioritizing their careers, over what is best for their kids at that young age. I believe infants and toddlers deserve to be cared for primarily by someone who loves and adores them more than anything else in the world and wants the absolute best for them. I get that many parents these days have decided that nannies and daycare workers can do that just as well as parents. I disagree. So there's my opinion, feel free to skewer me for it as many will do. I can handle it.

OK, then the next time you go to the doctors office, ask the receptionist if she has children. If she says yes, offer to wait until a receptionist that doesn’t comes on duty. You don’t mind a few hours in the waiting room extra, right? When you go to the dentist make sure not to benefit from a mother whose child is being denied the best quality care— because obviously that would be hugely hypocritical, right? Make sure you only schedule appointments with male dental hygienists and practitioners.

It sounds like you’re aged past this but the United States has a serious, serious shortage of OB/GYNs. Make sure you’re not taking up the time of any of them with young children please— I’m sure a few extra months waiting for routine screening is not going to kill you. On the other hand mammography is almost entirely carried out by women so if you want mothers out of that field…we’ll that just might kill you!

Personally I’m profoundly grateful for whatever childcare arrangement the ER doctor had when we rushed my father in on Christmas a few years ago. Because we still have my father. I know several of his ICU nurses had young children because we talked about them. My family is blessed by them, again, because we still have my father. I don’t know where you think a bunch of childless, fully trained ICU nurses is going to magically appear from to provide this “no working mothers of young children!” Fantasy of yours, but while you’re so upset by it, you should take the first step and see how your own life would be different without them.

It is not true that these professions and professional worker's positions would not be filled if parents planned for and found a way to provide their own childcare when their children are very young. It is simply no longer a priority for many young parents and I think that's a mistake. I have a lot of sympathy for those who literally cannot survive without two incomes and I think they are the people who deserve the best in paid childcare, but that typically is not the case. People with means are the ones who get the best paid childcare for their children. As a result many of the workers you describe as well as service workers are left with whatever daycare they can afford. Doctors and lawyers are paying high wages for nannies and elite daycare, but what about the rest? Do you seriously think those childcare situations are the best for those children?

Part of the problem is that young parents don't value their own ability to provide the best start for their kids and are being led to believe that daycare providers can do a better job. Therefore they often don't plan accordingly so that they would at least have the opportunity to stay home for a few years, whether it's one parent or shared by both. I know young parents, especially mothers, who are stunned by how much they want to stay home with their babies but did not consider that possibility when planning their families and future lives and careers.

Man, I hope when my kids are grown that I’m not spending my days creepily haunting the message boards of new mothers like this PP does.

I suspect the point about how shallow her own relationship with her adult children is was spot-on, which is why she spends her days hating new mothers the way she does. She’s resentful of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a new poster and have to agree that many nannies and daycare workers are indeed undereducated and under-invested in your child’s well being. Not all, maybe not even most, but plenty. I say this as a newly SAHM who observes on a daily basis what transpires at the park/playground/grocery store. Fortunately, young children are resilient and as long as there is some love and care, they will be fine.

I’m a former SAHM and let me tell you, the worst behavior I ever saw in those same parks/playgrounds/etc. was always from a parent. I never saw a nanny hit a child. I never saw a childcare worker twist a child’s ear. I never saw a childcare worker get down in front of a child and scream at them. And worse, frankly.

You just aren’t looking at the abusive parents because you are focused on seeing what justifies your own decision. But open your eyes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I find sitting around while kids nap painfully boring.

They sleep 10 hours a night and 4 hours a day.

If I work 8 hours I only miss 4 hours of their life. I think it’s weird to want to be with your kids every.single.minute.

I think even SAHM’s agree that is why they are so into independent play. So they aren’t even with their kids every.single.minute.

I don’t clean.

I love to cook though.

I don’t want to be sick of my kids. I treasure all my time with them. I’m the crazy mom that will do the “carpool” but not ask you to drive. I love getting home from work and doing play dates. I love the zoo at 5pm-8pm.

My H feels the same way.

You wouldn't be "bored" for the four hours a day they were sleeping if you stayed home with them. You'd be grateful for the four hours of rest, peace and quiet. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Well, some people like to be intellectually stimulated. And sitting at home while a kid naps isn't great for that. Maybe you have no idea what you're talking about.

Meh, I like to be mentally stimulated as well - but as someone who has been both a full time sahm and someone who currently works full time with high schoolers - the amount of stress of working far exceeds the amount of mental stimulation occurring. I actually get far more mental stimulation helping my kids with their homework than I do with a full day of my job or when I had more Time for reading when my kids napped. I actually read A TON when my kids were young and I wasn't working. I reread and read all the classics and loved every second of it. Less time to do that now.

People walking around complaining that being a mom to young children isn't "mentally stimulating" enough for them are missing the point. Your job is to use YOUR brain to stimulate THEIR brains. Not just to walk around pompously talking about how boring you find nap time.

I agree with you, but apparently many parents feel that their children are better off spending that time with underpaid, undereducated, under dedicated and often constantly changing daycare workers. Not to say that some daycare workers and situations aren't okay but I much preferred to be my children's primary influence when they were birth to about age 4 with some half day preschool thrown in. I didn't find it boring at all, I had plenty to do to stimulate my mind and theirs and to keep life interesting. Then when they were in school full time I pursued my career. It worked out great, my kids are grown now and they are my evidence that I did the right thing for my family. Certainly not for everyone obviously but kind or ridiculous to assume all SAHMs are going to be bored while the baby takes a nap.

It baffles me that you think the kind of woman with a career worth going back to, who is successful in her field, doesn’t vet her childcare providers. The only point I agree with is that they’re underpaid and that’s why I make it my business to give extremely generous gifts. Undereducated? My daughter’s infant teacher didn’t have a college degree, you’re right. She did have grandchildren, humor, kindness and endless patience. Underdedicated? Not if you’re in a place that values their staff and treats them well. Same about “constantly changing”.

Honestly your views on the people, primarily women, who work in childcare say quite a lot about you. If you want to be hostile to my choice to return to work— or insecure about your choice to stay home— that’s cool. But bashing women who work in childcare in this high cost of living area is a pretty ugly look.

Your anecdotal evidence based on your own childcare providers doesn't actually prove much. I have worked at a daycare center, provided home daycare and know a number of daycare workers. I'm not bashing women who work in childcare centers, I'm talking about who is actually the typical daycare provider (not all) and they are underpaid, they are under educated and staff changes often which indicates under dedicated. I'm not making this up. You can deny it, or you can say your nanny makes great money and has a advanced degree but that doesn't change the demographics of typical daycare providers in this country.

I'm pretty sick of some working moms who act like any idiot can properly care for infants and toddlers. I disagree. For my own kids I felt it was important to provide their early childcare myself. My husband wanted to do it too but he made more money than me so he reluctantly agreed to work but he definitely wanted to stay home with our kids when they were little. I had no problem establishing a career once they were in school.

I think society is paying a price for so many kids being raised by subpar daycare workers. Not ALL kids, but definitely a significant number. You can take that as hostility toward you if you want but I have zero insecurity about my decision to stay home with my kids before they started school. They are adults and they are all the proof I need that I did the right thing.

The trouble with trying to backtrack on Internet forums is that the quote function is right there. So, let’s review how you chose to “not bash” women in childcare centers, shall we?

“many parents feel that their children are better off spending that time with underpaid, undereducated, under dedicated and often constantly changing daycare workers.”

Everyone agrees with you that childcare workers in the United States are underpaid. Where I found your comments to be absolutely disgusting was in calling them “underdedicated”. Particularly in the pandemic, childcare workers who were caring for the children of doctors and nurses were risking their lives and staying on the job when, in many cases, unemployment benefits would have been giving them more money then their salaries. That is remarkably dedicated and did they get a word of praise from media, as doctors, nurses and grocery store clerks did? I sure didn’t hear it.

Now if we want to take your personal anecdata I absolutely believe you that you worked in daycare centers providing subpar care, and provided home daycare that was subpar. Your sample size of one bad daycare provider is accepted. I will also believe you that you were underpaid, undereducated and underdedicated, as you would be the most relevant expert on that fact.

I also have to quibble with your idea that “many mothers” believe that “any idiot” can take care of an infant. Do fathers all undergo brainwashing on the day that childcare is chosen? Does my MBA-wielding husband somehow lose his ability to do analyses that day? Remarkable.

I feel like you are being severely judgmental toward me, I can only assume it comes from a place of insecurity about your own decisions. I'm sure you see at least a kernel of truth in what I said but feel compelled to argue with it anyway and attack me personally, as others also have, even though none of you have one iota of knowledge about me, my background, my actual experiences or my relationship with my own children (which another PP was quite sure she could characterize accurately) which makes perfect sense to me because I'm quite sure many working parents have many misgivings about who is caring for their children when they are infants and toddlers. I notice nobody has argued at all with the concept that our society is paying a heavy price for all the children who are being cared for in subpar daycare situations during their critical first years. Hard to argue with that. Especially since there is evidence everywhere.

The reason I’m not engaging with your “society is going to pay a heavy price!” malarkey is because, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, society is literally held together by mothers who work. They’re your grandchild’s heart surgeon, if god forbid they need it. They’re our nurses. They’re our teachers. They’re our lawyers and our diplomats and our scientists. When you show up at your doctors office in pain, do you want someone to care for you or not? Do you want someone to answer 911 when you call, or not?

You are not some kind of a victim just because people are telling you that you’re wrong.

I don't see myself as any kind of victim, however apparently on DCUM the worst insult or comment you can make is that someone makes you or others feel judged. So I thought I'd try it too since others are trying to attack me by saying I am extremely judgmental. Just pointing out, all of you are as well.

Also, I have no problem whatsoever with women in every possible job or career. I just also think our children deserve the best quality care when they are infants and toddlers and i also think many women today refuse to see that. I think women and I guess men too prioritize having a bigger house, a better car, vacations, etc.. as well as prioritizing their careers, over what is best for their kids at that young age. I believe infants and toddlers deserve to be cared for primarily by someone who loves and adores them more than anything else in the world and wants the absolute best for them. I get that many parents these days have decided that nannies and daycare workers can do that just as well as parents. I disagree. So there's my opinion, feel free to skewer me for it as many will do. I can handle it.

OK, then the next time you go to the doctors office, ask the receptionist if she has children. If she says yes, offer to wait until a receptionist that doesn’t comes on duty. You don’t mind a few hours in the waiting room extra, right? When you go to the dentist make sure not to benefit from a mother whose child is being denied the best quality care— because obviously that would be hugely hypocritical, right? Make sure you only schedule appointments with male dental hygienists and practitioners.

It sounds like you’re aged past this but the United States has a serious, serious shortage of OB/GYNs. Make sure you’re not taking up the time of any of them with young children please— I’m sure a few extra months waiting for routine screening is not going to kill you. On the other hand mammography is almost entirely carried out by women so if you want mothers out of that field…we’ll that just might kill you!

Personally I’m profoundly grateful for whatever childcare arrangement the ER doctor had when we rushed my father in on Christmas a few years ago. Because we still have my father. I know several of his ICU nurses had young children because we talked about them. My family is blessed by them, again, because we still have my father. I don’t know where you think a bunch of childless, fully trained ICU nurses is going to magically appear from to provide this “no working mothers of young children!” Fantasy of yours, but while you’re so upset by it, you should take the first step and see how your own life would be different without them.

It is not true that these professions and professional worker's positions would not be filled if parents planned for and found a way to provide their own childcare when their children are very young. It is simply no longer a priority for many young parents and I think that's a mistake. I have a lot of sympathy for those who literally cannot survive without two incomes and I think they are the people who deserve the best in paid childcare, but that typically is not the case. People with means are the ones who get the best paid childcare for their children. As a result many of the workers you describe as well as service workers are left with whatever daycare they can afford. Doctors and lawyers are paying high wages for nannies and elite daycare, but what about the rest? Do you seriously think those childcare situations are the best for those children?

Part of the problem is that young parents don't value their own ability to provide the best start for their kids and are being led to believe that daycare providers can do a better job. Therefore they often don't plan accordingly so that they would at least have the opportunity to stay home for a few years, whether it's one parent or shared by both. I know young parents, especially mothers, who are stunned by how much they want to stay home with their babies but did not consider that possibility when planning their families and future lives and careers.

Man, I hope when my kids are grown that I’m not spending my days creepily haunting the message boards of new mothers like this PP does.

I suspect the point about how shallow her own relationship with her adult children is was spot-on, which is why she spends her days hating new mothers the way she does. She’s resentful of them.

Agreed. Something deeply weird about this one.