Superintendent's Recommendation for Richard Montgomery ES #5 Boundaries

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:


Again you are right .... it does list additional growth. 83 students if you don't count tower oaks. 139 if you do.

B5N = 16
B3 = 26 or 82 if you pull Tower Oaks Back Out
16 = College Gardens
25 = RP5





Without going into any details, let's do one sanity check

B5N itself has 400 + 275 + 240 + 52 = 967 housing units coming under approved and proposed section.

That's a huge number to be honest. Projecting so less elementary kids with around 1000 housing units is insane. Well, MCPS openly admitted that their projections don't work in certain areas because they don't use localized formula. MCPS is working on to use a better method and they said it openly.

We all saw assumption that condos don't add kids were wrong in the last 4-5 years. 967 housing units means that you will add 100s of kids.

No other zone is adding 900+ housing units so quickly and yet no one seems to be worried about it.




The options that leave Beall at 83% is good.

But this issue with MCPS not making builders front schools like other states and counties do, and the county continuing to allow these over buildings issues is the problem. But the contractors line the local politicians pockets.

The fact we had to wait THIS long just for one school (and beg for it) has been ridiculous. Add to this total BS messing up of FARMS numbers and this last minute rush, the BOE just sucks.


That will be alternative B if I recall it right. If BOE wants to balance FARMs then Alternative B can have swapping of RP5 with RP2/6. That will keep some room in all schools and also balance the FARMs. If BOE doesn't want to balance the FARMs then leave B as it is.


Basically go with alternative B without caring about FARMs

Or

Modify B to keep RP2/6 in RP and have RP5 in RM#5 [ RP5 and RP2/6 have similar numbers ]. This will balance FARMs


Many parents are paying too much attention to Tower oaks which is relatively small when you consider all the developments happening in B5. 900+ housing units in B5 shouldn't be ignored at any cost. Beall will suffer greatly if no one is paying any attention here. I am in Beall in all options and I have 2 future elementary kids going to Beall.


Tower oaks is 250+ single family and town homes which historically have more children then one and two bedroom apartments in the towncenter. The first two numbers mentioned above 400 and 275 are already included in the BOE Alternatives. While all the other zones remain flat or decrease B5 almost doubles from today to the 2023-2024 school year. The 240 housing unit is not included but was provided by the BOE, right or wrong they estimate 13 elementary school kids when it opens based on the rate of elementary school kids coming out of the other apartments in B5. Finally, the 52 building is for adult dependent children with special needs, no one under 18 will be living there. As an interesting note...B5N only has about 55 kids in it with all the apartments already there.

Parents are paying attention to the Tower Oaks of 375 new units, 255 of which are houses because they were not factored in. 675 of the 900 in towncenter you mention were included.

Additionally, parents going to the new school are paying attention because a plan that brings B5 with all that growth plus B3 with Tower Oaks and another 470 unit complex along the pike all to the new school is worrisome. Adding Tower Oaks puts the new school at 99 - 100% capacity in B-E in 2024-2025 school year. I get trying to balance current enrollment today and you can only work with the numbers we have but there has to be some thought about how to prepare smartly for growth.


Future estimate of having 13 kids, freaking 13 kids out of 240 condos, is not based on the rate of elementary school kids coming out of the other apartments in B5. MCPS already admitted that they are not using forecast based on what's happening in Rockville. They are using the same forecast for entire MCPS and that's why we have such a huge under projection and so many portables. MCPS is going to chanage it, but putting Beall at huge disadvantage is not fair based on clearly wrong projections.

Since MCPS projections are wrong and they have openly admitted it getting it wrong for condos in Rockville, those estimates of 10 kids or 13 kids are not even funny. It's painful. I see here Beall getting the short end of stick even though B5N has the most number of housing coming. There are lots of kids in those condos and many of them are not even occupied fully. In many other areas , condos may not have so many kids, but it;s not true for RM cluster zone or even in WJ zone. WJ is is in huge mess with capacity for exactly same reason and now MCPS is opening Woodward.

Trying to make a decision based on those 10 or 13 kids coming from 100s of condos will create another mess and portables in Beall will never go away. I guess many current parents don't care about it because they won't suffer. Beall zones have the most condos and if MCPS makes decision based on huge under projections for all condos then Beall will suffer the most.
Anonymous
TB and Beall zones will get a lot more condos due to all the revitalization of Rockville Pike.

WJ mess started with those condos and it's going to get worse in coming years due to more condos coming the area. Those condos have lots of kids. WJ is cluster pain will be a bit less due to Woodward coming, but elementary school's will keep their portables.
Anonymous
The latest supplement for tonight's meeting has a table with the projected # of kids from approved and proposed development, and notes that Tower Oaks was NOT included in the A-E projections due to the recency of the approval:

http://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/ATCNZX6269C4/$file/171122%20Nov.16%20CIP%20Hearing%20Follow-ups.pdf

Elementary Enrollment projections from APPROVED development
B5N - 43
B3 - 56
T1 - 13

PROPOSED development
B5N - 16
B3 - 26
CG6 - 16
RP5 - 25
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:The latest supplement for tonight's meeting has a table with the projected # of kids from approved and proposed development, and notes that Tower Oaks was NOT included in the A-E projections due to the recency of the approval:

http://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/ATCNZX6269C4/$file/171122%20Nov.16%20CIP%20Hearing%20Follow-ups.pdf

Elementary Enrollment projections from APPROVED development
B5N - 43
B3 - 56
T1 - 13

PROPOSED development
B5N - 16
B3 - 26
CG6 - 16
RP5 - 25



This information is one week old and not a new one. Problem is huge under projections of kids in condos and B5 is getting tons of it. RM cluster will be a huge mess in coming years. I guess Beall will be the biggest mess among all schools.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
PROPOSED development
B5N - 16


292 units with 16 kids?


Going by what I see it will be at least 35-40 kids. Lots of family rent 1-2 BR and have kids in this area. My son's class has 4-5 kids coming from town center.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:The latest supplement for tonight's meeting has a table with the projected # of kids from approved and proposed development, and notes that Tower Oaks was NOT included in the A-E projections due to the recency of the approval:

http://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/ATCNZX6269C4/$file/171122%20Nov.16%20CIP%20Hearing%20Follow-ups.pdf

Elementary Enrollment projections from APPROVED development
B5N - 43
B3 - 56
T1 - 13

PROPOSED development
B5N - 16
B3 - 26
CG6 - 16
RP5 - 25


Thanks for posting it here. First time I am seeing it.

All projections are for this CIP period. MCPS doesn't anticipate that Tower oaks will have 56 kids within 6 years( this CIP period). All other zone's numbers are for this CIP period. We are comparing apple to orange here to show that RM#5 will be more over crowded than others in same period if we use 56 kids for Tower oaks

Tower oaks will have a lot less kids by 2023-2024. I am just going by what MCPS is saying here.













Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:


Again you are right .... it does list additional growth. 83 students if you don't count tower oaks. 139 if you do.

B5N = 16
B3 = 26 or 82 if you pull Tower Oaks Back Out
16 = College Gardens
25 = RP5





Without going into any details, let's do one sanity check

B5N itself has 400 + 275 + 240 + 52 = 967 housing units coming under approved and proposed section.

That's a huge number to be honest. Projecting so less elementary kids with around 1000 housing units is insane. Well, MCPS openly admitted that their projections don't work in certain areas because they don't use localized formula. MCPS is working on to use a better method and they said it openly.

We all saw assumption that condos don't add kids were wrong in the last 4-5 years. 967 housing units means that you will add 100s of kids.

No other zone is adding 900+ housing units so quickly and yet no one seems to be worried about it.




The options that leave Beall at 83% is good.

But this issue with MCPS not making builders front schools like other states and counties do, and the county continuing to allow these over buildings issues is the problem. But the contractors line the local politicians pockets.

The fact we had to wait THIS long just for one school (and beg for it) has been ridiculous. Add to this total BS messing up of FARMS numbers and this last minute rush, the BOE just sucks.


That will be alternative B if I recall it right. If BOE wants to balance FARMs then Alternative B can have swapping of RP5 with RP2/6. That will keep some room in all schools and also balance the FARMs. If BOE doesn't want to balance the FARMs then leave B as it is.


Basically go with alternative B without caring about FARMs

Or

Modify B to keep RP2/6 in RP and have RP5 in RM#5 [ RP5 and RP2/6 have similar numbers ]. This will balance FARMs


Many parents are paying too much attention to Tower oaks which is relatively small when you consider all the developments happening in B5. 900+ housing units in B5 shouldn't be ignored at any cost. Beall will suffer greatly if no one is paying any attention here. I am in Beall in all options and I have 2 future elementary kids going to Beall.


Tower oaks is 250+ single family and town homes which historically have more children then one and two bedroom apartments in the towncenter. The first two numbers mentioned above 400 and 275 are already included in the BOE Alternatives. While all the other zones remain flat or decrease B5 almost doubles from today to the 2023-2024 school year. The 240 housing unit is not included but was provided by the BOE, right or wrong they estimate 13 elementary school kids when it opens based on the rate of elementary school kids coming out of the other apartments in B5. Finally, the 52 building is for adult dependent children with special needs, no one under 18 will be living there. As an interesting note...B5N only has about 55 kids in it with all the apartments already there.

Parents are paying attention to the Tower Oaks of 375 new units, 255 of which are houses because they were not factored in. 675 of the 900 in towncenter you mention were included.

Additionally, parents going to the new school are paying attention because a plan that brings B5 with all that growth plus B3 with Tower Oaks and another 470 unit complex along the pike all to the new school is worrisome. Adding Tower Oaks puts the new school at 99 - 100% capacity in B-E in 2024-2025 school year. I get trying to balance current enrollment today and you can only work with the numbers we have but there has to be some thought about how to prepare smartly for growth.


Future estimate of having 13 kids, freaking 13 kids out of 240 condos, is not based on the rate of elementary school kids coming out of the other apartments in B5. MCPS already admitted that they are not using forecast based on what's happening in Rockville. They are using the same forecast for entire MCPS and that's why we have such a huge under projection and so many portables. MCPS is going to chanage it, but putting Beall at huge disadvantage is not fair based on clearly wrong projections.

Since MCPS projections are wrong and they have openly admitted it getting it wrong for condos in Rockville, those estimates of 10 kids or 13 kids are not even funny. It's painful. I see here Beall getting the short end of stick even though B5N has the most number of housing coming. There are lots of kids in those condos and many of them are not even occupied fully. In many other areas , condos may not have so many kids, but it;s not true for RM cluster zone or even in WJ zone. WJ is is in huge mess with capacity for exactly same reason and now MCPS is opening Woodward.

Trying to make a decision based on those 10 or 13 kids coming from 100s of condos will create another mess and portables in Beall will never go away. I guess many current parents don't care about it because they won't suffer. Beall zones have the most condos and if MCPS makes decision based on huge under projections for all condos then Beall will suffer the most.



I don't disagree that there are tons of issues with the numbers but it isn't just B5 that is under projected it is the entire area.

There are currently only 55 kids living in B5N. MCPS is projecting that number to go up by another 43 for the current approved stuff and then potentially another 13 for the 200 plus proposed units. If those numbers are too low than all the projections are too low so everyone is screwed. B3 gets Tower Oaks which is 400+ units and then the Twinbrook Metro which is another 400 apartments and MCPS is only projecting 82 total kids for all of that and those include single family and town homes which do have more kids.

Also, the plan can't just be move all of B5 and B3 (1700 new approved and potential units) plus maybe RP5 (scenario E) to the new school and say that solves it. That puts all of the proposed growth except the CG townhomes in the new school. Other than B5 there is really no where else in the Beall district to grow...they tried to build 8 townhomes on West Montgomery and got shot down after years of work. We can't all scream about protecting "our" school and just push everyone south to the new school and hope it "works" out.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It is only zoned “not around RM5” because it was already a section removed from Beall awhile back and had to be labeled RP2 since it now goes to RP. If it was still in Beall it would be known as part of B2 and it would 100% be the new walkable zone of RM5.

Look at the size of B2 compared to CG1, B1, TB1? Remove the RP2 label and blend it with B2 and it still won’t be the size of CG1 or TB1. Because RP2 SHOULD be part of B2 walkable area.

So why not remove parts or cut up parts of CG1 to another school? A part of B1 or T1. It is absolutely no different.

RP2 woulda shoulda coulda be part of B2. It is not. No need to bend logic here. RP2 is currently part of RPES community and there is no school in the middle of RP2. They are not similar to B1 or T1. RP2 can continue going to RPES like nothing happened.


Sorry, I agree with the other poster. It is indeed a walkable section. It was said right from the start that RP2 and B2 were the walkable neighborhoods to the new school and off limits in the boundary changes. That is why they are both listed as 2 even though both aren't near their 1 sections. The first 4 options and then the next 2 all had RP2 going to RM5 as planned. RP2 knew this and had no complaints. None. They only starting moving RP2 back to RP when Hungerford complained about the FARMS rates that were ironically wrong for everyone and the super wanted to try a few things to balance the farms. Then instead of 12% FARMS rate that RP was supposed to have in options 1-6, the new numbers show it at 7.5% and some people like you PP began over focusing on. There are no sections to bring to RP unless it is far away to bring higher FARMS. But now moving RP2 back in is wrong. They need to walk. Bus Lincoln Park in. Bus apartment sections of Beall in that aren't walkable. But leave RP2 to walk to their new school like it was originally planned. It is like they are used as a pawn in a game. I know many people from that school and RP2/6 knew they were going from the time the school was being built and were happy.

Your memory is playing games. Tell me more about the original Options 7 and 8.


Not the PP but the original 7 and 8 were much later. There were only 4 in the original plan.

They came at the same time as Options 5 and 6. RP2 was staying in RMES 5 in all options is a lie.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:You mean Hungerford who originally brought Option B and started this mess? Then got giddy at seeing Option E presented and changed their tune?

I REALLY wanted an option that moved them out of the cluster all together.

What's wrong with Hungerford trying to start the new school with the best chance for success? What's wrong trying to even out the chances for all students in the cluster to succeed and get together in the middle school with better prepared students?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:

I don't disagree that there are tons of issues with the numbers but it isn't just B5 that is under projected it is the entire area.

There are currently only 55 kids living in B5N. MCPS is projecting that number to go up by another 43 for the current approved stuff and then potentially another 13 for the 200 plus proposed units. If those numbers are too low than all the projections are too low so everyone is screwed. B3 gets Tower Oaks which is 400+ units and then the Twinbrook Metro which is another 400 apartments and MCPS is only projecting 82 total kids for all of that and those include single family and town homes which do have more kids.

Also, the plan can't just be move all of B5 and B3 (1700 new approved and potential units) plus maybe RP5 (scenario E) to the new school and say that solves it. That puts all of the proposed growth except the CG townhomes in the new school. Other than B5 there is really no where else in the Beall district to grow...they tried to build 8 townhomes on West Montgomery and got shot down after years of work. We can't all scream about protecting "our" school and just push everyone south to the new school and hope it "works" out.


That's why I think it's best to leave room in all schools, but leave most room in Beall because B5N is by far the largest zone when it comes to growth.

I agree that it will be selfish for push all B5N in RM#5 , but why not simply put either B5S( 25 kids) or even better B6S( 50 kids) in RM#5? Both zones are stable with no new condos. That will free up capacity in Beall to take in future growth clearly visible in B5N and also not put pressure on RM#5.

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:+1000

Ritchie Park had a boundary study rep from RP2. There was no opposition from RP2 in the spring during the boundary study meetings. It was always expected that their zone would move. It is unfortunate the way the neighborhood is being used and talked about now.

That's simply a lie. Options 7 and 8 had RP2 staying at RPES.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I don't disagree that there are tons of issues with the numbers but it isn't just B5 that is under projected it is the entire area.

There are currently only 55 kids living in B5N. MCPS is projecting that number to go up by another 43 for the current approved stuff and then potentially another 13 for the 200 plus proposed units. If those numbers are too low than all the projections are too low so everyone is screwed. B3 gets Tower Oaks which is 400+ units and then the Twinbrook Metro which is another 400 apartments and MCPS is only projecting 82 total kids for all of that and those include single family and town homes which do have more kids.

Also, the plan can't just be move all of B5 and B3 (1700 new approved and potential units) plus maybe RP5 (scenario E) to the new school and say that solves it. That puts all of the proposed growth except the CG townhomes in the new school. Other than B5 there is really no where else in the Beall district to grow...they tried to build 8 townhomes on West Montgomery and got shot down after years of work. We can't all scream about protecting "our" school and just push everyone south to the new school and hope it "works" out.


That's why I think it's best to leave room in all schools, but leave most room in Beall because B5N is by far the largest zone when it comes to growth.

I agree that it will be selfish for push all B5N in RM#5 , but why not simply put either B5S( 25 kids) or even better B6S( 50 kids) in RM#5? Both zones are stable with no new condos. That will free up capacity in Beall to take in future growth clearly visible in B5N and also not put pressure on RM#5.




I like this idea. If we want to keep space in all schools then it's better to balance with smaller zones moving rather than one big zone with 100-200 kids moving from one to another. Moving big zones from one to another just shifts the problem to other school . Moving smaller zones will keep some room for extra growth in all schools.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:+1000

Ritchie Park had a boundary study rep from RP2. There was no opposition from RP2 in the spring during the boundary study meetings. It was always expected that their zone would move. It is unfortunate the way the neighborhood is being used and talked about now.

That's simply a lie. Options 7 and 8 had RP2 staying at RPES.


Most people didn't see those options as realistic.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I should have worded it differently. I meant to say that RP2 busing or walking is not going to force other zones to walk or bus. RP2 walking and busing also has nothing to do with capacity here. RP2/6 is pretty much same as RP5 in capacity. Capacity argument is totally different. Overcrowded schools impact the entire school and not just one zone.

As I said, many zones are using RP2 argument only to serve their own agenda. Some zones want RP2 to walk despite being a 0.7-0.9 miles walk and not an easy walk. Some zones want RP2 to take bus despite it's being less than 1 mile from new school. Both sides are making argument only to serve their own agenda and they don't care if those FARMs kids continue going to RP with bus or walk to new school.


CG3 issue is totally different. It impacts other zones in CG directly. Hope it makes it clear.

- CG1 Parent

Everybody knows by now that CG3 is special.

Special in what way?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:+1000

Ritchie Park had a boundary study rep from RP2. There was no opposition from RP2 in the spring during the boundary study meetings. It was always expected that their zone would move. It is unfortunate the way the neighborhood is being used and talked about now.

That's simply a lie. Options 7 and 8 had RP2 staying at RPES.


Most people didn't see those options as realistic.


Who are those most people and how did you manage to gather opinion of most people ?

We do have one Google Survey( 160 entries) which has 50% entry from CG. Are you referring to that?

All options were created and presented by MCPS because all options were on table.
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