S/O Why can’t moms just chill and be nice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m always dubious when an adult claims they’ve been bullied by another adult. I’m sure it happens on rare occasions, but I tend to think the person claiming to have been bullied is just upset they haven’t been made to feel welcome by a social group.
The meaning of the word bully has been totally watered down as well as become shorthand for “not included”.

NP. No, I have witnessed a lot of mean, passive-aggressive, uber-competitive barbs, usually toward women who are, yes, non-conformist in some respect. It is very much like high school and it shocks me every time to hear these kinds of coded insults coming out of grown women's mouths. The nice moms are out there for sure, but can take a bit of effort to suss out. I have lived in a number of different areas and never felt cautious in mom groups outside of the DMV. Here there is usually one, or more than one, competing for Queen B status. Travel sports moms are notorious for this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m always dubious when an adult claims they’ve been bullied by another adult. I’m sure it happens on rare occasions, but I tend to think the person claiming to have been bullied is just upset they haven’t been made to feel welcome by a social group.
The meaning of the word bully has been totally watered down as well as become shorthand for “not included”.

NP. No, I have witnessed a lot of mean, passive-aggressive, uber-competitive barbs, usually toward women who are, yes, non-conformist in some respect. It is very much like high school and it shocks me every time to hear these kinds of coded insults coming out of grown women's mouths. The nice moms are out there for sure, but can take a bit of effort to suss out. I have lived in a number of different areas and never felt cautious in mom groups outside of the DMV. Here there is usually one, or more than one, competing for Queen B status. Travel sports moms are notorious for this.

+1. I live in an area of Northern Virginia mentioned on this site as welcoming, and family friendly. The things I hear at neighborhood get togethers about other moms by supposed "friends" is insane. Not to mention, the passive-aggressive, catty remarks that are made to each other's faces. And this is between women within a friend group. Also, there are several women vying to be queen bee - one of which is an assistant principal at an FCPS high school. I hope she is more mature at work than she is in the neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m always dubious when an adult claims they’ve been bullied by another adult. I’m sure it happens on rare occasions, but I tend to think the person claiming to have been bullied is just upset they haven’t been made to feel welcome by a social group.
The meaning of the word bully has been totally watered down as well as become shorthand for “not included”.

Let me help, because I think you just don't know what bullying is.

Bullying requires engagement. If someone just isn't inclusive of you or doesn't want to be your friend, that's not bullying. That's a person expressing a social preference. It can hurt, and it can even be done in a hurtful way, but it's not bullying. It's just rejection.

Bullies engage and use that engagement to harm. Usually bullies befriend (in order to learn about you and collect info) and THEN reject. This happened to me in a workplace once. When I started, these women were *so* friendly -- they'd invite me to lunch or to parties at their homes, they'd swing by my office to chat, etc. But then they started gossiping about me, using things I'd shared with them (not secrets but just details about my life that they only knew because they'd gone out of their way to befriend me) to talk a bunch of s**t about me. They continued to act friendly to my face and never said anything to indicate to me that they had an issue with me. So I heard about everything second hand from other colleagues. They stopped inviting me to things but then would discuss these events during work meetings or in the hallway outside my office so that I knew I hadn't been invited. They had this way of looking at me and then at each other -- they had clearly decided I wasn't good enough for them and were enjoying how their shared dislike of me made them more of a unit. I think they also liked the feeling of power that came from judging me and finding me wanting. It was affirming for them.

They could have just... not befriended me. I watched them do this with another woman who joined the office after me -- they'd come on really strong and adopt the new person and then turn on her. There was also someone else who joined and they befriended her but didn't turn on her. I guess they decided she was one of them. But this is not just social rejection. It is aggressive behavior and I don't know how to describe it other than to call it bullying. It's the adult version of Mean Girls, the same weird social aggression masked as friendship. It definitely happens.

[Anonymous]

The dads are no better sometimes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m always dubious when an adult claims they’ve been bullied by another adult. I’m sure it happens on rare occasions, but I tend to think the person claiming to have been bullied is just upset they haven’t been made to feel welcome by a social group.
The meaning of the word bully has been totally watered down as well as become shorthand for “not included”.

NP. No, I have witnessed a lot of mean, passive-aggressive, uber-competitive barbs, usually toward women who are, yes, non-conformist in some respect. It is very much like high school and it shocks me every time to hear these kinds of coded insults coming out of grown women's mouths. The nice moms are out there for sure, but can take a bit of effort to suss out. I have lived in a number of different areas and never felt cautious in mom groups outside of the DMV. Here there is usually one, or more than one, competing for Queen B status. Travel sports moms are notorious for this.

What's amazing me is that I'm seeing these same behaviors reflected in the moms' 12-13 yo daughters. The same clique behavior over trendy clothes, hair, iPhones, and nails. I think it's just not my crowd or values.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The dads are no better sometimes.

Socially competitive people marry each other. So often there's a symbiotic relationship. But what's weird is that it usually flows through the relationships among the women. Like I've never seen it where the dads all get together and decide who is in and who is out and then their wives follow suit -- it's always the other way. The dads participate and back up their wives, but the decisions about who is allowed to be part of a group is all made by the women. It's very interesting, from a sociological standpoint.

[Anonymous]

The cliques suck. I am very fun but a social floater with really limited tolerance for BS and hierarchy. My best friends are DINKs. I saw what I needed to and it wasn't for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know but I was at a dinner last night with a group of moms and walked away feeling horribly bullied. I haven't felt this bad about a social interaction since high school.

Ugh. I’m sorry. What happened? Were these people you consider friends?

OP, it varies and is luck of the draw. Steer clear of Queen types.

These are folks who are supposed to be friends, though I no longer put them in that category. The dynamic has been trending this way for a while and I'm done.

I'm very comfortable making my own decisions while this group likes to focus on everyone having made the same choices. I've chosen not to dye my grays, go to the same Pilates classes, learn to play mahjong, have the same rules for my tween's phone use, buy the same type of cars or clothes or jewelry, etc. I didn't care to conform in middle school and I'm certainly not in 40s, no matter how you speak to me. I have never criticized any aspect of their appearance or their choices, but here we are. They seem to think that I'm fair game for criticism.

OP, were they always like this though? You say you used to be friends with them but then your choices diverged and they started judging you. Were you conforming before? Were they previously welcoming to people who didn't conform?

IME women like this have always been this way and always will be. I have never been this way and learned a long time ago that I can't really hack it. I don't want to dress the same and do all the same stuff. It feels stifling to me. I'd rather have fewer friends and have to do things on my own more often than be a part of a cohesive group that enforces cohesion through conformity. It's just not for me. It sounds to me like you've outgrown this group and are more comfortable new just being yourself and making your own choices, and they are doing what groups like this do and closing ranks against you because your individuality is a threat to the cohesion of the group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know but I was at a dinner last night with a group of moms and walked away feeling horribly bullied. I haven't felt this bad about a social interaction since high school.

Ugh. I’m sorry. What happened? Were these people you consider friends?

OP, it varies and is luck of the draw. Steer clear of Queen types.

These are folks who are supposed to be friends, though I no longer put them in that category. The dynamic has been trending this way for a while and I'm done.

I'm very comfortable making my own decisions while this group likes to focus on everyone having made the same choices. I've chosen not to dye my grays, go to the same Pilates classes, learn to play mahjong, have the same rules for my tween's phone use, buy the same type of cars or clothes or jewelry, etc. I didn't care to conform in middle school and I'm certainly not in 40s, no matter how you speak to me. I have never criticized any aspect of their appearance or their choices, but here we are. They seem to think that I'm fair game for criticism.

OP, were they always like this though? You say you used to be friends with them but then your choices diverged and they started judging you. Were you conforming before? Were they previously welcoming to people who didn't conform?

IME women like this have always been this way and always will be. I have never been this way and learned a long time ago that I can't really hack it. I don't want to dress the same and do all the same stuff. It feels stifling to me. I'd rather have fewer friends and have to do things on my own more often than be a part of a cohesive group that enforces cohesion through conformity. It's just not for me. It sounds to me like you've outgrown this group and are more comfortable new just being yourself and making your own choices, and they are doing what groups like this do and closing ranks against you because your individuality is a threat to the cohesion of the group.

Our kids are on the same team so we'd all been friendly for a while, though never really a friend group per se. This is the first season I've seen clique behavior really develop and I don't like it. I'm out. I'll keep a couple of 1:1 relationships, but will not be a part of the group.

[Anonymous]

I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

OP does not claim this is "intrinsic" to women, nor dues she call women "mean, toxic shrews." Thats all your projection.

OP is describing a personal experience where other moms have been competitive or conformist which is not a behavior she notices in men around her. There are multiple explanations for this, including the idea that women tend to be more competitive or harder on each other *because* of internalized misogyny. Nothing OP has said indicates that she thinks women are intrinsically inferior to men, only that she's noticed a behavior among women in her life that is not present in the men and is asking why.

It is a behavior many women have noticed in groups of women, this isn't a new line of inquiry, it's a documented phenomenon, even if you personally have not experienced it.

[Anonymous]

It definitely happens with dads too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

It's definitely internalized misogyny.

[Anonymous]

The moms like this are not your people OP. You need to find your people.
I’ve got great mom friends, I’ve met people here and there over the years who I’ve made small talk with, and realized they’re not for me. That’s ok. You are not for everyone either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm troubled by the fact that you think this is unique and intrinsic to women. What you're describing - a dynamic where women are mean, toxic shrews and men are cool and "chill" - is so regressive and anti-woman that it feels like something you'd hear 20 years ago.

My guess is that you're giving off "I'm not like the other girls!" vibes that other women find offensive and off-putting. I love women and I'm certainly not going to forge a relationship with someone who thinks women suck and are inherently inferior to men.

OP does not claim this is "intrinsic" to women, nor dues she call women "mean, toxic shrews." Thats all your projection.

OP is describing a personal experience where other moms have been competitive or conformist which is not a behavior she notices in men around her. There are multiple explanations for this, including the idea that women tend to be more competitive or harder on each other *because* of internalized misogyny. Nothing OP has said indicates that she thinks women are intrinsically inferior to men, only that she's noticed a behavior among women in her life that is not present in the men and is asking why.

It is a behavior many women have noticed in groups of women, this isn't a new line of inquiry, it's a documented phenomenon, even if you personally have not experienced it.

This is all excuses and justification. OP's own internalized misogyny is hurting her ability to connect with other women. I'm not buying the anti-woman BS that tells us that female bullying is a "documented phenomenon" that isn't present in men. Spare me, please.