How should I advise DD on these “mean girl” friendships?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stating loudly over and over that it’s bullying and be kind to a kid who is inclined toward this behavior and riding the high of a cool group isn’t going to work as a strategy. They’ve heard that so many times in the current environment including at school repeatedly. If it hasn’t worked so far not going to work now.

The biggest queen bee at our middle school has a mom who this is her party line and the mom is so clueless about the daughter. Her peers took care of the issue and mom is still clueless and giving her the generic talking points and thinks her daughter is the victim.

I said "this is bullying" the PP who repeatedly relativized issues, because "nobody is nice 100% of the time". I didn't say - "oh, well, tell to your daughter that this is bullying, and things will fix themselves".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a division of the cooler prettier girls during the teen years.

I remember going to middle school and I had a good friend drop me for the cool popular crowd. I made new friends who were equally pretty and nice but we didn’t hang out with boys. The friend who acted like she no longer knew me was basically recruited by the cool boys. I never thought of my friend as mean.

Parents who present the kids who go off with popular friends or find a new group as "mean" are genuinely missing an opportunity. Friendships shift. People grow apart. Sometimes we might like it and sometimes we might not. It's part of life. Do teen girls always handle it the best way they could? Nope. So talk about that. But really it is normal for friendships to change so teach your kids to be resilient and move on with as much grace as possible.

Please. Giggling and whispering while looking at a former best friend, whom you suddenly completely ignore for no good reason, is not "people growing apart" and "friendship changing". It is bullying. And with so many mothers unable to see it for it is, no wonder it's rampant.

Did anyone read this part...

Do teen girls always handle it the best way they could? Nope. So talk about that.

They are not suddenly ignoring them for no good reason TO THEM. In their middle school brain, being cool is really important. Don't shame them for it. Talk to them about it. Is being popular "real"? Not really. Does it feel good in the moment? Sure and why. Is it going to last? Probably not. What is actually important in a friendship? What are you willing to do to be or stay popular? How does that feel? Are you even having any fun?

I still think a lot of you are just missing an opportunity for conversation and have black and white thinking. Most of our kids are going to be both on the receiving and giving end of this type of crap.

There is no good reason to completely ignore someone you know very well, much less giggle at them. There is something called kindness, and if that's not your thing, politeness. When you grow apart, regardless of whether the reason is a good or a stupid one (to you, or to someone else) you say hello and make some small talk on occasion. You don't laugh at them. You don' ridicule them.

The problem here is not the friendship group changed, or that teens grew apart - this happens all the time, as it should. It's the bullying. You keep trivializing bullying because "nobody is perfect" and let's not do "black and white thinking". But in your oh so sophisticated gray world, there are a lot of shades of gray. And bullying is a pretty dark one.

Agreed.

PP who keeps talking about the opportunity to talk - of course it is. You talk to them about how it IS natural that friendships shift at this age and throughout life AND you emphasize how to do that while still being a kind person. You talk to your kids about NOT being a bully. You don't justify their teen BS reasons (i.e. being cool). You emphasize that treating others poorly to be cool is, well, NOT cool.

And if your kid is the target of mean behavior, you talk to them about that, too. Standing up for themselves, finding kinder people to be around, what real friendship looks like, etc. And mostly you listen, so that they have a safe place to discuss how they feel.

And that comment about don't shame them for it or don't call it "mean". Hell, no to that. They should feel some shame if they are mistreating an old friend simply based on some middle school ideas about being cool. Shame serves a purpose when you are growing and developing. If you mistreat someone, you should be called out on it, the word "mean" can be applied, and you should feel shame.

Reading comprehension.

It said don’t shame them for being interested in being popular. Which I agree with. Yes be firm about being kind and sure it’s bullying. It’s not trivializing bullying to help a kid think about what they’re doing and why. Both things can happen. Firm boundaries for kid and a conversation.

Point is try to have actual convos.

I can assure you that we are having actual convos with our bullied daughters every single day. I am wondering what the bullies' mothers are doing? Judging from your responses, not much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hugs to you, mama OP.
This sucks.
(And it also sucks to be mama of girl A bc she probably notices too and doesn’t know quite what to do to caution her DD not to hitch her wagon to girls who might steer her DD down this mean girl path.)

TBH I would tell her that you are proud of who she is and that she knows her value and worth without the need to change herself and act in a way that goes against her convictions.
In other words, she’s authentically kind and compassionate to others—even when they don’t behave in a way that would seem to justify her having a different attitude toward them.
And you can agree that these girls may or may not “come around” to being decent again. But I’d also caution her that leaving the door open for that possibility doesn’t mean accepting that their current treatment of her has been or is okay. It just means that she’s being the bigger person to allow them to grow to regret their actions and change course.
Emphasize that we can’t control what other do. We can only control how we respond. And she’s doing great!

+1. The mean girl crap is essentially about and knowing and being with people who want you around, OP. Your daughter is doing great. If she is happy and with supportive people who raise her up, that is a lesson all its own. Well done!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a division of the cooler prettier girls during the teen years.

I remember going to middle school and I had a good friend drop me for the cool popular crowd. I made new friends who were equally pretty and nice but we didn’t hang out with boys. The friend who acted like she no longer knew me was basically recruited by the cool boys. I never thought of my friend as mean.

This is true but in IME the cooler, prettier girls have endless drama and don’t do well in school because they are focused on the social scene and not studies.

Inaccurate stereotyping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a division of the cooler prettier girls during the teen years.

I remember going to middle school and I had a good friend drop me for the cool popular crowd. I made new friends who were equally pretty and nice but we didn’t hang out with boys. The friend who acted like she no longer knew me was basically recruited by the cool boys. I never thought of my friend as mean.

Parents who present the kids who go off with popular friends or find a new group as "mean" are genuinely missing an opportunity. Friendships shift. People grow apart. Sometimes we might like it and sometimes we might not. It's part of life. Do teen girls always handle it the best way they could? Nope. So talk about that. But really it is normal for friendships to change so teach your kids to be resilient and move on with as much grace as possible.

Please. Giggling and whispering while looking at a former best friend, whom you suddenly completely ignore for no good reason, is not "people growing apart" and "friendship changing". It is bullying. And with so many mothers unable to see it for it is, no wonder it's rampant.

Did anyone read this part...

Do teen girls always handle it the best way they could? Nope. So talk about that.

They are not suddenly ignoring them for no good reason TO THEM. In their middle school brain, being cool is really important. Don't shame them for it. Talk to them about it. Is being popular "real"? Not really. Does it feel good in the moment? Sure and why. Is it going to last? Probably not. What is actually important in a friendship? What are you willing to do to be or stay popular? How does that feel? Are you even having any fun?

I still think a lot of you are just missing an opportunity for conversation and have black and white thinking. Most of our kids are going to be both on the receiving and giving end of this type of crap.

There is no good reason to completely ignore someone you know very well, much less giggle at them. There is something called kindness, and if that's not your thing, politeness. When you grow apart, regardless of whether the reason is a good or a stupid one (to you, or to someone else) you say hello and make some small talk on occasion. You don't laugh at them. You don' ridicule them.

The problem here is not the friendship group changed, or that teens grew apart - this happens all the time, as it should. It's the bullying. You keep trivializing bullying because "nobody is perfect" and let's not do "black and white thinking". But in your oh so sophisticated gray world, there are a lot of shades of gray. And bullying is a pretty dark one.

Agreed.

PP who keeps talking about the opportunity to talk - of course it is. You talk to them about how it IS natural that friendships shift at this age and throughout life AND you emphasize how to do that while still being a kind person. You talk to your kids about NOT being a bully. You don't justify their teen BS reasons (i.e. being cool). You emphasize that treating others poorly to be cool is, well, NOT cool.

And if your kid is the target of mean behavior, you talk to them about that, too. Standing up for themselves, finding kinder people to be around, what real friendship looks like, etc. And mostly you listen, so that they have a safe place to discuss how they feel.

And that comment about don't shame them for it or don't call it "mean". Hell, no to that. They should feel some shame if they are mistreating an old friend simply based on some middle school ideas about being cool. Shame serves a purpose when you are growing and developing. If you mistreat someone, you should be called out on it, the word "mean" can be applied, and you should feel shame.

Reading comprehension.

It said don’t shame them for being interested in being popular. Which I agree with. Yes be firm about being kind and sure it’s bullying. It’s not trivializing bullying to help a kid think about what they’re doing and why. Both things can happen. Firm boundaries for kid and a conversation.

Point is try to have actual convos.

I can assure you that we are having actual convos with our bullied daughters every single day. I am wondering what the bullies' mothers are doing? Judging from your responses, not much.

Why are you assuming my kid is not bullied and my kid is a bully? Also these responses aren't all from one person but I did chime in.

I don't assume my kid isn't part of the ecosystem at some point on the other side or hasn't been at some point. When they get bullied perfect opportunity to talk about not being a bully. YMMV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stating loudly over and over that it’s bullying and be kind to a kid who is inclined toward this behavior and riding the high of a cool group isn’t going to work as a strategy. They’ve heard that so many times in the current environment including at school repeatedly. If it hasn’t worked so far not going to work now.

The biggest queen bee at our middle school has a mom who this is her party line and the mom is so clueless about the daughter. Her peers took care of the issue and mom is still clueless and giving her the generic talking points and thinks her daughter is the victim.

I said "this is bullying" the PP who repeatedly relativized issues, because "nobody is nice 100% of the time". I didn't say - "oh, well, tell to your daughter that this is bullying, and things will fix themselves".

Who cares what it's called!!!! Talk to your kids about how not to be a jerk and spoiler your kid is probably a jerk sometimes. Unless you gave birth to the one human who never tried on being a jerk at some point in their lives. If so, congrats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a division of the cooler prettier girls during the teen years.

I remember going to middle school and I had a good friend drop me for the cool popular crowd. I made new friends who were equally pretty and nice but we didn’t hang out with boys. The friend who acted like she no longer knew me was basically recruited by the cool boys. I never thought of my friend as mean.

This is true but in IME the cooler, prettier girls have endless drama and don’t do well in school because they are focused on the social scene and not studies.

Inaccurate stereotyping.

True. The cool kids are sometimes (often?) not that attractive. But I’ve yet to see a queen bee type group that doesn’t have drama.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a division of the cooler prettier girls during the teen years.

I remember going to middle school and I had a good friend drop me for the cool popular crowd. I made new friends who were equally pretty and nice but we didn’t hang out with boys. The friend who acted like she no longer knew me was basically recruited by the cool boys. I never thought of my friend as mean.

This is true but in IME the cooler, prettier girls have endless drama and don’t do well in school because they are focused on the social scene and not studies.

Inaccurate stereotyping.

True. The cool kids are sometimes (often?) not that attractive. But I’ve yet to see a queen bee type group that doesn’t have drama.

You'd have to wonder what you did wrong as a parent if your child is obsessed with being friends with the queen bee. Find a different friends group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a division of the cooler prettier girls during the teen years.

I remember going to middle school and I had a good friend drop me for the cool popular crowd. I made new friends who were equally pretty and nice but we didn’t hang out with boys. The friend who acted like she no longer knew me was basically recruited by the cool boys. I never thought of my friend as mean.

This is true but in IME the cooler, prettier girls have endless drama and don’t do well in school because they are focused on the social scene and not studies.

Inaccurate stereotyping.

Indeed. My slender, beautiful daughter is bullied by fat, ugly girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stating loudly over and over that it’s bullying and be kind to a kid who is inclined toward this behavior and riding the high of a cool group isn’t going to work as a strategy. They’ve heard that so many times in the current environment including at school repeatedly. If it hasn’t worked so far not going to work now.

The biggest queen bee at our middle school has a mom who this is her party line and the mom is so clueless about the daughter. Her peers took care of the issue and mom is still clueless and giving her the generic talking points and thinks her daughter is the victim.

I said "this is bullying" the PP who repeatedly relativized issues, because "nobody is nice 100% of the time". I didn't say - "oh, well, tell to your daughter that this is bullying, and things will fix themselves".

Who cares what it's called!!!! Talk to your kids about how not to be a jerk and spoiler your kid is probably a jerk sometimes. Unless you gave birth to the one human who never tried on being a jerk at some point in their lives. If so, congrats.

You clearly care very much how it is called, because you are working damn hard to make sure it's not called bullying.

Once again, for you, because you clearly need some instruction in this area: "being a jerk sometimes" is not the same as being a bully. Bullying is a continuous targeting of a particular person with the goal to humiliate and socially isolate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You should say "maybe".

Because guess what maybe they will be friends again, maybe they will mature and change and grow, maybe they will apologize at some point or be better friends. They are all kids. It doesn't excuse bad behavior but I 100 percent guarantee your DD has not been a nice girl every minute of her life so far and you'd want other people to give her room to grow.

That's BS - mean kids pick on kids that aren't mean b/c they know they won't be equipped to fight back at least initially. OPs DD may truly just be a victim of a mean girl friend takeover which happens all the time when a mean girl sees that a nice girl has friends without having to manipulate them which they (mean girls) DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a division of the cooler prettier girls during the teen years.

I remember going to middle school and I had a good friend drop me for the cool popular crowd. I made new friends who were equally pretty and nice but we didn’t hang out with boys. The friend who acted like she no longer knew me was basically recruited by the cool boys. I never thought of my friend as mean.

This is true but in IME the cooler, prettier girls have endless drama and don’t do well in school because they are focused on the social scene and not studies.

Inaccurate stereotyping.

Indeed. My slender, beautiful daughter is bullied by fat, ugly girls.

The most tortured girls are the most beautiful because other girls can’t control their jealousy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stating loudly over and over that it’s bullying and be kind to a kid who is inclined toward this behavior and riding the high of a cool group isn’t going to work as a strategy. They’ve heard that so many times in the current environment including at school repeatedly. If it hasn’t worked so far not going to work now.

The biggest queen bee at our middle school has a mom who this is her party line and the mom is so clueless about the daughter. Her peers took care of the issue and mom is still clueless and giving her the generic talking points and thinks her daughter is the victim.

I said "this is bullying" the PP who repeatedly relativized issues, because "nobody is nice 100% of the time". I didn't say - "oh, well, tell to your daughter that this is bullying, and things will fix themselves".

Who cares what it's called!!!! Talk to your kids about how not to be a jerk and spoiler your kid is probably a jerk sometimes. Unless you gave birth to the one human who never tried on being a jerk at some point in their lives. If so, congrats.

You clearly care very much how it is called, because you are working damn hard to make sure it's not called bullying.

Once again, for you, because you clearly need some instruction in this area: "being a jerk sometimes" is not the same as being a bully. Bullying is a continuous targeting of a particular person with the goal to humiliate and socially isolate.

It's bullying. We all get it. No parent or child in this era doesn't know what bullying is unless they've been asleep under a rock.

They are bullies. Bullies are bad. Please stop bullying.

I just cannot stand parents who assume it's never ever their kid and never will be their kid doing this stuff. And let's recap and not forget...OP's kid is getting bullied and it's bad. We are anti-bullying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a division of the cooler prettier girls during the teen years.

I remember going to middle school and I had a good friend drop me for the cool popular crowd. I made new friends who were equally pretty and nice but we didn’t hang out with boys. The friend who acted like she no longer knew me was basically recruited by the cool boys. I never thought of my friend as mean.

This is true but in IME the cooler, prettier girls have endless drama and don’t do well in school because they are focused on the social scene and not studies.

Inaccurate stereotyping.

True. The cool kids are sometimes (often?) not that attractive. But I’ve yet to see a queen bee type group that doesn’t have drama.

You'd have to wonder what you did wrong as a parent if your child is obsessed with being friends with the queen bee. Find a different friends group.

Oh I wouldn’t touch the queen bee group! They are all frenemies! I was simply pointing out most of them are objectively not cute.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stating loudly over and over that it’s bullying and be kind to a kid who is inclined toward this behavior and riding the high of a cool group isn’t going to work as a strategy. They’ve heard that so many times in the current environment including at school repeatedly. If it hasn’t worked so far not going to work now.

The biggest queen bee at our middle school has a mom who this is her party line and the mom is so clueless about the daughter. Her peers took care of the issue and mom is still clueless and giving her the generic talking points and thinks her daughter is the victim.

I said "this is bullying" the PP who repeatedly relativized issues, because "nobody is nice 100% of the time". I didn't say - "oh, well, tell to your daughter that this is bullying, and things will fix themselves".

Who cares what it's called!!!! Talk to your kids about how not to be a jerk and spoiler your kid is probably a jerk sometimes. Unless you gave birth to the one human who never tried on being a jerk at some point in their lives. If so, congrats.

You clearly care very much how it is called, because you are working damn hard to make sure it's not called bullying.

Once again, for you, because you clearly need some instruction in this area: "being a jerk sometimes" is not the same as being a bully. Bullying is a continuous targeting of a particular person with the goal to humiliate and socially isolate.

It's bullying. We all get it. No parent or child in this era doesn't know what bullying is unless they've been asleep under a rock.

They are bullies. Bullies are bad. Please stop bullying.

I just cannot stand parents who assume it's never ever their kid and never will be their kid doing this stuff. And let's recap and not forget...OP's kid is getting bullied and it's bad. We are anti-bullying.

majority of kids are not bullies and will never be bullies. a lot of kids are bully-adjacent, but bullies are fairly rare. it takes a certain personality to be a bully, and few have what it takes. shy kids, for example, are unlikely to ever be bullies. doesn't mean they are perfect.