ICE Shooting in Minneapolis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

So is the moral here that we can kill people who approach us with a snide tone? Trump is snide all the time. Vance is too. In fact, this entire admin is snide. So, it seems logical that snideness is more than acceptable in the US.

JFC how thick can you be? Of course it doesn't give permission to kill someone. The officer made a mistake, one that he should receive some kind of reprimendation for. The point that some of us posters are making is that it was an understandable mistake given that,six months earlier he was hospitalized for being dragged by another driver, dealing with someone who was intentionally blocking him in (extremely hostile and agressive behavior) and being antagonized and belittled by the wife (who seemed to be part of the incident) and likely the victim herself. When the victim left she did so recklessly, coming within inches of hitting him (I don't think she was intentionally trying to hit him, but I think she was taking off in a huff)

All of these circumstances together led him to make a split second decision to shoot. The wrong decision, a decision that will at a minimum cost him his job, but given the situation not hard to see how such a mistake happened. These people are in a job where emotions are high, safety is always a concern, and if they make a mistake it could lead to tragedy. It's certainly not a job I could do, because honestly I don't know if I would have been able to keep from backhanding that b**** wife for talking to me like that. But I know that I am not cut out for such a job and sympathize greatly with officers who have to deal with a$$holes who deliberately try to heckle and insult them.

When you are licensed to carry a firearm and act as a representative of the state, you don't get to "make mistakes" to the level of lethal force because someone insults you.

Bruised feels hurt!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

Hey, I'm a doctor, and I get a lot more than that in the ER many days. If someone spits in my face AND belittles and insults me, is it still professional for me to choke them out?

DP.

Nope, but if they do something that you reasonably believe imminently endangers your life, and you have no other option, you’re entitled to defend yourself.

Such as stepping backwards?

Moreover, if a patient has previously been abusive towards you, that obviously impacts a reasonable person’s assessment of what constitutes threatening behavior.

So while her actions prior to moving the car obviously do not independently justify the shooting, they actually are relevant to whether the shooting was justified.

You mean when she tells him, "I'm not mad at you?"

That’s part of it (pointing to fault on his part), but so is her partner’s hostility, her hostility, and her failure to obey their commands.

Exceptionally complex situation. Facts supporting both “sides”, as is usually the case IRL.

All of which is 100% irrelevant to the question of whether there was a justifiable use of lethal force.

I'd rather be alive than try to prove a point with someone who's armed

Me, too. And I'd rather be on a street without any terrifying trigger-happy ICE agents.

Sure. But I'm not going to intentionally antagonize and disobey one.

Neither of those things happened. But even if they did, the penalty for them is not death. Officer Ross doesn’t get to shoot a “f***in’ b****” just because of it.

[Anonymous]

Ross's own cell phone video showed that he already had the vehicle's license plate number. At that point, the only thing the victim was doing that was illegal was a parking violation.

Even if you want to insist that she illegally knowingly intended to disrupt a federal ICE investigation of illegal immigration by blocking their cars, a) you have evidence on his own phone that she wasn't actually blocking traffic at that moment since cars were going around her and b) these particular ICE agents weren't even on an ICE mission (as per Noem).

Even if that were the charge - it's not an emergency situation where the ICE agents need to fear for their lives. Neither charge is a violent one. No urgent action needed to be taken, like dragging a woman out of her car. Ross already HAD the license plate number, video of the driver in the car as evidence.

Even if she were "fleeing the scene" - so what? A) It wasn't a violent crime (parking, obstructing and investigation). B) You have her - you have her plates, you know where she lives. C) They had zero reason to suspect she had something else she was hiding (like drugs, a dead body, whatever) in her car, as you might suspect at a traffic stop. If a cop pulls someone over for speeding, and while the cop is writing out the ticket, the person speeds off in their car? Sure - that's a reason to pursue. (Not to shoot them in the face. To pursue). But this was clearly a different situation, a different set of circumstances, as any experience law enforcement should understand.

Ross had the plate numbers, he got pissed at the wife's tone. He saw his buddies run up to the car and tell the victim to get out and saw that the victim was going to drive away. He then walked in FRONT of the car, knowing she was trying to get away. So he assumed his physical presence was going to stop her - something no law enforcement officer should ever assume - and if she failed to comply he was fully prepared to shoot her.

That's soldier mentality. Not civilian law enforcement mentality.

This is why we do not have soldiers policing our streets and enforcing routine traffic laws like parking violations and speeding tickets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

So is the moral here that we can kill people who approach us with a snide tone? Trump is snide all the time. Vance is too. In fact, this entire admin is snide. So, it seems logical that snideness is more than acceptable in the US.

JFC how thick can you be? Of course it doesn't give permission to kill someone. The officer made a mistake, one that he should receive some kind of reprimendation for. The point that some of us posters are making is that it was an understandable mistake given that,six months earlier he was hospitalized for being dragged by another driver, dealing with someone who was intentionally blocking him in (extremely hostile and agressive behavior) and being antagonized and belittled by the wife (who seemed to be part of the incident) and likely the victim herself. When the victim left she did so recklessly, coming within inches of hitting him (I don't think she was intentionally trying to hit him, but I think she was taking off in a huff)

All of these circumstances together led him to make a split second decision to shoot. The wrong decision, a decision that will at a minimum cost him his job, but given the situation not hard to see how such a mistake happened. These people are in a job where emotions are high, safety is always a concern, and if they make a mistake it could lead to tragedy. It's certainly not a job I could do, because honestly I don't know if I would have been able to keep from backhanding that b**** wife for talking to me like that. But I know that I am not cut out for such a job and sympathize greatly with officers who have to deal with a$$holes who deliberately try to heckle and insult them.

Shooting three times is not just a "mistake".

Especially the two shots after the initial shot. This required repositioning and aiming again. Enough time for a trained LEO to take a pause and realize the first shot was unnecessary. Resuming the shooting is to realize that permanently silencing the victim/witness is better than potentially having them survive to testify against you. Whatever you think of the Uvalde cop, this moron should be on trial way more than him.

The "danger" had passed by the time those two shots were taken (i.e., the kind of danger we all navigate in the grocery store parking lot every day). He has no case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

Hey, I'm a doctor, and I get a lot more than that in the ER many days. If someone spits in my face AND belittles and insults me, is it still professional for me to choke them out?

DP.

Nope, but if they do something that you reasonably believe imminently endangers your life, and you have no other option, you’re entitled to defend yourself.

Moreover, if a patient has previously been abusive towards you, that obviously impacts a reasonable person’s assessment of what constitutes threatening behavior.

So while her actions prior to moving the car obviously do not independently justify the shooting, they actually are relevant to whether the shooting was justified.

Well, you just made him look really bad since she smiled and said that she wasn't angry at them.

That’s certainly another relevant piece of the analysis.

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I may be the only person on the entire internet who hasn’t made up their mind about this.

IMO, based on what we know so far, both parties made mistakes. Based on this limited info, I think criminal liability will be a close call.

If you haven’t made up your mind, you’ve made up your mind. What happened here was murder, it’s clear as day. There is absolutely nothing to ponder.

You stand with fascists and vigilantes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

Hey, I'm a doctor, and I get a lot more than that in the ER many days. If someone spits in my face AND belittles and insults me, is it still professional for me to choke them out?

DP.

Nope, but if they do something that you reasonably believe imminently endangers your life, and you have no other option, you’re entitled to defend yourself.

Such as stepping backwards?

Moreover, if a patient has previously been abusive towards you, that obviously impacts a reasonable person’s assessment of what constitutes threatening behavior.

So while her actions prior to moving the car obviously do not independently justify the shooting, they actually are relevant to whether the shooting was justified.

You mean when she tells him, "I'm not mad at you?"

That’s part of it (pointing to fault on his part), but so is her partner’s hostility, her hostility, and her failure to obey their commands.

Exceptionally complex situation. Facts supporting both “sides”, as is usually the case IRL.

All of which is 100% irrelevant to the question of whether there was a justifiable use of lethal force.

Not correct. It’s part of the reasonableness assessment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

Hey, I'm a doctor, and I get a lot more than that in the ER many days. If someone spits in my face AND belittles and insults me, is it still professional for me to choke them out?

DP.

Nope, but if they do something that you reasonably believe imminently endangers your life, and you have no other option, you’re entitled to defend yourself.

Such as stepping backwards?

Moreover, if a patient has previously been abusive towards you, that obviously impacts a reasonable person’s assessment of what constitutes threatening behavior.

So while her actions prior to moving the car obviously do not independently justify the shooting, they actually are relevant to whether the shooting was justified.

You mean when she tells him, "I'm not mad at you?"

Ross was on some level infuriated by Good’s emotional regulation. Men who have his manifest issues do not like women who don’t cry and say sorry and tremble when he gets dysregulated. Men with no emotional control blame the women in the ambient for their own failures. Stieg Larssonhad this insight because it’s across all classes and ethnic backgrounds and cultures. Jonathan E Ross being a woman-murderer is not surprising at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Welcome to the next step toward Fascism folks.

I think that this will be the first step in reversing it. They are going to be forced to defend him in court and they will fail.

I think so to. Ross was so unhinged and Trump et al stepped in so quickly to reflexively defend him, that people are going to say enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

So is the moral here that we can kill people who approach us with a snide tone? Trump is snide all the time. Vance is too. In fact, this entire admin is snide. So, it seems logical that snideness is more than acceptable in the US.

JFC how thick can you be? Of course it doesn't give permission to kill someone. The officer made a mistake, one that he should receive some kind of reprimendation for. The point that some of us posters are making is that it was an understandable mistake given that,six months earlier he was hospitalized for being dragged by another driver, dealing with someone who was intentionally blocking him in (extremely hostile and agressive behavior) and being antagonized and belittled by the wife (who seemed to be part of the incident) and likely the victim herself. When the victim left she did so recklessly, coming within inches of hitting him (I don't think she was intentionally trying to hit him, but I think she was taking off in a huff)

All of these circumstances together led him to make a split second decision to shoot. The wrong decision, a decision that will at a minimum cost him his job, but given the situation not hard to see how such a mistake happened. These people are in a job where emotions are high, safety is always a concern, and if they make a mistake it could lead to tragedy. It's certainly not a job I could do, because honestly I don't know if I would have been able to keep from backhanding that b**** wife for talking to me like that. But I know that I am not cut out for such a job and sympathize greatly with officers who have to deal with a$$holes who deliberately try to heckle and insult them.

NP. No, PP. It is not a "mistake." It is murder. If he can't keep from reacting like that, then he never should have been allowed to do this job. Not only was he allowed, he was probably encouraged. Kristi Noem should be indicted for murder, too.

And you are right that you should absolutely not be allowed to be a LEO. I sincerely hope you do not own a gun.

And the agency he works for should be actively investigating, holding him accountable, and working hard to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again.

They should be agreeing with an independent investigation. They should be transparent in their procedures for oversight, for mental health care of their agents, and should overhaul their training.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And Minneapolis schools are now offering remote learning for the next month to any kid who wants it. This is what will happen everywhere that ICE is. And, my guess is, the teachers that were attacked at the MPLS high school yesterday? Their union is likely to back the STAFF who don't feel safe coming to work anymore and will let THEM stay home and teach virtually. I hope everyone is totally fine with schools shutting down again. Don't want that to happen? Stop allowing ICE to operate within a block of any school.

MAGA insists that Trump's ICE will make them safer, but ICE is terrorizing communities, arresting legal citizens, and causing children and adults PTSD through their violent tactics. ICE, under this administration, makes us all less safe. MAGA refuses to acknowledge that Dems and Indys weren't complaining about ICE previously, including Trump's first term. That's why people say it's a cult -- they refuse to concede that deportations can happen as previously (with due process and without violence) and also refuse to believe what they see with their own eyes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

So is the moral here that we can kill people who approach us with a snide tone? Trump is snide all the time. Vance is too. In fact, this entire admin is snide. So, it seems logical that snideness is more than acceptable in the US.

And here's the other thing. ICE is not acting like a legitimate law enforcement agency. They are acting like gestapo. Period. And American people, the ones who studied history, are unwilling to just let this gestapo agency haul people off the way the Nazis did. Americans are laying down their lives, putting themselves in danger for others. ICE entered school property in Minneapolis and tear gassed students and teachers. Students and teachers!!! Grown men did this.

My husband and I, who are as anti gun as possible, talked last night about getting a gun. This doesn't end peacefully. Either congress is going to step up and get rid of this entire administration or Americans are going to end up at war with each other. I don't see any other way out of this. I don't want this to be the case, but since it appears we don't really have a functioning congress anymore, I think this ends in civil war.

Then you should beg your Democrat mayors, attorneys general, & governors to cooperate with ICE by handing over illegal aliens who end up in their courts & jails. This is all preventable, but Democrats WANT it to be messy & bloody.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

Hey, I'm a doctor, and I get a lot more than that in the ER many days. If someone spits in my face AND belittles and insults me, is it still professional for me to choke them out?

DP.

Nope, but if they do something that you reasonably believe imminently endangers your life, and you have no other option, you’re entitled to defend yourself.

Such as stepping backwards?

Moreover, if a patient has previously been abusive towards you, that obviously impacts a reasonable person’s assessment of what constitutes threatening behavior.

So while her actions prior to moving the car obviously do not independently justify the shooting, they actually are relevant to whether the shooting was justified.

You mean when she tells him, "I'm not mad at you?"

That’s part of it (pointing to fault on his part), but so is her partner’s hostility, her hostility, and her failure to obey their commands.

Exceptionally complex situation. Facts supporting both “sides”, as is usually the case IRL.

Failure to obey commands?
This is not a police state. ICE doesn’t have unfettered authority to issue commands. ICE’s task is to enforce immigration laws. That’s it.

The correct place to argue that is in court, not during a tense confrontation with federal agents in the middle of a street.

And again, the point here is that it’s legally relevant to determining reasonableness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

So is the moral here that we can kill people who approach us with a snide tone? Trump is snide all the time. Vance is too. In fact, this entire admin is snide. So, it seems logical that snideness is more than acceptable in the US.

JFC how thick can you be? Of course it doesn't give permission to kill someone. The officer made a mistake, one that he should receive some kind of reprimendation for. The point that some of us posters are making is that it was an understandable mistake given that,six months earlier he was hospitalized for being dragged by another driver, dealing with someone who was intentionally blocking him in (extremely hostile and agressive behavior) and being antagonized and belittled by the wife (who seemed to be part of the incident) and likely the victim herself. When the victim left she did so recklessly, coming within inches of hitting him (I don't think she was intentionally trying to hit him, but I think she was taking off in a huff)

All of these circumstances together led him to make a split second decision to shoot. The wrong decision, a decision that will at a minimum cost him his job, but given the situation not hard to see how such a mistake happened. These people are in a job where emotions are high, safety is always a concern, and if they make a mistake it could lead to tragedy. It's certainly not a job I could do, because honestly I don't know if I would have been able to keep from backhanding that b**** wife for talking to me like that. But I know that I am not cut out for such a job and sympathize greatly with officers who have to deal with a$$holes who deliberately try to heckle and insult them.

Shooting three times is not just a "mistake".

It is when it’s done within a second of almost being hit by a car.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

So is the moral here that we can kill people who approach us with a snide tone? Trump is snide all the time. Vance is too. In fact, this entire admin is snide. So, it seems logical that snideness is more than acceptable in the US.

JFC how thick can you be? Of course it doesn't give permission to kill someone. The officer made a mistake, one that he should receive some kind of reprimendation for. The point that some of us posters are making is that it was an understandable mistake given that,six months earlier he was hospitalized for being dragged by another driver, dealing with someone who was intentionally blocking him in (extremely hostile and agressive behavior) and being antagonized and belittled by the wife (who seemed to be part of the incident) and likely the victim herself. When the victim left she did so recklessly, coming within inches of hitting him (I don't think she was intentionally trying to hit him, but I think she was taking off in a huff)

All of these circumstances together led him to make a split second decision to shoot. The wrong decision, a decision that will at a minimum cost him his job, but given the situation not hard to see how such a mistake happened. These people are in a job where emotions are high, safety is always a concern, and if they make a mistake it could lead to tragedy. It's certainly not a job I could do, because honestly I don't know if I would have been able to keep from backhanding that b**** wife for talking to me like that. But I know that I am not cut out for such a job and sympathize greatly with officers who have to deal with a$$holes who deliberately try to heckle and insult them.

NP. No, PP. It is not a "mistake." It is murder. If he can't keep from reacting like that, then he never should have been allowed to do this job. Not only was he allowed, he was probably encouraged. Kristi Noem should be indicted for murder, too.

And you are right that you should absolutely not be allowed to be a LEO. I sincerely hope you do not own a gun.

And the agency he works for should be actively investigating, holding him accountable, and working hard to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again.

They should be agreeing with an independent investigation. They should be transparent in their procedures for oversight, for mental health care of their agents, and should overhaul their training.

I read yesterday that many agency officials were really troubled by Trump and Noem's reactions and statements on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She literally said ‘I am not mad at you’ seconds before he blew her head off. How does that show she is ‘unhinged’

She said it in a very snide tone. But honestly, I think her wife is the once who escalated it and holds most of the responsibility. How stupid can you be to block in law enforcement and then belittle and insult them?

So is the moral here that we can kill people who approach us with a snide tone? Trump is snide all the time. Vance is too. In fact, this entire admin is snide. So, it seems logical that snideness is more than acceptable in the US.

JFC how thick can you be? Of course it doesn't give permission to kill someone. The officer made a mistake, one that he should receive some kind of reprimendation for. The point that some of us posters are making is that it was an understandable mistake given that,six months earlier he was hospitalized for being dragged by another driver, dealing with someone who was intentionally blocking him in (extremely hostile and agressive behavior) and being antagonized and belittled by the wife (who seemed to be part of the incident) and likely the victim herself. When the victim left she did so recklessly, coming within inches of hitting him (I don't think she was intentionally trying to hit him, but I think she was taking off in a huff)

All of these circumstances together led him to make a split second decision to shoot. The wrong decision, a decision that will at a minimum cost him his job, but given the situation not hard to see how such a mistake happened. These people are in a job where emotions are high, safety is always a concern, and if they make a mistake it could lead to tragedy. It's certainly not a job I could do, because honestly I don't know if I would have been able to keep from backhanding that b**** wife for talking to me like that. But I know that I am not cut out for such a job and sympathize greatly with officers who have to deal with a$$holes who deliberately try to heckle and insult them.

Shooting three times is not just a "mistake".

It is when it’s done within a second of almost being hit by a car.

You have a legal cite for that?