Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
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Anonymous
Yes, in nearly every non-religious or passively religious home. That's kinda the point. The history thing only becomes important when intolerant christians yell "I am offended you are appropriating the symbol we previously appropriated!" |
Anonymous
First, I don't care what goes in any church. Mine had fish symbols in it also, does that mean we should be offended by Bass Pro Shops? There is no intensity on this side to turn christmas into anything. It can be means what it means to you and exactly zero non-religious people will take any issue with it. But it is your side that is saying non-religious people should not put up a tree or celebrate the season. One side is intolerant despite the fact they they are guilty of exactly what they accuse others of. Get it, now? Finally? |
Anonymous
| NP. As an agnostic who was raised Christian, I have no horse in this race. But I think it’s clear that Christmas trees are cultural and not religious. They have more in common with Queen Victoria than Jesus. There are lots of Christians in the world who do not put up trees at Christmas because it is not part of their cultural tradition to do so, and it is not a form of worship in any way. There are also plenty of non-Christians who have adopted the Christmas tree tradition in Asia where the holiday has been appropriated in non-religious ways. It’s similar to how Mexicans eat tamales at Christmas. It’s part of their cultural celebration, but not a religious belief or practice. But I don’t care whether anyone does or doesn’t have a tree in their house, or what religion they practice. |
Anonymous
I'm the immediate pp. I'm not the pp you think I am. I'm not Jewish, I'm Christian and this is my observation of what Christmas has become. I get that you want to protect your religion, I'm just saying I don't think having a Christmas tree is an indication that someone wants to be Christian or that it's a slow creep into Chrstianity. It might be a slow creep into materialism, but given the gifts my Jewish friends give their kids for Hanukkah now, that's already happening. A pp said the decorate the tree with Jewish symbols, that's a great way to keep your kids in your faith from feeling like outsiders during this time. The mensch on a bench instead of the elf on the shelf also does this, and actually does it in a was that teaches about Jewish traditions. |
Anonymous
It's not really about protecting a religion it was more an attempt to understand the motivation behind having a tree if one were jewish and why traditional jewish symbols simply weren't enough. If somebody simply stated, as you did, that a tree helped to mitigate the feelings of being an outsider amongst so much overt christmas regalia I would have understood. But what i heard were statements of fact that christmas trees have nothing to do with christmas, that christmas itself is a secular holiday, that christians appropriated the tree from pagans in the first place, etc. There was a fair amount of evasion, deflection and frankly hostility that i found it curious. |
Anonymous
I am the PP you are responding to. I am Jewish. I don't care about appropriation. I care about Judaism and Jewish identity. |
Anonymous
Its a slow creep away from Jewish identity, which is related to, but not quite the same as, the Jewish faith. Since you are a Christian may I suggest that, unless you have made the study of Jewish identity, culture and history your vocation, you almost certainly do NOT understand the relationship among religion, culture, minority status, and identity among American Jews. Decorating a tree with Jewish symbols feels gross to me. I bet most born Jews who are not completely assimilated will share that feeling. If people want their kids to learn Jewish traditions, and prefer using holidays for that rather than a shul religious school, I would suggest Purim, Passover, Sukkot and Shavuot for that. |
Anonymous
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Anyone here read "The Conversion of the Jews" by Philip Roth. An excellent piece of fiction on assimilation and child indulgence.
Cultural survival isn't easy. We shall, as always, be saved by a righteous remnant. |
Anonymous
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I think the problem with this thread is that two different debates are becoming intermixed (so to speak)
There is a debate AMONG Christians (serious and nominal) about the "meaning" of Christmas and particularly its secular customs. There is a debate among Jews about the value and methods for Jewish cultural and "national" survival. The latter debate has, I am sorry to say, no place for Christians (or gentile agnostics for that matter). For reasons I hope would be obvious. |
Anonymous
I am the PP you are responding to. I am Jewish. I don't care about appropriation. I care about Judaism and Jewish identity. Not sure what that means... or why you care if anyone else has a non-religious tree in their house. |
Anonymous
Different poster here. I don't care what non-religious people do. What I find annoying -- not offensive, but annoying -- is people who keep claiming that Christmas is secular and therefore Jews should celebrate it as a secular or American holiday. If Christmas can be whatever it means, then I wish those posters (who may not be you) would understand that to most Jews, at least any who were raised with any religious or traditional fervor, Christmas means Christ. Even if the actual celebration for many people means Santa. Because Christmas means Christ, and Jews don't do Christ, Jews don't do Christmas. It's pretty simple. |
Anonymous
NP. LOL. Nobody here said Jews should celebrate Christmas. The only people who even care whether a Jew has a Christmas tree are other Jews. |
Anonymous
Well that will be news to all the people insisting that Jews do Christ. Which, as far as I can tell, is exactly zero people. Not sure what the problem is, still. |
Anonymous
And guess what, there are "other Jews" on this thread. Which you will note, is about Jews with Christmas trees, not gentile Agnostics with Christmas trees. Look, as a Jew I want Jews to embrace Judaism and Jewishness. But if they are getting a Christmas tree, religious or not, they are probably either doing it for the intermarried partner or they are too far gone in assimilation to really worry about. But what I and other committed Jews hear on this (and elsewhere) is GENTILES telling us "There is nothing "christian" about a Christmas tree, because yadda yadda yadda" which is not actually insisting on us getting trees, but is basically saying our reasons to not have one have no validity. Now if your issue is some fundie saying to you (a non religious goy) that you shouldnt be allowed to have a tree because you don't go to church, you can have that debate, but could you like have it in a thread other than whose title is specifically about Jews? |
Anonymous
Not sure what that means... or why you care if anyone else has a non-religious tree in their house. I also don't care if the tree attends church, or refrains from eating pork (non religious tree? Wut?) I care that Jews remain Jewish, and yeah, having a Christmas tree is another step in assimilation. We are a small people, and each one we lose matters. Again, unless you are Jewish, I dont think you can understand that feeling. |