Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

I don't think there are really any observant non-blended Jewish families that have Christmas trees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So on DCUM it's OK for one religion to use the unique aspects of another, but you can't wear a sumo outfit on Halloween unless you're Asian? So cultural appropriation is much more of a grey area here.

Let me ask: okay, any Christians have a problem with this Jew getting a pine tree and putting lights on it?

No, not at all. I don't see a problem with Jewish families having an evergreen tree in their house for the holidays. I actually love the idea! Christmas is about love, family, and celebration. If a Jewish family wants a tree, then that is their business. I'm Catholic and I put up Hanukah decorations in my house.

Sending peace, love, & joy your way! Have fun with your family and enjoy your tree. Don't listen to the haters.

This is seriously weird. Why on earth? And what even are Hanukkah decorations, other than a Menorah? You do realize that Hanukkah is a very minor holiday, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

Things DO become. Appropriation is part of history. That something that became part of the culture of group Y originated in group X does not mean its not a charecteristic of group Y. Especially when the meaning changes.

There aren't any european pagans left (I mean aside from goofballs trying revivals on reddit, or sh*t like that) The christmas tree is no longer a pagan thing. It survives ONLY because it became associated with the celebration of the birth of Christ.

A Jew with a tree is not celebrating Saturnalia (not that they should) or a Germanic winter solstice. They are celebrating Christmas, which is THE only place that old pagan solstice customs survive. Those customs are now linked with things like Christmas carols (which are sung by "secular" people of Christian background, doncha know). No Jew gets a tree because their kids envy the pagans next door who are doing a tree and also chanting about wotan and thor, or Jupiter and Minerva. They get them because they want to imitate their neighbors who are either Christians, or are descended from generations of Christians.

Look its okay that you want a tree, because your husbands parents had one, or because Judaism is not important enough for you to care about its holidays and customs. But this "oh its pagan" thing is a tired, cliched, excuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh man, OP, welcome to my life.

So my kid is only 2 and has no clue about any of these things, but I'm half Jewish/half Catholic and always celebrated Christmas and Hanukkah. DH has the same background, but celebrated Christmas only with the Catholic side of his family (no Christmas tree at his house). We fully plan to celebrate both holidays in our house--although DD will go to Hebrew school and have a Bat Mitzvah--because for us it's more about family history/culture than religion.

Anyway -- MIL talks a good line about acceptance, but had a fit when we first set up a Christmas tree after we moved in together. She's going to secretly fume about DD celebrating Christmas but we don't really care!

So long story short -- do what you want! I always figured that Jews celebrating Christmas seemed fine. Easter might be a little harder to justify, but Christmas doesn't seem that weird to me.

If you keep Easter only about the Easter bunny/Easter egg hunt and candy, it's very easy to Justify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

I don't think there are really any observant non-blended Jewish families that have Christmas trees.

To the bolded, it's a symbol of the coming of Santa and gifts. Most kids don't make any connection between the tree and the birth of Jesus. Most kids don't make any connection to Christmas and the birth of Jesus. Christmas in America is a commercial annual event marked by vulgar materialism--no real spiritual connection to religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

You don't understand how customs evolve over time? History matters but so does the present and it is undeniable that the evergreen tree has come to be a central symbol of the celebration of Christmas which in turn is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. What are you motives in denying these facts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

Things DO become. Appropriation is part of history. That something that became part of the culture of group Y originated in group X does not mean its not a charecteristic of group Y. Especially when the meaning changes.

There aren't any european pagans left (I mean aside from goofballs trying revivals on reddit, or sh*t like that) The christmas tree is no longer a pagan thing. It survives ONLY because it became associated with the celebration of the birth of Christ.

A Jew with a tree is not celebrating Saturnalia (not that they should) or a Germanic winter solstice. They are celebrating Christmas, which is THE only place that old pagan solstice customs survive. Those customs are now linked with things like Christmas carols (which are sung by "secular" people of Christian background, doncha know). No Jew gets a tree because their kids envy the pagans next door who are doing a tree and also chanting about wotan and thor, or Jupiter and Minerva. They get them because they want to imitate their neighbors who are either Christians, or are descended from generations of Christians.

Look its okay that you want a tree, because your husbands parents had one, or because Judaism is not important enough for you to care about its holidays and customs. But this "oh its pagan" thing is a tired, cliched, excuse.

Thanks for making the most important point -- that christians are the ones that appropriated the symbol, not the other way around!

I will also point out the irony of you saying "we can appropriate things, but you are not permitted to appropriate them back". Niiiiice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

You don't understand how customs evolve over time? History matters but so does the present and it is undeniable that the evergreen tree has come to be a central symbol of the celebration of Christmas which in turn is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. What are you motives in denying these facts?

Because they are not "facts" just because you say they are. The "facts" overwhelmingly support the opposite position.

Your "then why are there still monkeys" argument is laughable.

Also not sure why anyone else cares what other people do in their homes. I don't care if you hang Tupac posters up and say it is how you celebrate The Feast of the Ascension. Have at it. Why do you care so much what other people do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

You don't understand how customs evolve over time? History matters but so does the present and it is undeniable that the evergreen tree has come to be a central symbol of the celebration of Christmas which in turn is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. What are you motives in denying these facts?

If we are talking about how things evolve over time, the evergreen tree has become the central figure in celebrating gift bringing by Santa. As a class full of average elementary school kids and you would realize that. Christmas is all about gift from Santa, not about the birth of Jesus. So if you really think how things have evolved, I'm not sure why you are ignoring the present significance of Xmas.

[Anonymous]

^^ask

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

You don't understand how customs evolve over time? History matters but so does the present and it is undeniable that the evergreen tree has come to be a central symbol of the celebration of Christmas which in turn is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. What are you motives in denying these facts?

Because they are not "facts" just because you say they are. The "facts" overwhelmingly support the opposite position.

Your "then why are there still monkeys" argument is laughable.

Also not sure why anyone else cares what other people do in their homes. I don't care if you hang Tupac posters up and say it is how you celebrate The Feast of the Ascension. Have at it. Why do you care so much what other people do.

Your analogy is laughably idiotic....do you still see hordes of pagans celebrating around their evergreen tree? I couldn't care less what you do in your home but I find it interesting how you're twisting yourself into a knot in your eagerness to detach the christmas tree from christmas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas trees are completely pagan in origin, just like Easter eggs. You can feel perfectly fine having them.

Well, not really, seeing as the Torah prohibits worshiping any pagan or foreign gods. Christian, pagan, whatever -- not acceptable from a religious or traditional standpoint for Jews.

Which isn't to say people don't do it anyway, of course.

They are pagan in origin - that doesn't make them "worship." By the same standard, you'd have to give up those Hannukah gifts (just a concession to Christmas) and a surprising number of other things, like Valentines Day cards, bridesmaids, birthday cakes, and much much more. Good luck with that!

Giving money or candy ("gelt") is a tradition, but I sure am happy to avoid Christmas style gifts on Hannukah. Ditto Vday cards. Already married so bridesmaids are not an issue anymore, but could live without that. And giving up Bday cake would make things easier for our gluten free friends.

Anyway, trees are A. Pagan in origin B. Completely appropriated to Christian traditions C. Essentially rejected (unlike bridesmaids and birthday cakes) by the folk wisdom of the (american) Jewish people, as early as the 1960s. Again, the only Jews I know who do trees are ones where someone in the household grew up non Jewish, OR where they are very assimilated in every other way.

I just think it's very dependent on how someone grew up. DH and I both grew up Jewish, but we are each half Catholic, from a family history standpoint (my mom is Catholic and his dad is Catholic). As a result, we both celebrated Christmas as kids. We're not very religious, but plan to have DD go to Hebrew school through Bat Mitzvah. We'll do Christmas and Hanukkah because it's family tradition.

That's exactly what PP is saying. If you grow up with a non-Jewish family member, you probably grew up with a tree or at least with greater comfort with Christian or secular Christmas traditions. If you grow up with only Jews who regard themselves as having a distinctive Jewish heritage -- even if not necessarily very religious -- having a tree is practically anathema. Maybe less so these days, but I am 38 and have many Jewish friends and family, and the only ones I know who have Christmas trees are those in which some member of the family is not Jewish (even if they are raising the kids Jewish). That's quite a lot of people, actually -- my BIL among them -- but the dividing line is pretty clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

Things DO become. Appropriation is part of history. That something that became part of the culture of group Y originated in group X does not mean its not a charecteristic of group Y. Especially when the meaning changes.

There aren't any european pagans left (I mean aside from goofballs trying revivals on reddit, or sh*t like that) The christmas tree is no longer a pagan thing. It survives ONLY because it became associated with the celebration of the birth of Christ.

A Jew with a tree is not celebrating Saturnalia (not that they should) or a Germanic winter solstice. They are celebrating Christmas, which is THE only place that old pagan solstice customs survive. Those customs are now linked with things like Christmas carols (which are sung by "secular" people of Christian background, doncha know). No Jew gets a tree because their kids envy the pagans next door who are doing a tree and also chanting about wotan and thor, or Jupiter and Minerva. They get them because they want to imitate their neighbors who are either Christians, or are descended from generations of Christians.

Look its okay that you want a tree, because your husbands parents had one, or because Judaism is not important enough for you to care about its holidays and customs. But this "oh its pagan" thing is a tired, cliched, excuse.

Amen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand if you’re a blended family but if you’re an observant Jew I find it a bit vulgar that you’d display what is quite obviously become a Christian symbol of the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Other than some vacuous feelings of envy, what is the real motivation to have a celebratory tree? Why aren’t traditional Jewish celebratory symbols sufficient? Sometimes a tree isn’t simply a tree.

How many times do you need this explained to you?

How much evidence do you need to see that this is not true?

Your incorrect, and likely intentionally dishonest assertion will be shown to be wrong again and again.

An evergreen tree in the house at the winter solstice is a traditionally pagan practice that predates the Christian celebration of the birth of Christ. If anyone should "find it a bit vulgar", it is pagans who should be angry that you are trying to mis-appropriate their symbol for your purposes.

Not the PP you are responding to but did you miss their use of the word "become"?

No, I did not miss that.

Things don't just "become". History matters. Ignorance of it does not constitute fact.

You don't understand how customs evolve over time? History matters but so does the present and it is undeniable that the evergreen tree has come to be a central symbol of the celebration of Christmas which in turn is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. What are you motives in denying these facts?

If we are talking about how things evolve over time, the evergreen tree has become the central figure in celebrating gift bringing by Santa. As a class full of average elementary school kids and you would realize that. Christmas is all about gift from Santa, not about the birth of Jesus. So if you really think how things have evolved, I'm not sure why you are ignoring the present significance of Xmas.

I don't know where you live but if you go to any church the christmas tree will be present and the services will focus on the true meaning of christmas, which is not the santa in the mall. Again, why the intensity of you effort to turn christmas into some sort of non-demonitational holiday? Is it simply to make you feel better about having a tree in your home?