Board of Veterans Appeals (Attorney Advisor)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:HHS hires a number of attorneys from SSA and BVA for their Medicare OMHA and DAB programs. Like SSA, these positions only go up to GS-12. However, the working environment is much better than SSA and BVA.

Also, it appears overtime is no longer available at the Board, but I believe it’s still available at other agencies for their decision writing attorneys. Does anyone know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HHS hires a number of attorneys from SSA and BVA for their Medicare OMHA and DAB programs. Like SSA, these positions only go up to GS-12. However, the working environment is much better than SSA and BVA.

Also, it appears overtime is no longer available at the Board, but I believe it’s still available at other agencies for their decision writing attorneys. Does anyone know?

I should note here that this poster is referring to PAID overtime. If you want to work 50-60 hours a week for 40 hours of pay though, the Board is a great place for you. The Great Myth that their quota can be done in 40 hours is the biggest lie they tell.

[Anonymous]

I would avoid working for the BVA (or SSA) at any and all cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would avoid working for the BVA (or SSA) at any and all cost.

I would avoid BVA at all costs. But, SSA can be a decent option for some people, such as parents with young kids.

[Anonymous]

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The ability to learn new areas of the CFR quickly and apply it to the task at hand is a highly transferable skill within the federal Gvt. The production requirement just shows how quickly and efficiently one can work [even if they aren’t making production but are close]. I know agencies that love getting prior BVA-attorneys because they know they work quickly and efficiently and are used to navigating complex areas of the law. Doesn’t matter that they are switching to another area of the law - if you can grasp veterans benefits law, you can learn anything.

Not PP, and I have never worked at BVA, but over the course of my 25 year legal career, I have worked at five different Federal agencies and have been a first line supervisor at two. Generally, that is not how Federal hiring managers think of things. They would prefer that people have experience in the particular area of law for which they are being hired, not generalized ability to apply sections of the CFR that have nothing to do with the practice area for which they are being hired. Also, any legal positions that are not solely writing-based will generally want experience in other areas of legal practice (e.g. providing advice to clients at meetings, taking depositions and discovery, negotiating with opposing counsel, regulation review, comments on legistlation).

I have no view on whether BVA is a good place to work, but it would not be considered transferrable.

Thank you for your comment. I agree with you completely. I always thought it was common sense that hiring managers want someone with specific experience in the field, rather than a generalized ability to apply the CFR to unrelated areas of the law. But, apparently our friend over there thinks that hiring managers at DOJ, SEC, EPA, DOT, etc., love hiring BVA attorneys who can quickly review hundreds of pages of medical records and the CFR to determine whether someone has a service connected disability. I'm sure that the ranks of the Office of the Solicitor General and DOJ Civil Division and Civil Rights Division are teeming with former BVA attorneys, as they have have a well honed ability to quickly apply the CFR. Alas, in the real world, this isn't the case.

In the real world, the only federal agency that loves BVA attorneys is the Social Security Administration, which also handles disability benefits matters. Many SSA attorneys transfer to BVA for the GS-14 potential. A lot of BVA attorneys also transfer to SSA. But, in transferring to SSA, BVA attorneys go from a job that has GS-14 potential to one that has GS-12 potential. This is not a good exit option in my book. BVA provides no transferable skills - some BVA attorneys are able to transfer to more prestigious agencies because they have prior litigation experience or prior related experience and not because of the skills gained at BVA.

This. Come to BVA with prior experience? Great, use your prior experience to get out. But your experience at BVA won't help you get a job anywhere other than SSA.

I left BVA for another agency and BVA was my first job after law school.

Are you in a decision writing job at your new agency?

Nope. I agree that it’s hard to move on to another agency after working at bva, but I don’t think it’s because of the experience you get at bva—it’s more about the quality of the applicant.

To the person who moved to a different agency, if you don’t mind me asking...how many years did you spend working at the BVA prior to working at this new agency?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would avoid working for the BVA (or SSA) at any and all cost.

I would avoid BVA at all costs. But, SSA can be a decent option for some people, such as parents with young kids.

Life at SSA (well at least at the Appeals Council level) sounds nothing like what is described about the BVA. Nice people, flexible hours, telework (even pre-COVID), and much more manageable production.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would avoid working for the BVA (or SSA) at any and all cost.

I would avoid BVA at all costs. But, SSA can be a decent option for some people, such as parents with young kids.

Life at SSA (well at least at the Appeals Council level) sounds nothing like what is described about the BVA. Nice people, flexible hours, telework (even pre-COVID), and much more manageable production.

Yes, but my understanding is that SSA jobs top out at 12 or 13 if you want to be a manager? so if you're happy with that pay then fine.

That being said, I agree with my colleagues here. BVA is the absolute worst job I've ever had and I'm older than many people at BVA, I've been around the block a few times.

I think its best to find another way to use your legal skills. These jobs are so terrible and boring and do not build you any marketable legal skills. Nobody cares about SSA law or Veterans law in the real world except the private bar. learn litigation skills, like how to draft pleadings, conduct depositions, apply the right pressure to settle a case, and how to take a case to trial. those skills can be transferred anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

This is probably the best endorsement for BVA. Come work for us, its better than doc review.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

[Anonymous]

If you want to be a writing attorney, try for one of the jobs at the MSPB instead. It is still a production system, and some of the cases can take a lot of time, but the area of law is fairly interesting. For any of these jobs, you need to be an introvert.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you want to be a writing attorney, try for one of the jobs at the MSPB instead. It is still a production system, and some of the cases can take a lot of time, but the area of law is fairly interesting. For any of these jobs, you need to be an introvert.

Yes, MSPB may be more interesting subject matter wise, but attorneys at BVA experience adrenaline rushes everyday knowing that they will be fired if they fail to draft a multi page decision every 10 hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you resign, how would it show up on your record later? Even with the Trump EO (that probably now has, or will soon be, rescinded), there seemed to be ways around it if you resigned before formal action was taken.