Board of Veterans Appeals (Attorney Advisor)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you resign, how would it show up on your record later? Even with the Trump EO (that probably now has, or will soon be, rescinded), there seemed to be ways around it if you resigned before formal action was taken.

Anyone who is forced to resign in lieu of termination has a duty to disclose the forced resignation. This duty applies even when the agency offers the employee a clean record (which relates to your comment about the Trump EO). If you don’t disclose the forced resignation and the agency finds about it, you can be fired and prohibited from working in the federal government.

http://askthelawyer.federaltimes.com/2013/05/09/by-resigning-you-cant-hide-pending-disciplinary-action/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you resign, how would it show up on your record later? Even with the Trump EO (that probably now has, or will soon be, rescinded), there seemed to be ways around it if you resigned before formal action was taken.

Anyone who is forced to resign in lieu of termination has a duty to disclose the forced resignation. This duty applies even when the agency offers the employee a clean record (which relates to your comment about the Trump EO). If you don’t disclose the forced resignation and the agency finds about it, you can be fired and prohibited from working in the federal government.

http://askthelawyer.federaltimes.com/2013/05/09/by-resigning-you-cant-hide-pending-disciplinary-action/

But in the real world . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you resign, how would it show up on your record later? Even with the Trump EO (that probably now has, or will soon be, rescinded), there seemed to be ways around it if you resigned before formal action was taken.

Anyone who is forced to resign in lieu of termination has a duty to disclose the forced resignation. This duty applies even when the agency offers the employee a clean record (which relates to your comment about the Trump EO). If you don’t disclose the forced resignation and the agency finds about it, you can be fired and prohibited from working in the federal government.

http://askthelawyer.federaltimes.com/2013/05/09/by-resigning-you-cant-hide-pending-disciplinary-action/

But in the real world . . .

Here’s what happens in the real world:

https://www.va.gov/oig/pubs/VAOIG-11-04049-205.pdf

https://cases.justia.com/federal/appellate-courts/cafc/10-3150/10-3150-2011-03-27.pdf

https://casetext.com/case/cahill-v-department-of-defense

[Anonymous]

Anyone who fails to disclose a forced resignation is taking a huge risk by not disclosing it, as there is no time limit to fire someone for intentional non-disclosure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you’re a bad enough attorney to get fired from the board, being an attorney is probably not the job for you. It’s not that hard to avoid getting fired.

Signed,

Former BVA attorney who left for another agency

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you’re a bad enough attorney to get fired from the board, being an attorney is probably not the job for you. It’s not that hard to avoid getting fired.

Signed,

Former BVA attorney who left for another agency

If the job is so easy, why are so many Board attorneys fearful about losing their jobs? Just take a look at the employee survey from 2018.

[Anonymous]

Also, from my experience, the only BVA attorneys who find the job to be easy are ones who work for judges that allow attorneys on their team to review only the most recent evidence in the appeal file (i.e., not review thousands of pages of evidence in the case file).

It’s easy to write a decision in 10 hours when your judge allows you to review only 200-300 pages of a 3000 page case file. Most judges at the Board aren’t like that.

[Anonymous]

As someone who has firsthand experience at the Board, I too find the Board to be a tough place to work at. This sentiment is doubly true for people with disabilities, as BVA management has a tendency to fire them very quickly.

Just a few months ago, the EEOC found that managers at the Board unlawfully fired a disabled employee. While I’m pleased to see this individual get justice, I’m saddened to see so many of my colleagues at the Board being forced to resign after requesting accommodations for disabilities. I truly hope things will improve, but sadly, I think that’s unlikely.

I’ve linked the EEOC case below:

https://casetext.com/admin-law/william-b1-complainant-v-robert-wilkie-secretary-department-of-veterans-affairs-agency

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you’re a bad enough attorney to get fired from the board, being an attorney is probably not the job for you. It’s not that hard to avoid getting fired.

Signed,

Former BVA attorney who left for another agency

If the job is so easy, why are so many Board attorneys fearful about losing their jobs? Just take a look at the employee survey from 2018.

DP. It could be there are a lot of bad attorneys at the Board. If that logical option alluded you, I could see why the law could present some problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you’re a bad enough attorney to get fired from the board, being an attorney is probably not the job for you. It’s not that hard to avoid getting fired.

Signed,

Former BVA attorney who left for another agency

If the job is so easy, why are so many Board attorneys fearful about losing their jobs? Just take a look at the employee survey from 2018.

DP. It could be there are a lot of bad attorneys at the Board. If that logical option alluded you, I could see why the law could present some problems.

Sure, there could be a lot of bad attorneys at the Board. But, if you read the survey comments, nearly 400 attorneys expressed concern about management’s decision to significantly increase the minimum quota from 125 decisions to 169 decisions a year (i.e., draft 169 decisions a year to not get fired). Keep in mind that in the previous year, an attorney who drafted 145 decisions a year was entitled to the highest rating and a bonus. I think most people would be nervous if management required them to get exceed an outstanding rating to not get fired.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has firsthand experience at the Board, I too find the Board to be a tough place to work at. This sentiment is doubly true for people with disabilities, as BVA management has a tendency to fire them very quickly.

Just a few months ago, the EEOC found that managers at the Board unlawfully fired a disabled employee. While I’m pleased to see this individual get justice, I’m saddened to see so many of my colleagues at the Board being forced to resign after requesting accommodations for disabilities. I truly hope things will improve, but sadly, I think that’s unlikely.

I’ve linked the EEOC case below:

https://casetext.com/admin-law/william-b1-complainant-v-robert-wilkie-secretary-department-of-veterans-affairs-agency

Reminds me of BVA’s “Forum of Hate” scandal involving a number of attorneys and judges.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/06ebc7b1278abc5e0d4f27d6ae8e5ae2?AccessKeyId=1FBD76F67BF87C8DD859&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would avoid working for the BVA (or SSA) at any and all cost.

I would avoid BVA at all costs. But, SSA can be a decent option for some people, such as parents with young kids.

Life at SSA (well at least at the Appeals Council level) sounds nothing like what is described about the BVA. Nice people, flexible hours, telework (even pre-COVID), and much more manageable production.

Yes, but my understanding is that SSA jobs top out at 12 or 13 if you want to be a manager? so if you're happy with that pay then fine.

That being said, I agree with my colleagues here. BVA is the absolute worst job I've ever had and I'm older than many people at BVA, I've been around the block a few times.

I think its best to find another way to use your legal skills. These jobs are so terrible and boring and do not build you any marketable legal skills. Nobody cares about SSA law or Veterans law in the real world except the private bar. learn litigation skills, like how to draft pleadings, conduct depositions, apply the right pressure to settle a case, and how to take a case to trial. those skills can be transferred anywhere.

The SSA positions in this area go to a GS-13 without becoming a manager. There are also non-managerial 14s that are tougher to get although not impossible. A lot of people do top out at a 13 or 14 though unless you become an Appeals Judge or move into management. Not everyone wants to litigate. In fact, litigating is one of the last things I would want to do with my life, but I would never insult someone for pursuing litigation the way you are trying to insult me. Some of us just want a six figure job with good benefits, the ability to set our own hours, and telework with the guarantee of never working late nights or weekends. I have young children and a hobby I’m passionate about, so I like having control over my schedule and not having work stress.

[Anonymous]

The Appeals Council positions that you are referring to only go up to GS-12. You have to compete to be promoted to a GS-13 non-managerial position. Unfortunately, competition for these position is stiff and years can pass before GS-13 positions become available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would avoid working for the BVA (or SSA) at any and all cost.

I would avoid BVA at all costs. But, SSA can be a decent option for some people, such as parents with young kids.

Life at SSA (well at least at the Appeals Council level) sounds nothing like what is described about the BVA. Nice people, flexible hours, telework (even pre-COVID), and much more manageable production.

Yes, but my understanding is that SSA jobs top out at 12 or 13 if you want to be a manager? so if you're happy with that pay then fine.

That being said, I agree with my colleagues here. BVA is the absolute worst job I've ever had and I'm older than many people at BVA, I've been around the block a few times.

I think its best to find another way to use your legal skills. These jobs are so terrible and boring and do not build you any marketable legal skills. Nobody cares about SSA law or Veterans law in the real world except the private bar. learn litigation skills, like how to draft pleadings, conduct depositions, apply the right pressure to settle a case, and how to take a case to trial. those skills can be transferred anywhere.

The SSA positions in this area go to a GS-13 without becoming a manager. There are also non-managerial 14s that are tougher to get although not impossible. A lot of people do top out at a 13 or 14 though unless you become an Appeals Judge or move into management. Not everyone wants to litigate. In fact, litigating is one of the last things I would want to do with my life, but I would never insult someone for pursuing litigation the way you are trying to insult me. Some of us just want a six figure job with good benefits, the ability to set our own hours, and telework with the guarantee of never working late nights or weekends. I have young children and a hobby I’m passionate about, so I like having control over my schedule and not having work stress.

I don’t think the poster was trying to insult you or your SSA colleagues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its better than doc review and you can still apply for other jobs while working at the BVA or SSA for that matter. Some folks have transferred from BVA to Office of General Counsel at Veterans or other agenices.

BVA is a trap job for doc reviewers. Yes, BVA is better than doc review in terms of salary. But, BVA forces a large percentage of new attorneys to resign within months of starting the job. So these attorneys end up back at doc review, but with the addition of a forced termination on their record. Not a good outcome in my view.

I think you are still better off trying it if you can. Even if you do resign (and that's not a forgone conclusion), you will at least have time on your resume as a (closer to) real attorney than doc reviewer.

Many doc reviewers do take the jump to BVA. Some succeed at BVA but for those who don’t, their future career paths in the federal government are limited as many federal agencies, such as the Postal Service, expressly forbid they hiring of former federal employees who left the government due to termination or forced resignation.

If you’re a bad enough attorney to get fired from the board, being an attorney is probably not the job for you. It’s not that hard to avoid getting fired.

Signed,

Former BVA attorney who left for another agency

If the job is so easy, why are so many Board attorneys fearful about losing their jobs? Just take a look at the employee survey from 2018.

DP. It could be there are a lot of bad attorneys at the Board. If that logical option alluded you, I could see why the law could present some problems.

Spend a day in a courtroom, you'll see a lot of bad attorneys there too, some who can barely string together 3 coherent sentences. Or do any kind of job where you interact with a bunch of attorneys. Some are good, some are horrible. any moron can graduate law school and pass the bar.