Can we stop referring to households making $200 or 300K a year as "middle class"?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I just read all 14 pages. (Isn't that pathetic?) Majority of DCUM has lost touch with reality even in DC. Take a drive down Benning Rd NE or Minnesota Ave (if you know where they are) both in DC. Then come back and tell us that your 200K income is middle class in Washington DC.

+1

Right... because there are poor people in the area, that means your middle class life style isn't middle class.

What kind of stupid logic is that?

And why would you +1 that garbage?

As some PPs have stated, you may be living a middle class life style but your income is not middle class.

I don't get it. What is "middle class" if not a lifestyle? If you live in a modest home and send your kids to public school and drive a Hyundai and save for retirement and college and don't expect to ever live off your "wealth," what are you? Housing, child care, and student loans eat up an enormous amount of money. I think it's BS to say that someone living in a 4,000 sq. ft new house on two acres outside of Houston and driving two new European cars on a $150K salary is 'middle class' but someone living in a 1,500 sq ft 60-year-old Cape on 1/5 acre in south Arlington and driving two Hondas on $300K is 'upper class.'

why do you care so much how people define you?

Because it is the basis for so much tax and social policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I just read all 14 pages. (Isn't that pathetic?) Majority of DCUM has lost touch with reality even in DC. Take a drive down Benning Rd NE or Minnesota Ave (if you know where they are) both in DC. Then come back and tell us that your 200K income is middle class in Washington DC.

+1

Right... because there are poor people in the area, that means your middle class life style isn't middle class.

What kind of stupid logic is that?

And why would you +1 that garbage?

As some PPs have stated, you may be living a middle class life style but your income is not middle class.

I don't get it. What is "middle class" if not a lifestyle? If you live in a modest home and send your kids to public school and drive a Hyundai and save for retirement and college and don't expect to ever live off your "wealth," what are you? Housing, child care, and student loans eat up an enormous amount of money. I think it's BS to say that someone living in a 4,000 sq. ft new house on two acres outside of Houston and driving two new European cars on a $150K salary is 'middle class' but someone living in a 1,500 sq ft 60-year-old Cape on 1/5 acre in south Arlington and driving two Hondas on $300K is 'upper class.'

We're doing this on 90k. What are you doing wrong?

So your mortgage is $4000 with a takehome of $7500 before taxes? How do you do that on $90k?

Ah. So apparently our definition of a "modest home" is different than yours!

A crummy ranch home with good schools with 3 bedrooms and decent schools with 30 minutes of DC is $850k. Everything about that house is modest except the insane budget busting price.

What is your definition of modest?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read all 14 pages. (Isn't that pathetic?) Majority of DCUM has lost touch with reality even in DC. Take a drive down Benning Rd NE or Minnesota Ave (if you know where they are) both in DC. Then come back and tell us that your 200K income is middle class in Washington DC.

+1

Right... because there are poor people in the area, that means your middle class life style isn't middle class.

What kind of stupid logic is that?

And why would you +1 that garbage?

As some PPs have stated, you may be living a middle class life style but your income is not middle class.

I don't get it. What is "middle class" if not a lifestyle? If you live in a modest home and send your kids to public school and drive a Hyundai and save for retirement and college and don't expect to ever live off your "wealth," what are you? Housing, child care, and student loans eat up an enormous amount of money. I think it's BS to say that someone living in a 4,000 sq. ft new house on two acres outside of Houston and driving two new European cars on a $150K salary is 'middle class' but someone living in a 1,500 sq ft 60-year-old Cape on 1/5 acre in south Arlington and driving two Hondas on $300K is 'upper class.'

We're doing this on 90k. What are you doing wrong?

So your mortgage is $4000 with a takehome of $7500 before taxes? How do you do that on $90k?

Ah. So apparently our definition of a "modest home" is different than yours!

A crummy ranch home with good schools with 3 bedrooms and decent schools with 30 minutes of DC is $850k. Everything about that house is modest except the insane budget busting price.

What is your definition of modest?

A townhouse in Gaithersburg. And it sounds like we like it a whole lot more than you like yours!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read all 14 pages. (Isn't that pathetic?) Majority of DCUM has lost touch with reality even in DC. Take a drive down Benning Rd NE or Minnesota Ave (if you know where they are) both in DC. Then come back and tell us that your 200K income is middle class in Washington DC.

+1

Right... because there are poor people in the area, that means your middle class life style isn't middle class.

What kind of stupid logic is that?

And why would you +1 that garbage?

As some PPs have stated, you may be living a middle class life style but your income is not middle class.

I don't get it. What is "middle class" if not a lifestyle? If you live in a modest home and send your kids to public school and drive a Hyundai and save for retirement and college and don't expect to ever live off your "wealth," what are you? Housing, child care, and student loans eat up an enormous amount of money. I think it's BS to say that someone living in a 4,000 sq. ft new house on two acres outside of Houston and driving two new European cars on a $150K salary is 'middle class' but someone living in a 1,500 sq ft 60-year-old Cape on 1/5 acre in south Arlington and driving two Hondas on $300K is 'upper class.'

We're doing this on 90k. What are you doing wrong?

So your mortgage is $4000 with a takehome of $7500 before taxes? How do you do that on $90k?

Ah. So apparently our definition of a "modest home" is different than yours!

A crummy ranch home with good schools with 3 bedrooms and decent schools with 30 minutes of DC is $850k. Everything about that house is modest except the insane budget busting price.

What is your definition of modest?

Agreed. Our mortgage is $3200 a month for a 2BD/2BR Cape on a 50x100 lot. My in-laws have 5,000 sq ft with a 3 car garage on 2 acres and paid something like $400K. But I guess they are "middle class" and I am "upper class" because of our incomes.

[Anonymous]

Just because you think Silver Spring is beneath you, doesn't mean you're middle class.

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is a middle class lifestyle (compared to the rest of the country) isn't available here to actual middle class earners unless you invested in real estate at the right time or had family help. If you work in the suburbs like DH and I do, you have it much easier as far as finding a place farther out to live. But if you want a typical middle class home (again, compared to what those of us who grew up in other parts of the country are used to) and you want to be in a reasonable commuting distance of your job with good schools, you need an above middle class salary.

The lifestyle of DC's middle income earners is much more modest than other parts of the country. So while 200k may be upper middle class for this area, the lifestyle it affords is not what most Americans would envision that income would provide.

[Anonymous]

If we're going to redefine the middle class as those making $200 or $300K a year, then let's stop pretend there's something "modest", "ordinary" or "typical" about being middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:$250,000 is the median HH income in the wealthiest suburb, Chevy Chase. Even in Bethesda and Potomac, the median HH income is below $200K. And these are among the wealthiest places in the entire region. In MoCo as a whole, one of the most affluent counties in the country, it's less than $100K.

Yes but this is not meaningful. Higley measures actual neighborhoods, and there are neighborhoods in McLean, Great Falls, Potomac, Bethesda and North Arlington where the average HHI is over $400K. Average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:$250,000 is the median HH income in the wealthiest suburb, Chevy Chase. Even in Bethesda and Potomac, the median HH income is below $200K. And these are among the wealthiest places in the entire region. In MoCo as a whole, one of the most affluent counties in the country, it's less than $100K.

Yes but this is not meaningful. Higley measures actual neighborhoods, and there are neighborhoods in McLean, Great Falls, Potomac, Bethesda and North Arlington where the average HHI is over $400K. Average.

What is "Middle Class" in the 20 wealthiest Virginia Neighborhoods?:

Neighborhoods in Virginia:
1: Swinks Mill-The Dominion Reserve (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $562,596, Higley 1000 #7
2.2% Black, 16.8% Asian, 3.5% Latino and 59.8% Non-Hispanic White.

2: McLean Country Estates-Glendale (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $498,944, Higley 1000 #19
0.7% Black, 10.7% Asian, 4.8% Latino and 81.0% Non-Hispanic White.

3: Douglass Hill (Arlington)
Mean Household Income: $416,717, Higley 1000 #39
0.3% Black, 2.2% Asian, 2.3% Latino and 93.3% Non-Hispanic White.

4: Ingleside-Old Dominion Gardens (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $376,004, Higley 1000 #83
1.3% Black, 18.8% Asian, 5.0% Latino and 71.2% Non-Hispanic White.

5: Woodside Estates-Peacock Station (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $373,813, Higley 1000 #88
2.8% Black, 20.3% Asian, 3.6% Latino and 69.9% Non-Hispanic White.

6: Langley (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $344,570, Higley 1000 #142
1.1% Black, 15.2% Asian, 4.9% Latino and 75.5% Non-Hispanic White.

7: Lake Barcroft Shores (Lake Barcroft)
Mean Household Income: $343,824, Higley 1000 #143
1.4% Black, 3.3% Asian, 8.0% Latino and 83.8% Non-Hispanic White.

8: Belle Haven (Belle Haven )
Mean Household Income: $342,842, Higley 1000 #147
1.0% Black, 2.0% Asian, 2.7% Latino and 93.0% Non-Hispanic White.

9: Oakton Mill Estates-Avon Park (Oakton)
Mean Household Income: $336,629, Higley 1000 #164
2.0% Black, 10.8% Asian, 4.1% Latino and 79.5% Non-Hispanic White.

10: McLean Hamlet-The Reserve (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $336,039, Higley 1000 #166
1.7% Black, 16.4% Asian, 3.7% Latino and 75.1% Non-Hispanic White.

11: Chandley Farm-Pleasant Hills North (Centreville)
Mean Household Income: $333,446, Higley 1000 #175
4.1% Black, 11.9% Asian, 5.8% Latino and 72.7% Non-Hispanic White.

12: Williamsburg (Arlington)
Mean Household Income: $329,735, Higley 1000 #197
0.9% Black, 2.7% Asian, 4.5% Latino and 87.0% Non-Hispanic White.

13: Potomac Overlook-Langley Ridge (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $319,669, Higley 1000 #234
4.4% Black, 15.0% Asian, 4.8% Latino and 69.5% Non-Hispanic White.

14: Brookhaven (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $302,814, Higley 1000 #314
1.9% Black, 6.8% Asian, 5.7% Latino and 82.2% Non-Hispanic White.

15: Chain Bridge Forest-Old Glebe (Arlington)
Mean Household Income: $300,767, Higley 1000 #323
1.9% Black, 3.8% Asian, 4.1% Latino and 87.4% Non-Hispanic White.

16: Woodmont-Dover Crystal (Arlington)
Mean Household Income: $298,376, Higley 1000 #334
0.6% Black, 3.1% Asian, 5.2% Latino and 87.6% Non-Hispanic White.

17: Chesterbrook (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $294,657, Higley 1000 #357
1.5% Black, 6.3% Asian, 4.9% Latino and 84.3% Non-Hispanic White.

18: Ridgelea Hills (Mantua)
Mean Household Income: $291,519, Higley 1000 #376
1.5% Black, 19.2% Asian, 5.0% Latino and 70.4% Non-Hispanic White.

19: Cedar Ridge-Kirkpatrick Farms (South Riding)
Mean Household Income: $290,158, Higley 1000 #393
8.3% Black, 31.4% Asian, 8.7% Latino and 41.8% Non-Hispanic White.

20: McLean Hunt-Timberley Park (McLean)
Mean Household Income: $288,058, Higley 1000 #406
1.1% Black, 14.1% Asian, 3.4% Latino and 78.4% Non-Hispanic White.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nothing ordinary about making north of $200K, which puts one in the top 5% of the country. How is that "middle"? And please don't say "250K doesn't get you very far in NW DC, Chevy Chase and Bethesda" - living in an expensive area is a choice. When I lived in NYC, I remember wealthy professionals in Manhattan saying these incomes are "barely getting by" - as if choosing to live in Manhattan isn't itself a luxury.

http://mic.com/articles/64095/what-we-get-wrong-when-we-define-the-middle-class

I disagree with your opinion. A family that makes $200,000 that has four or five children are middle class. A family with one or two children that makes $200,000 is wealthier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing ordinary about making north of $200K, which puts one in the top 5% of the country. How is that "middle"? And please don't say "250K doesn't get you very far in NW DC, Chevy Chase and Bethesda" - living in an expensive area is a choice. When I lived in NYC, I remember wealthy professionals in Manhattan saying these incomes are "barely getting by" - as if choosing to live in Manhattan isn't itself a luxury.

http://mic.com/articles/64095/what-we-get-wrong-when-we-define-the-middle-class

I disagree with your opinion. A family that makes $200,000 that has four or five children are middle class. A family with one or two children that makes $200,000 is wealthier.

wealthier, but not wealthy

someone making 40k is wealthier than someone making 39.99k

[Anonymous]

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I don't get it. What is "middle class" if not a lifestyle? If you live in a modest home and send your kids to public school and drive a Hyundai and save for retirement and college and don't expect to ever live off your "wealth," what are you? Housing, child care, and student loans eat up an enormous amount of money. I think it's BS to say that someone living in a 4,000 sq. ft new house on two acres outside of Houston and driving two new European cars on a $150K salary is 'middle class' but someone living in a 1,500 sq ft 60-year-old Cape on 1/5 acre in south Arlington and driving two Hondas on $300K is 'upper class.'

We're doing this on 90k. What are you doing wrong?

So your mortgage is $4000 with a takehome of $7500 before taxes? How do you do that on $90k?

Different PP here. The point is that while you live a middle class lifestyle that is only because you have chosen to commit a large part of your income to luxuries. You can do the same in a house with a $2000 mortgage, but you choose to live in an area where the housing prices are higher, probably because of a strong public school system. That is a luxury, one that the true middle class cannot afford. You chose more expensive child care because you had the means to do so, that's a luxury. Most true middle class cannot afford an expensive nanny or daycare center. If they don't have extended family to watch their children, they choose a less expensive in-home daycare or perhaps a non-resident nanny/babysitter who they can pay less. The middle class cannot afford to buy in Arlington, cannot afford daycare centers and make a number of other sacrifices that you don't have to make because you are not middle class. You may not be rich, but you are affluent, e.g. above upper middle class. In Arlington, the middle class is around $75K to $150K, so upper middle class is around $125-150K. You make more money than 95% of the area, so you aren't middle of anything other than middle of the top 10% of annual incomes in your region. You spend it on luxuries so you don't have as much disposable income, but you still get to spend it on things that the true middle class cannot afford.

Did you read my post? I said I live in a small, old house on a tiny lot and drive older, cheaper cars. Other people, who make what you consider a middle class salary but live in a place with a lower cost of living, can actually afford many luxuries that people living around DC cannot, including much better housing. I'm not saying I'm scraping by. But our standard of living is not really better -- unless you are seriously arguing that living in Arlington is in and of itself a "luxury" -- than what people would consider "middle class."

Again, the daycare example--just because it costs more here doesn't mean its better. The center-based daycare in an old church basement that my kids went to here costs almost twice as much as the one my in-laws send their kids to, which is in a brand-new building. I have to spend way more of my income to get the same thing that people in other parts of the country get for half the price. If I make more money than someone who meets your definition of middle class, but I have to pay more for housing, day care, gas, food etc because of where I live so I end up in the same place, why am I "upper class" and they are "middle class"?

Did you read my post? Yes, when you live in a more desirable area, then by supply and demand, the price and costs are higher. Arlington is more desirable than Burke or Springfield or Newington because it is closer in. The commute into DC is much shorter and people who work downtown will pay a premium to be closer to work. You are competing with people who want the convenience of living closer to work downtown who make more money and can drive the prices up. If you made $125K could you afford even your tiny house in Arlington? No. Once again, living in a high cost of living area like Arlington is a luxury. You complain about having a small church basement daycare that is more expensive than a exurban daycare in a brand-new building. But the point is that only people that can afford that expensive part of town for a small house and a church basement daycare can even consider living there. There is no way that a true middle class person can even consider buying a home in Arlington and being able to afford childcare in that area.

You spend your money on the convenience of living close to DC and especially if you live in N Arlington, for the benefit of good schools, too. You have the means to choose that (or choose to go for more bang for the buck somewhere cheaper). The true middle class has fewer options and those do not include what you have chosen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We make just over 200k and have for maybe 2-3 years. Our nanny has a far better claim to a middle class existence than we do. The simple fact that we can live in a nice home, nice area, and provide someone else's livelihood while still maxing retirement (46k) and putting money (16k) Toward college savings should disqualify us from the middle class. We will probably have around 4-5M by 60-65. In no way do I consider that a reasonable outcome for "middle class".

I was a free lunch kid at times and have lived in several different places. This area is just full of out of touch, entitled people with no perspective or empathy.

Every single one of these threads just get ridiculous - "after I spend lots of money and save lots of money, I don't have anything left". Duh.

X1,000 well-said

[Anonymous]

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I don't get it. What is "middle class" if not a lifestyle? If you live in a modest home and send your kids to public school and drive a Hyundai and save for retirement and college and don't expect to ever live off your "wealth," what are you? Housing, child care, and student loans eat up an enormous amount of money. I think it's BS to say that someone living in a 4,000 sq. ft new house on two acres outside of Houston and driving two new European cars on a $150K salary is 'middle class' but someone living in a 1,500 sq ft 60-year-old Cape on 1/5 acre in south Arlington and driving two Hondas on $300K is 'upper class.'

We're doing this on 90k. What are you doing wrong?

So your mortgage is $4000 with a takehome of $7500 before taxes? How do you do that on $90k?

Different PP here. The point is that while you live a middle class lifestyle that is only because you have chosen to commit a large part of your income to luxuries. You can do the same in a house with a $2000 mortgage, but you choose to live in an area where the housing prices are higher, probably because of a strong public school system. That is a luxury, one that the true middle class cannot afford. You chose more expensive child care because you had the means to do so, that's a luxury. Most true middle class cannot afford an expensive nanny or daycare center. If they don't have extended family to watch their children, they choose a less expensive in-home daycare or perhaps a non-resident nanny/babysitter who they can pay less. The middle class cannot afford to buy in Arlington, cannot afford daycare centers and make a number of other sacrifices that you don't have to make because you are not middle class. You may not be rich, but you are affluent, e.g. above upper middle class. In Arlington, the middle class is around $75K to $150K, so upper middle class is around $125-150K. You make more money than 95% of the area, so you aren't middle of anything other than middle of the top 10% of annual incomes in your region. You spend it on luxuries so you don't have as much disposable income, but you still get to spend it on things that the true middle class cannot afford.

Did you read my post? I said I live in a small, old house on a tiny lot and drive older, cheaper cars. Other people, who make what you consider a middle class salary but live in a place with a lower cost of living, can actually afford many luxuries that people living around DC cannot, including much better housing. I'm not saying I'm scraping by. But our standard of living is not really better -- unless you are seriously arguing that living in Arlington is in and of itself a "luxury" -- than what people would consider "middle class."

Again, the daycare example--just because it costs more here doesn't mean its better. The center-based daycare in an old church basement that my kids went to here costs almost twice as much as the one my in-laws send their kids to, which is in a brand-new building. I have to spend way more of my income to get the same thing that people in other parts of the country get for half the price. If I make more money than someone who meets your definition of middle class, but I have to pay more for housing, day care, gas, food etc because of where I live so I end up in the same place, why am I "upper class" and they are "middle class"?

Did you read my post? Yes, when you live in a more desirable area, then by supply and demand, the price and costs are higher. Arlington is more desirable than Burke or Springfield or Newington because it is closer in. The commute into DC is much shorter and people who work downtown will pay a premium to be closer to work. You are competing with people who want the convenience of living closer to work downtown who make more money and can drive the prices up. If you made $125K could you afford even your tiny house in Arlington? No. Once again, living in a high cost of living area like Arlington is a luxury. You complain about having a small church basement daycare that is more expensive than a exurban daycare in a brand-new building. But the point is that only people that can afford that expensive part of town for a small house and a church basement daycare can even consider living there. There is no way that a true middle class person can even consider buying a home in Arlington and being able to afford childcare in that area.

You spend your money on the convenience of living close to DC and especially if you live in N Arlington, for the benefit of good schools, too. You have the means to choose that (or choose to go for more bang for the buck somewhere cheaper). The true middle class has fewer options and those do not include what you have chosen.

Fine, but you're saying that choice and time (time not spent commuting) are what I'm spending my money on. Those aren't tangible luxuries, which are what people usually cite when they think of someone with a higher income ("you could just go to Starbucks less often" "you don't need to drive a Mercedes"). I don't go to Starbucks or drive a Mercedes, but I have a 30-minute commute. There is a big disconnect between how people perceive that income and what it actually buys you in a high cost of living area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just because you think Silver Spring is beneath you, doesn't mean you're middle class.

So true. We have what the PP described (3BR within 30min drive or metro ride to downtown DC) for $400k. You do have to be a little open minded and actually talk to neighbors and visit the schools as opposed to just judging them by their test scores, which is a lot of work for some people. I mean, if we tried to pay double that for a similar house in Bethesda we'd feel pretty poor too, but that would be of our own making.