Can we stop referring to households making $200 or 300K a year as "middle class"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the choice argument only works if these families could move to lower cost of living areas and still make that much. That usually isn't the case.

This.

I feel so sorry for those people who have no choice but to live in Chevy Chase or Great Falls. Must be tough.

It is. We bought a Chevy Chase home from family at a price what we would have paid in Damascus 15 years ago. They wanted the house to stay in the family and DH had just taken a job in a downtown nonprofit. That job is not transferrable to another place and we depend on Metro access to his work. We are the have-nots in the land of haves. Not all of us wanted to be exactly here, but life and jobs put us here.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't call anyone who owns a house a "have-not." Get a grip.

[Anonymous]

I think it's fair to say that most people in Chevy Chase are not middle class. With a median HH income exceeding $250K, more than 50% are above that level even using the very expansive Obama/Romney definition.

[Anonymous]

Your use of luxuries is incorrect.

I live in Arlington for the "amenities" which you stated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the choice argument only works if these families could move to lower cost of living areas and still make that much. That usually isn't the case.

The vast majority of families living in expensive DC, Bethesda, Chevy Chase or Arlington neighborhoods and complaining about cost of living, could move to Silver Spring, or PG County, or Burke and continue to work at the same jobs, and have the same income.

The PP was right. Short commutes, high scoring public schools, "walkable communities", these are luxuries. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have them, but they're expensive luxuries. If you're paying for them, and not making major sacrifices elsewhere, you probably aren't middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the choice argument only works if these families could move to lower cost of living areas and still make that much. That usually isn't the case.

This.

I feel so sorry for those people who have no choice but to live in Chevy Chase or Great Falls. Must be tough.

It is. We bought a Chevy Chase home from family at a price what we would have paid in Damascus 15 years ago. They wanted the house to stay in the family and DH had just taken a job in a downtown nonprofit. That job is not transferrable to another place and we depend on Metro access to his work. We are the have-nots in the land of haves. Not all of us wanted to be exactly here, but life and jobs put us here.

But if you bought the Chevy Chase house at a Damascus price, then your mortgage is presumably Damascus sized. How are you still struggling on 200K - 300K?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your use of luxuries is incorrect.

I live in Arlington for the "amenities" which you stated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the choice argument only works if these families could move to lower cost of living areas and still make that much. That usually isn't the case.

The vast majority of families living in expensive DC, Bethesda, Chevy Chase or Arlington neighborhoods and complaining about cost of living, could move to Silver Spring, or PG County, or Burke and continue to work at the same jobs, and have the same income.

The PP was right. Short commutes, high scoring public schools, "walkable communities", these are luxuries. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have them, but they're expensive luxuries. If you're paying for them, and not making major sacrifices elsewhere, you probably aren't middle class.

Expensive amenities are luxuries. There's nothing wrong with having them, but you have to recognize that having them means that there are other luxuries you won't have.

[Anonymous]

Apparently you lose common sense for every 50k increase. 200k is not middle class in any US neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Plenty of people with 200k HHI can't afford to live in these areas with "amenities" due to factors like student loans, child care, and having to break into the real estate market post-bubble. A 200k household with $500/month in student loans and two kids in daycare and a first home bought post-2011 or so is probably much more "middle class" than a household with the same income, no loans, a house bought pre-bubble, and kids who are out of daycare.

That's not to say that the first household won't eventually break into upper middle class, but I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that younger households feel strapped on that income.

DH and I both make about 100k, which is decent for this area, but not anything unusual. If we moved to Boise, ID we'd probably make decent salaries for Idaho, but I doubt we'd be rich. Middle class is all relative based on the metro area you live in and the extent of your school debt/how long ago you bought your first home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Apparently you lose common sense for every 50k increase. 200k is not middle class in any US neighborhood.

Neighborhoods are of varying socioeconomic levels. By this logic, someone making $250K is "rich" in Silver Spring but "humble middle class" in CC.

[Anonymous]

The vast majority of families living in expensive DC, Bethesda, Chevy Chase or Arlington neighborhoods and complaining about cost of living, could move to Silver Spring, or PG County, or Burke and continue to work at the same jobs, and have the same income.

The PP was right. Short commutes, high scoring public schools, "walkable communities", these are luxuries. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have them, but they're expensive luxuries. If you're paying for them, and not making major sacrifices elsewhere, you probably aren't middle class.

Honestly that was my thought as well. If you look at housing prices, median income levels, types of employment, levels of education, etc. many neighborhoods in PG county and Silver Spring are much more aligned with middle class than Bethesda, Chevy Chase, or NW DC. Saying "the schools are a non-starter" is fine--just know that having the means to buy in a good school district that doesn't have a horrible commute is in itself a luxury.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The vast majority of families living in expensive DC, Bethesda, Chevy Chase or Arlington neighborhoods and complaining about cost of living, could move to Silver Spring, or PG County, or Burke and continue to work at the same jobs, and have the same income.

The PP was right. Short commutes, high scoring public schools, "walkable communities", these are luxuries. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have them, but they're expensive luxuries. If you're paying for them, and not making major sacrifices elsewhere, you probably aren't middle class.

Honestly that was my thought as well. If you look at housing prices, median income levels, types of employment, levels of education, etc. many neighborhoods in PG county and Silver Spring are much more aligned with middle class than Bethesda, Chevy Chase, or NW DC. Saying "the schools are a non-starter" is fine--just know that [/b]having the means to buy in a good school district that doesn't have a horrible commute is in itself a luxury[b].

I think that's incredibly depressing, although accurate for this area. Luxuries should be things like affording a cleaning service, driving a Lexus, taking a vacation to Europe every summer, owning a beach house, etc. Being able to send your kids to a good school (not necessarily a 10 on great schools, but one with decent test scores and not a high percentage of ESOL students) and living within 30 minutes of your job shouldn't be just for the upper middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nothing ordinary about making north of $200K, which puts one in the top 5% of the country. How is that "middle"? And please don't say "250K doesn't get you very far in NW DC, Chevy Chase and Bethesda" - living in an expensive area is a choice. When I lived in NYC, I remember wealthy professionals in Manhattan saying these incomes are "barely getting by" - as if choosing to live in Manhattan isn't itself a luxury.

http://mic.com/articles/64095/what-we-get-wrong-when-we-define-the-middle-class

Unfortunately for you, OP, congressional Democrats about 10 years ago very clearly defined $250,000 as "middle class" as part of very high-profile debates over curtailing the Alternative Minimum Tax.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/07/AR2007060702146.html

"Rep. Richard E. Neal (D-Mass.), chairman of the House subcommittee with primary responsibility for the AMT, said that option would also lower AMT bills for families making $250,000 to $500,000.

"'There is consensus to make sure that we have some responsible tax policy that will also treat taxpayers fairly. No one ever expected to be caught in the AMT making 75 grand,' said Rep. Xavier Becerra (D-Calif.), a Ways and Means Committee member whose Los Angeles district is populated by working poor. 'We're trying to come up with a fix that does right by the great majority of Americans who fall into the middle class.'"

So, please, save your disdain and class warfare rhetoric for the truly wealthy. We have a lot more in common with you: We pay mortgages, child care, earn our income from salaries, not income, and have debts.

Ultimately, the fact is this "middle class" you're complaining about pay far more taxes than either you OR the wealthy. You should thank us for the tax burdens we bear so you don't have to.

[Anonymous]

Nope wrong again.

No such thing as expensive amenities.
Those are luxuries which are implied that are expensive like a car, cleaning service,etc.

Walkable communities is an amenity since its a feature that increases attractiveness or value to real estate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your use of luxuries is incorrect.

I live in Arlington for the "amenities" which you stated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the choice argument only works if these families could move to lower cost of living areas and still make that much. That usually isn't the case.

The vast majority of families living in expensive DC, Bethesda, Chevy Chase or Arlington neighborhoods and complaining about cost of living, could move to Silver Spring, or PG County, or Burke and continue to work at the same jobs, and have the same income.

The PP was right. Short commutes, high scoring public schools, "walkable communities", these are luxuries. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have them, but they're expensive luxuries. If you're paying for them, and not making major sacrifices elsewhere, you probably aren't middle class.

Expensive amenities are luxuries. There's nothing wrong with having them, but you have to recognize that having them means that there are other luxuries you won't have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing ordinary about making north of $200K, which puts one in the top 5% of the country. How is that "middle"? And please don't say "250K doesn't get you very far in NW DC, Chevy Chase and Bethesda" - living in an expensive area is a choice. When I lived in NYC, I remember wealthy professionals in Manhattan saying these incomes are "barely getting by" - as if choosing to live in Manhattan isn't itself a luxury.

http://mic.com/articles/64095/what-we-get-wrong-when-we-define-the-middle-class

Unfortunately for you, OP, congressional Democrats about 10 years ago very clearly defined $250,000 as "middle class" as part of very high-profile debates over curtailing the Alternative Minimum Tax.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/07/AR2007060702146.html

"Rep. Richard E. Neal (D-Mass.), chairman of the House subcommittee with primary responsibility for the AMT, said that option would also lower AMT bills for families making $250,000 to $500,000.

"'There is consensus to make sure that we have some responsible tax policy that will also treat taxpayers fairly. No one ever expected to be caught in the AMT making 75 grand,' said Rep. Xavier Becerra (D-Calif.), a Ways and Means Committee member whose Los Angeles district is populated by working poor. 'We're trying to come up with a fix that does right by the great majority of Americans who fall into the middle class.'"

So, please, save your disdain and class warfare rhetoric for the truly wealthy. We have a lot more in common with you: We pay mortgages, child care, earn our income from salaries, not income, and have debts.

Ultimately, the fact is this "middle class" you're complaining about pay far more taxes than either you OR the wealthy. You should thank us for the tax burdens we bear so you don't have to.

Not surprising that members of Congress decided to set the "not middle class" threshold to be higher than their own incomes. Figures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The vast majority of families living in expensive DC, Bethesda, Chevy Chase or Arlington neighborhoods and complaining about cost of living, could move to Silver Spring, or PG County, or Burke and continue to work at the same jobs, and have the same income.

The PP was right. Short commutes, high scoring public schools, "walkable communities", these are luxuries. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have them, but they're expensive luxuries. If you're paying for them, and not making major sacrifices elsewhere, you probably aren't middle class.

Honestly that was my thought as well. If you look at housing prices, median income levels, types of employment, levels of education, etc. many neighborhoods in PG county and Silver Spring are much more aligned with middle class than Bethesda, Chevy Chase, or NW DC. Saying "the schools are a non-starter" is fine--just know that [/b]having the means to buy in a good school district that doesn't have a horrible commute is in itself a luxury[b].

I think that's incredibly depressing, although accurate for this area. Luxuries should be things like affording a cleaning service, driving a Lexus, taking a vacation to Europe every summer, owning a beach house, etc. Being able to send your kids to a good school (not necessarily a 10 on great schools, but one with decent test scores and not a high percentage of ESOL students) and living within 30 minutes of your job shouldn't be just for the upper middle class.

I agree with you 100%. I grew up in a mid-sized town and "luxuries" like good schools and decent commutes were normal amenities for the middle class. There are benefits to living in a place like DC, for example a lot of jobs and exposure to different cultures, but people in the middle class here do not live as well as people in the middle class in other, less expensive areas.