How to fix our crisis

[Anonymous]

Institute ability and interest based tracking systems starting in early elementary school....these groupings are fluid and students may move into higher or lower level classes based upon performance and interests. Teachers cannot be expected to teach all levels and all subjects at once.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.

If the point is to strengthen critical thinking, then why not teach logic & stats instead of calculus?

Bingo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.

If the point is to strengthen critical thinking, then why not teach logic & stats instead of calculus?

We also have to prepare students for careers in stem, and most stem programs will not want to take you if you have no exposure to calculus. Calculus has the advantage of also teaching critical thinking; it’s not like logic is more critical thinking than calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop teaching so many courses. We could consolidate many ap English and history courses to a series of Humanities courses- literally call them Humanities 1, 2, and 3. Make them rigorous general education courses on US and global history, English Literature, and potentially add in some philosophy/sociology in the later coursework. Increase and normalize the “fast track” where Algebra 1 is taken in 8th grade across the country; then, by senior year have students choose between a project-based stats course or calc.

Stop making students take every class under the sun for elite colleges and have them tested across these two courses: Humanities and Math to free up space for whatever electives they want. If you wanna take Humanities, Calc 3, Physics, Bio, and Chem with a language, do it. If you wanna take Humanities, Stats, Latin, Advanced European history, do it. No reason why we have to take so many classes across the spectrum that we don’t care about.

Because not everyone is ready for Algebra I in 8th grade.

I watched this unfold with my oldest in HoCo (at a MS in the Top 25%). Someone decided in 6th grade that everyone needed to be at least 1 grade level ahead in math. So they eliminated the 6th grade math courses and put all those kids in 7th grade math. Well, for my kid, it worked out. They have a talent for math, but have learning issues (anxiety, reading issues and ADHD) so had never tested into advanced math. After a D on first test (highest score in class), they went on to get an A that year and excel. However, the first 6 weeks of math were HELL for many many students, who simply were not ready for skipping a year of math at the 6/7th grade level---there is a reason they were ON GRADE LEVEL. It was a nightmare for on friends kid. Parents and kid went thru hell trying to do the homework, study and the stress was not needed. After 6 weeks, that parent along with others finally convinced the school to put some kids back into 6th grade math. That friend's kid got a B+ in math that year. And you know what, that kid went on to be a journalism major, and started working in sports journalism immediately upon graduation from a 4 year college and has continued to find great jobs to advance their career. They are happy, just not a STEM oriented kid. But that first 6-8 weeks of MS was an unnecessary hell and made the transition difficult (and killed the kids already fragile self esteem about math---they already felt they were not good at math---it's HoCo, everyone is advanced it seems. )

Parents need to stop teaching their kids that being bad at math should personally affect them. Way too much societal clearance that being trash at math is normal and valid. People speak about being bad at math like they’re being tortured-no, you struggle with critical thinking and don’t like being challenged. So many people “like math when I get it”

DP. Are you (or your kid) "trash" at reading Shakespeare? If so, I guess you don't like being challenged. Right?

Nope. My kid is thinking of double majoring in philosophy and math. Not everyone has to make excuses for their defeatist attitudes with being bad at things. You practice and you can get better at any subject.

You didn't respond to the question about Shakespeare. How many plays/sonnets/acts have you (or your kid) memorized?

Memorized? None. I can recite the scene where Lady Macbeth pleads to be unsexed by memory, because it’s one of my favorite moments in literature. Plays I’ve read? Basically all of them, I went to a classical high school way back when conservatives didn’t dominate that scene. My kid has read quite a few for English class, and I haven’t heard any issues through them; he likes a midsummer night’s dream, so…like what else do you need me to say? I don’t see why you envision that people who can take math classes can’t like reading?

There were posters - don't know if you were one of them - complaining about Shakespeare and insisting boys "don't like" literature, etc. The point was simply that not every subject is essential to every student. Not sure why some of you keep insisting otherwise.

The evidence does clue into boys and later men not reading at all. This is a startling reality that is making the book industry appeal more to women, because men aren’t reading. Boys often like speculative fiction genres that are discounted in school. You see this divide all the time where guys are interested in Murikami, McCarthy, Pynchon, Foster-Wallace, and are made fun of for it.

Who is "making fun" of them? My boys read widely, to include the listed authors. No one has ever made fun of them. So strange.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.

If the point is to strengthen critical thinking, then why not teach logic & stats instead of calculus?

The same reason we don’t teach set theory or discrete math?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Institute ability and interest based tracking systems starting in early elementary school....these groupings are fluid and students may move into higher or lower level classes based upon performance and interests. Teachers cannot be expected to teach all levels and all subjects at once.

Bingo again. Flexible groupings have been discussed before on the FCPS forum and there are always people who insist it won't work. Meanwhile, that's what my school (also FCPS) used throughout my school years. It works beautifully and allows everyone to excel (or receive remedial help) as needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.

If the point is to strengthen critical thinking, then why not teach logic & stats instead of calculus?

We also have to prepare students for careers in stem, and most stem programs will not want to take you if you have no exposure to calculus. Calculus has the advantage of also teaching critical thinking; it’s not like logic is more critical thinking than calculus.

DP. We don't have to prepare students *who aren't interested in STEM* for careers in STEM. There is plenty of focus on STEM instruction already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.

If the point is to strengthen critical thinking, then why not teach logic & stats instead of calculus?

The same reason we don’t teach set theory or discrete math?

Huh? Totally different.
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop teaching so many courses. We could consolidate many ap English and history courses to a series of Humanities courses- literally call them Humanities 1, 2, and 3. Make them rigorous general education courses on US and global history, English Literature, and potentially add in some philosophy/sociology in the later coursework. Increase and normalize the “fast track” where Algebra 1 is taken in 8th grade across the country; then, by senior year have students choose between a project-based stats course or calc.

Stop making students take every class under the sun for elite colleges and have them tested across these two courses: Humanities and Math to free up space for whatever electives they want. If you wanna take Humanities, Calc 3, Physics, Bio, and Chem with a language, do it. If you wanna take Humanities, Stats, Latin, Advanced European history, do it. No reason why we have to take so many classes across the spectrum that we don’t care about.

Because not everyone is ready for Algebra I in 8th grade.

I watched this unfold with my oldest in HoCo (at a MS in the Top 25%). Someone decided in 6th grade that everyone needed to be at least 1 grade level ahead in math. So they eliminated the 6th grade math courses and put all those kids in 7th grade math. Well, for my kid, it worked out. They have a talent for math, but have learning issues (anxiety, reading issues and ADHD) so had never tested into advanced math. After a D on first test (highest score in class), they went on to get an A that year and excel. However, the first 6 weeks of math were HELL for many many students, who simply were not ready for skipping a year of math at the 6/7th grade level---there is a reason they were ON GRADE LEVEL. It was a nightmare for on friends kid. Parents and kid went thru hell trying to do the homework, study and the stress was not needed. After 6 weeks, that parent along with others finally convinced the school to put some kids back into 6th grade math. That friend's kid got a B+ in math that year. And you know what, that kid went on to be a journalism major, and started working in sports journalism immediately upon graduation from a 4 year college and has continued to find great jobs to advance their career. They are happy, just not a STEM oriented kid. But that first 6-8 weeks of MS was an unnecessary hell and made the transition difficult (and killed the kids already fragile self esteem about math---they already felt they were not good at math---it's HoCo, everyone is advanced it seems. )

Parents need to stop teaching their kids that being bad at math should personally affect them. Way too much societal clearance that being trash at math is normal and valid. People speak about being bad at math like they’re being tortured-no, you struggle with critical thinking and don’t like being challenged. So many people “like math when I get it”

DP. Are you (or your kid) "trash" at reading Shakespeare? If so, I guess you don't like being challenged. Right?

Nope. My kid is thinking of double majoring in philosophy and math. Not everyone has to make excuses for their defeatist attitudes with being bad at things. You practice and you can get better at any subject.

You didn't respond to the question about Shakespeare. How many plays/sonnets/acts have you (or your kid) memorized?

Memorized? None. I can recite the scene where Lady Macbeth pleads to be unsexed by memory, because it’s one of my favorite moments in literature. Plays I’ve read? Basically all of them, I went to a classical high school way back when conservatives didn’t dominate that scene. My kid has read quite a few for English class, and I haven’t heard any issues through them; he likes a midsummer night’s dream, so…like what else do you need me to say? I don’t see why you envision that people who can take math classes can’t like reading?

There were posters - don't know if you were one of them - complaining about Shakespeare and insisting boys "don't like" literature, etc. The point was simply that not every subject is essential to every student. Not sure why some of you keep insisting otherwise.

The evidence does clue into boys and later men not reading at all. This is a startling reality that is making the book industry appeal more to women, because men aren’t reading. Boys often like speculative fiction genres that are discounted in school. You see this divide all the time where guys are interested in Murikami, McCarthy, Pynchon, Foster-Wallace, and are made fun of for it.

Who is "making fun" of them? My boys read widely, to include the listed authors. No one has ever made fun of them. So strange.

I mean I can open this can of worms for you, but you don’t sound interested and will only care about your boys experience.
“Lit bro” was a term literally created on the internet to denounce these types of guys.
For example: https://thestrand.ca/bro-do-you-even-lit/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://thestrand.ca/bro-do-you-even-lit/
Or
https://gnocchiccodices.substack.com/p/consider-the-lit-bro" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://gnocchiccodices.substack.com/p/consider-the-lit-bro. This is a real thing in English departments, and people will try to push these guys out when they simply like a different flavor of English.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.

If the point is to strengthen critical thinking, then why not teach logic & stats instead of calculus?

The same reason we don’t teach set theory or discrete math?

Huh? Totally different.
DP

Set theory was once taught in elementary schools to get students to understand mathematical thought. It’s also taught across Europe very early. Discrete math is the backbone of CS and is actually taught in some CS high school courses. Not different at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.

If the point is to strengthen critical thinking, then why not teach logic & stats instead of calculus?

We also have to prepare students for careers in stem, and most stem programs will not want to take you if you have no exposure to calculus. Calculus has the advantage of also teaching critical thinking; it’s not like logic is more critical thinking than calculus.

DP. We don't have to prepare students *who aren't interested in STEM* for careers in STEM. There is plenty of focus on STEM instruction already.

Such as? Just having stem classes doesn’t mean there’s plenty of focus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Institute ability and interest based tracking systems starting in early elementary school....these groupings are fluid and students may move into higher or lower level classes based upon performance and interests. Teachers cannot be expected to teach all levels and all subjects at once.

Bingo again. Flexible groupings have been discussed before on the FCPS forum and there are always people who insist it won't work. Meanwhile, that's what my school (also FCPS) used throughout my school years. It works beautifully and allows everyone to excel (or receive remedial help) as needed.

But school districts think it’s racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop teaching so many courses. We could consolidate many ap English and history courses to a series of Humanities courses- literally call them Humanities 1, 2, and 3. Make them rigorous general education courses on US and global history, English Literature, and potentially add in some philosophy/sociology in the later coursework. Increase and normalize the “fast track” where Algebra 1 is taken in 8th grade across the country; then, by senior year have students choose between a project-based stats course or calc.

Stop making students take every class under the sun for elite colleges and have them tested across these two courses: Humanities and Math to free up space for whatever electives they want. If you wanna take Humanities, Calc 3, Physics, Bio, and Chem with a language, do it. If you wanna take Humanities, Stats, Latin, Advanced European history, do it. No reason why we have to take so many classes across the spectrum that we don’t care about.

Because not everyone is ready for Algebra I in 8th grade.

I watched this unfold with my oldest in HoCo (at a MS in the Top 25%). Someone decided in 6th grade that everyone needed to be at least 1 grade level ahead in math. So they eliminated the 6th grade math courses and put all those kids in 7th grade math. Well, for my kid, it worked out. They have a talent for math, but have learning issues (anxiety, reading issues and ADHD) so had never tested into advanced math. After a D on first test (highest score in class), they went on to get an A that year and excel. However, the first 6 weeks of math were HELL for many many students, who simply were not ready for skipping a year of math at the 6/7th grade level---there is a reason they were ON GRADE LEVEL. It was a nightmare for on friends kid. Parents and kid went thru hell trying to do the homework, study and the stress was not needed. After 6 weeks, that parent along with others finally convinced the school to put some kids back into 6th grade math. That friend's kid got a B+ in math that year. And you know what, that kid went on to be a journalism major, and started working in sports journalism immediately upon graduation from a 4 year college and has continued to find great jobs to advance their career. They are happy, just not a STEM oriented kid. But that first 6-8 weeks of MS was an unnecessary hell and made the transition difficult (and killed the kids already fragile self esteem about math---they already felt they were not good at math---it's HoCo, everyone is advanced it seems. )

Parents need to stop teaching their kids that being bad at math should personally affect them. Way too much societal clearance that being trash at math is normal and valid. People speak about being bad at math like they’re being tortured-no, you struggle with critical thinking and don’t like being challenged. So many people “like math when I get it”

DP. Are you (or your kid) "trash" at reading Shakespeare? If so, I guess you don't like being challenged. Right?

Nope. My kid is thinking of double majoring in philosophy and math. Not everyone has to make excuses for their defeatist attitudes with being bad at things. You practice and you can get better at any subject.

You didn't respond to the question about Shakespeare. How many plays/sonnets/acts have you (or your kid) memorized?

Memorized? None. I can recite the scene where Lady Macbeth pleads to be unsexed by memory, because it’s one of my favorite moments in literature. Plays I’ve read? Basically all of them, I went to a classical high school way back when conservatives didn’t dominate that scene. My kid has read quite a few for English class, and I haven’t heard any issues through them; he likes a midsummer night’s dream, so…like what else do you need me to say? I don’t see why you envision that people who can take math classes can’t like reading?

There were posters - don't know if you were one of them - complaining about Shakespeare and insisting boys "don't like" literature, etc. The point was simply that not every subject is essential to every student. Not sure why some of you keep insisting otherwise.

The evidence does clue into boys and later men not reading at all. This is a startling reality that is making the book industry appeal more to women, because men aren’t reading. Boys often like speculative fiction genres that are discounted in school. You see this divide all the time where guys are interested in Murikami, McCarthy, Pynchon, Foster-Wallace, and are made fun of for it.

Who is "making fun" of them? My boys read widely, to include the listed authors. No one has ever made fun of them. So strange.

I mean I can open this can of worms for you, but you don’t sound interested and will only care about your boys experience.
“Lit bro” was a term literally created on the internet to denounce these types of guys.
For example: https://thestrand.ca/bro-do-you-even-lit/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://thestrand.ca/bro-do-you-even-lit/
Or
https://gnocchiccodices.substack.com/p/consider-the-lit-bro" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://gnocchiccodices.substack.com/p/consider-the-lit-bro. This is a real thing in English departments, and people will try to push these guys out when they simply like a different flavor of English.

+1. There’s an amazing New York Times article on this topic. Men and boys are not reading and have all but left the field of English. The social reasons are complex and interesting, and include issues like these.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Institute ability and interest based tracking systems starting in early elementary school....these groupings are fluid and students may move into higher or lower level classes based upon performance and interests. Teachers cannot be expected to teach all levels and all subjects at once.

Bingo again. Flexible groupings have been discussed before on the FCPS forum and there are always people who insist it won't work. Meanwhile, that's what my school (also FCPS) used throughout my school years. It works beautifully and allows everyone to excel (or receive remedial help) as needed.

But school districts think it’s racist.

Maybe so. But there is no path back to more rigorous curriculum that does not restore ability grouping. It’s just not possible because not all kids will ever be on the same level.

[Anonymous]

My son has always loved reading. He wishes he had the money to buy the books in a series he likes since they have very few of them at the library.