How to fix our crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.

If the point is to strengthen critical thinking, then why not teach logic & stats instead of calculus?

We also have to prepare students for careers in stem, and most stem programs will not want to take you if you have no exposure to calculus. Calculus has the advantage of also teaching critical thinking; it’s not like logic is more critical thinking than calculus.

The question is just whether we should require calculus of all high school students as a condition for graduating. No one is suggesting eliminating calculus. Obviously there have always and will always be both students who want to pursue higher level math and STEM fields, and also demand for students who go this route.

But there are people who seem to think STEM is the only career path worth pursuing, that the key to fixing our education system is increasing the focus on math in particular and pushing all students to pursue high level math and science in high school. This group is also consistently dismissive of the value of non-STEM general ed subjects, including humanities subjects like history and literature as well as practical skills like public speaking and critical news analysis.

The obvious solution to this debate is that we need to rethink what general education requirements we should expect of all students. My proposal? End high school at age 16 or 10th grade. Combine middle and high school and create a curriculum for kids age 10-16 that covers the general ed basics including math through algebra, a broad humanities basis, practical skills including communications (written and oral), personal finance, and basic data analysis, plus exposure to arts and culture.

Then offer a publicly-funded tracked education system. Kids who want to pursue college would take a two year pre-college course preparing them for their chosen track (STEM or humanities, some schools could even offer combined programs for kids interested in fields that cross-over). This would replace the current AP system and the exams kids took at the end of this two-year program would replace AP and college placement exams, and possibly also the SAT.

Students who are not interested in pursuing 6 or more years of additional education could choose from among vocational programs. These could range from 6 months to 2 years depending on the program. Want to start working at 17 doing something like HVAC repair? Here's a 6 moth training program and an apprenticeship program. Want more of an office-based job like accounting or sales? Here's a 2 year program with classes taught by current and former practitioners that will prepare you for entry level jobs in these fields at age 18. These vocational programs could also be made available to adult mid-career changers who discovered they aren't suited to their prior job or whose jobs have been made obsolete due to technological or cultural changes. These vocational programs should be publicly funded and free to anyone wiling to do the work -- the goal is to have a trained workforce capable of filling the myriad of jobs our economy requires, and not to burden these people with student loans or make it impossible for them to enter fields in which they could excel because they can't afford it. Offering these programs to 16-18 year olds would also enable people to complete their vocational training earlier and encourage economic independence, freeing their parents to retire or downsize at an earlier age.

So no, not everyone needs to take calculus. We need to rethink education in a way that meets the needs of society -- of employers and workers and students and schools. Not everyone needs or wants to attend college. Not everyone should go into STEM. But every 16 year old should be able to do basic algebra, have a decent grasp of history, be able to competently read a book and write a two page paper explaining it's major themes, explain simple concepts to a group of people, send a grammatically correct email with a professional tone, understand how to read and interpret news sources and recognize bias in news, follow basic logic, and have a baseline appreciation for music, art, and literature. Beyond that... the world's your oyster. But everyone's oyster can be a little different.

Awesome suggestion

[Anonymous]

We should just steal from European education systems with better outcomes. We need rigorous exams that are the floor for admission. Once you surpass that score, your application goes into a blind, holistic review. Everyone is qualified and we still bring in the diversity we want. Standardize years 9 and 10 for admission into IB programs or AP track college success preparation. Everyone who doesn’t go on a College track graduates out and either goes into a vocational program or figures something out with 2 years of cushion under their parents household

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The people pushing calculus for non-STEM majors no doubt have zero ability to hold a conversation about politics, art, or literature - among other things. No one is sitting around discussing calculus (or using it, for that matter), unless it's part of their career.

This is such a brain dead comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We should just steal from European education systems with better outcomes. We need rigorous exams that are the floor for admission. Once you surpass that score, your application goes into a blind, holistic review. Everyone is qualified and we still bring in the diversity we want. Standardize years 9 and 10 for admission into IB programs or AP track college success preparation. Everyone who doesn’t go on a College track graduates out and either goes into a vocational program or figures something out with 2 years of cushion under their parents household

Agree 100 percent

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We should just steal from European education systems with better outcomes. We need rigorous exams that are the floor for admission. Once you surpass that score, your application goes into a blind, holistic review. Everyone is qualified and we still bring in the diversity we want. Standardize years 9 and 10 for admission into IB programs or AP track college success preparation. Everyone who doesn’t go on a College track graduates out and either goes into a vocational program or figures something out with 2 years of cushion under their parents household

This would fix so many of our issues- also National cell phone ban.

[Anonymous]

I must be missing something. Both my spouse and I took calculus in high school and have never used it. Both educated (ivy undergrad and grad if that even matters) I don't think calculus is useful for our kids but they will jump through the hoops if they have to, but I don't for once think calculus is what makes them better educated, instead it's their humanities courses in English lang and lit and history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I must be missing something. Both my spouse and I took calculus in high school and have never used it. Both educated (ivy undergrad and grad if that even matters) I don't think calculus is useful for our kids but they will jump through the hoops if they have to, but I don't for once think calculus is what makes them better educated, instead it's their humanities courses in English lang and lit and history.

It’s concerning that you are Ivy-educated and think math doesn’t make you better educated. It’s great to be able to read Chaucer and analyze primary sources, but that is not the end-all, be-all of education. I’ve never used the majority of things I’ve learned, it’s about respecting education and preparing students with the tools to do anything they put their minds to- plenty of fields utilize calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Making calculus a graduation requirement and not guaranteeing a high school diploma would fix a ton of our issues

How ridiculous. Unless one is going into a STEM field, calculus is completely unnecessary - and useless.

Calculus is totally ridiculous. I don’t think diplomas are guaranteed. I thought they were easy to get too until I had a kid who has a hard time with math. He will graduate (cause I will see so and pay as many tutors as I need) but it won’t be easy at all.

[Anonymous]

Which fields utilize Calculus? Obviously, if you're in a math heavy field or working for NASA you're using Calculus, but which non-STEM careers?

Like I said, our kids will take Calculus but it's a stupid requirement for their college applications.

Being educated in the humanities in not limited to discussing Chaucer - it's basic writing and communication skills.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I must be missing something. Both my spouse and I took calculus in high school and have never used it. Both educated (ivy undergrad and grad if that even matters) I don't think calculus is useful for our kids but they will jump through the hoops if they have to, but I don't for once think calculus is what makes them better educated, instead it's their humanities courses in English lang and lit and history.

It’s concerning that you are Ivy-educated and think math doesn’t make you better educated. It’s great to be able to read Chaucer and analyze primary sources, but that is not the end-all, be-all of education. I’ve never used the majority of things I’ve learned, it’s about respecting education and preparing students with the tools to do anything they put their minds to- plenty of fields utilize calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Making calculus a graduation requirement and not guaranteeing a high school diploma would fix a ton of our issues

How ridiculous. Unless one is going into a STEM field, calculus is completely unnecessary - and useless.

Calculus is totally ridiculous. I don’t think diplomas are guaranteed. I thought they were easy to get too until I had a kid who has a hard time with math. He will graduate (cause I will see so and pay as many tutors as I need) but it won’t be easy at all.

Diplomas are guaranteed. The worst neighborhoods in the US have 90%+graduation rates

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Which fields utilize Calculus? Obviously, if you're in a math heavy field or working for NASA you're using Calculus, but which non-STEM careers?

Like I said, our kids will take Calculus but it's a stupid requirement for their college applications.

Being educated in the humanities in not limited to discussing Chaucer - it's basic writing and communication skills.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I must be missing something. Both my spouse and I took calculus in high school and have never used it. Both educated (ivy undergrad and grad if that even matters) I don't think calculus is useful for our kids but they will jump through the hoops if they have to, but I don't for once think calculus is what makes them better educated, instead it's their humanities courses in English lang and lit and history.

It’s concerning that you are Ivy-educated and think math doesn’t make you better educated. It’s great to be able to read Chaucer and analyze primary sources, but that is not the end-all, be-all of education. I’ve never used the majority of things I’ve learned, it’s about respecting education and preparing students with the tools to do anything they put their minds to- plenty of fields utilize calculus.

Any field utilizing statistics, chemistry, most financial analytics jobs worth their salt. A lot of people obviously are using computers to do the calculus, but I don’t think that makes it useless. I know a geologist who uses calculus everyday for his job. Sure, a publishing assistant isn’t going to use calculus, but that isn’t a career that’s highly sought after, nor is it very lucrative.

[Anonymous]

Yes, and geology is also not a popular field either...

Obviously, calculus is helpful for those fields. We're not arguing that no one should take calculus. Just that it shouldn't break a requirement for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I must be missing something. Both my spouse and I took calculus in high school and have never used it. Both educated (ivy undergrad and grad if that even matters) I don't think calculus is useful for our kids but they will jump through the hoops if they have to, but I don't for once think calculus is what makes them better educated, instead it's their humanities courses in English lang and lit and history.

Neil deGrasse Tyson has a message for anyone who's ever looked at the board during math class and thought, "There's no way I'm going to use this information outside of school." While it's true that you may never again be asked to solve for x or calculate when trains will collide based on when they left the station, just learning how to approach basic math- and science-related topics helps your brain become a better problem solver in general. In the video above, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson explains why it's so important for even the most math-phobic among us to keep an open mind during Calculus class:

"...the act of learning how to do the math establishes a new kind of brain wiring in your mind, a kind of problem solving brain wiring. So it’s not about what you learn, it’s about what methods, tools, and tactics you have to develop in order to solve the problem that you may never see again for the rest of your life. But you will see other problems where these methods and tools will become immensely valuable to you.”

[Anonymous]

Was he talking about Calculus?

No one is saying that math shouldn't be a core subject in high school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I must be missing something. Both my spouse and I took calculus in high school and have never used it. Both educated (ivy undergrad and grad if that even matters) I don't think calculus is useful for our kids but they will jump through the hoops if they have to, but I don't for once think calculus is what makes them better educated, instead it's their humanities courses in English lang and lit and history.

Neil deGrasse Tyson has a message for anyone who's ever looked at the board during math class and thought, "There's no way I'm going to use this information outside of school." While it's true that you may never again be asked to solve for x or calculate when trains will collide based on when they left the station, just learning how to approach basic math- and science-related topics helps your brain become a better problem solver in general. In the video above, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson explains why it's so important for even the most math-phobic among us to keep an open mind during Calculus class:

"...the act of learning how to do the math establishes a new kind of brain wiring in your mind, a kind of problem solving brain wiring. So it’s not about what you learn, it’s about what methods, tools, and tactics you have to develop in order to solve the problem that you may never see again for the rest of your life. But you will see other problems where these methods and tools will become immensely valuable to you.”

[Anonymous]

Read “Why Knowledge Matters” by E.D. Hirsch.