Whoopi says the Holocaust was not about race

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism is not a race, it is an ethnicity that does, for some, incorporate a blood lineage. But, there are others that practice Judaism, who are not genetically linked to these ethnic groups- and Jews can be just about any race. However, the Jews in Europe were murdered as they were deemed to be an inferior race by the Nazis, so it was about Hitler's misconception of race, and it was about his determination to create a master race. So it was racial.

I'm bumping this for the poster who said they grew up in the South and seems to genuinely want to understand the debate, because this is the best description I've seen in the entire thread.

With that said, this is a nuanced argument. It requires a pretty specific understanding of Hitler's motivations as well as the degree to which "race" has been understood/deployed across different periods of time.

Jews are not a race by the current, North American, definition of race. They were a race by Hitlers understanding and rhetoric. To understand that, you need to understand that the meaning of the word race has shifted across time and geography, and remains a social construct.

I'm not sure I'm ready to come down on Goldberg too hard for not having that nuanced understanding.

Thank you both for this.

I am always humbled by how much I have to learn, even when I think I walk around fairly educated and aware (and actively try to always be so.) But this thread is opening my eyes further, on an issue I thought I was pretty clear on!!

[Anonymous]

This has been quite an education. I’m black and have found the intersections under the Jewish umbrella fascinating..I stay clear of calling it one thing or another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism is not a race, it is an ethnicity that does, for some, incorporate a blood lineage. But, there are others that practice Judaism, who are not genetically linked to these ethnic groups- and Jews can be just about any race. However, the Jews in Europe were murdered as they were deemed to be an inferior race by the Nazis, so it was about Hitler's misconception of race, and it was about his determination to create a master race. So it was racial.

I'm bumping this for the poster who said they grew up in the South and seems to genuinely want to understand the debate, because this is the best description I've seen in the entire thread.

With that said, this is a nuanced argument. It requires a pretty specific understanding of Hitler's motivations as well as the degree to which "race" has been understood/deployed across different periods of time.

Jews are not a race by the current, North American, definition of race. They were a race by Hitlers understanding and rhetoric. To understand that, you need to understand that the meaning of the word race has shifted across time and geography, and remains a social construct.

I'm not sure I'm ready to come down on Goldberg too hard for not having that nuanced understanding.

South poster here. This helps. So why are people coming down on Whoopi? If this what most people understand?

And do Jews want to be considered white or not? The ones that look white I mean? Sorry if I’m not articulating that correctly? I understand that race is a social construct and therefore that’s why I thought the Holocaust was about religion because I thought being Jewish was a religion. Again, I hadn’t studied it much.

[Anonymous]

^Holocaust was about religion and creating the master aryan race I meant to say.

[Anonymous]

Jews are white, unless they’re black jews like in some areas of Africa (Ethiopia has a large community I think?). But Jews are not a race, they’re an ethnicity. Hitler thought they were a race— and an inferior one—that needed to be eliminated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^Holocaust was about religion and creating the master aryan race I meant to say.

The Holocaust wasn't about religion at all. It was about finding a scapegoat to the problems Germany was having at the time. Religion had nothing to do with it. Hitler came up with the notion of a master race and declared the Jews inferior to it and there for needed to be exterminated, like vermin. There is no such as a Jewish "race" Jews can be black white brown whatever--and yes Judaism has ethnicity within it, but it's a religion, people. Just like Christianity, Muslim, Buddhism...If you think it's a race you need to go back to history class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism is not a race, it is an ethnicity that does, for some, incorporate a blood lineage. But, there are others that practice Judaism, who are not genetically linked to these ethnic groups- and Jews can be just about any race. However, the Jews in Europe were murdered as they were deemed to be an inferior race by the Nazis, so it was about Hitler's misconception of race, and it was about his determination to create a master race. So it was racial.

I'm bumping this for the poster who said they grew up in the South and seems to genuinely want to understand the debate, because this is the best description I've seen in the entire thread.

With that said, this is a nuanced argument. It requires a pretty specific understanding of Hitler's motivations as well as the degree to which "race" has been understood/deployed across different periods of time.

Jews are not a race by the current, North American, definition of race. They were a race by Hitlers understanding and rhetoric. To understand that, you need to understand that the meaning of the word race has shifted across time and geography, and remains a social construct.

I'm not sure I'm ready to come down on Goldberg too hard for not having that nuanced understanding.

South poster here. This helps. So why are people coming down on Whoopi? If this what most people understand?

And do Jews want to be considered white or not? The ones that look white I mean? Sorry if I’m not articulating that correctly? I understand that race is a social construct and therefore that’s why I thought the Holocaust was about religion because I thought being Jewish was a religion. Again, I hadn’t studied it much.

Well, now we are getting into really tricky territory.

There are Jews who are genetically linked to one another (ethnicity) and most of the Jews here in the United States are from one specific sub-group (Eastern European, so Ashkenazi). There are existing tensions within the Jewish community stemming from Jews of color (African American, Sephardic, Ethiopian) feeling like there's no room for them in the American understanding of Judaism, and facing subtle and not-subtle racism from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jewish community in the United States.* So the backlash was perceived by some as being led by the dominant Jewish group (white presenting Ashkenazis) against a Black woman who has publicly said that she identifies as Jewish.

* Here we have to take a small detour and explain that there are a lot of flavors of Judaism in the United States, and the problems with race within those "flavors" are going to be more or less of an issue depending on a bunch of factors.

As to your question about whether Jews want to be considered white or not? Depends on the Jew, but most young Ashkenazis as this point recognize that they benefit from white privilege even if they are impacted by Antisemitism.

[Anonymous]

I didn’t know her real name was Caryn Johnson — she created stage name of Whoopi Goldberg:

https://nypost.com/2022/02/01/drop-the-goldberg-name-you-co-opted-whoopi-you-dont-deserve-it/

[Anonymous]

The main existing tension within the population is secure at Jews versus conservatives. Reform tries to please a lot and works well IMO. It handles interfaith marriages well too.

Of course, if you live in Israel you just are. Here you have to do Hebrew school, summer camps, etc. but Nyc, MoCo/DC and LA feels right at home. Maybe enclaves all over as well.

[Anonymous]

I understand the point she was making.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jews are white, unless they’re black jews like in some areas of Africa (Ethiopia has a large community I think?). But Jews are not a race, they’re an ethnicity. Hitler thought they were a race— and an inferior one—that needed to be eliminated.

Maybe the word he used in German means something else entirely. Or even in Yiddish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jews are white, unless they’re black jews like in some areas of Africa (Ethiopia has a large community I think?). But Jews are not a race, they’re an ethnicity. Hitler thought they were a race— and an inferior one—that needed to be eliminated.

Maybe the word he used in German means something else entirely. Or even in Yiddish.

What word?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Holocaust was about religion and creating the master aryan race I meant to say.

The Holocaust wasn't about religion at all. It was about finding a scapegoat to the problems Germany was having at the time. Religion had nothing to do with it. Hitler came up with the notion of a master race and declared the Jews inferior to it and there for needed to be exterminated, like vermin. There is no such as a Jewish "race" Jews can be black white brown whatever--and yes Judaism has ethnicity within it, but it's a religion, people. Just like Christianity, Muslim, Buddhism...If you think it's a race you need to go back to history class.

Ok…so Holocaust wasn’t about religion. Now understood. There is no Jewish “race”, but Hitler thought there was and wanted to destroy it along with other groups he deemed inferior.

Are Jews that physically look white considered white? Are they “generally” ok with being grouped white people?

Not joking (but trying to take some heavy out of this since this is in the entertainment forum) is Jerry Seinfeld ok with being considered white?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Judaism is not a race, it is an ethnicity that does, for some, incorporate a blood lineage. But, there are others that practice Judaism, who are not genetically linked to these ethnic groups- and Jews can be just about any race. However, the Jews in Europe were murdered as they were deemed to be an inferior race by the Nazis, so it was about Hitler's misconception of race, and it was about his determination to create a master race. So it was racial.

I'm bumping this for the poster who said they grew up in the South and seems to genuinely want to understand the debate, because this is the best description I've seen in the entire thread.

With that said, this is a nuanced argument. It requires a pretty specific understanding of Hitler's motivations as well as the degree to which "race" has been understood/deployed across different periods of time.

Jews are not a race by the current, North American, definition of race. They were a race by Hitlers understanding and rhetoric. To understand that, you need to understand that the meaning of the word race has shifted across time and geography, and remains a social construct.

I'm not sure I'm ready to come down on Goldberg too hard for not having that nuanced understanding.

This.

Having someone suspended for two weeks because they don’t understand that “race” as Nazis use it is different than “race” as Americans use it is ridiculous. This is especially the case when American Jews have lobbied hard for Jews to be considered white and will come down hard on anyone who suggests otherwise. It’s solipsistic to expect everyone to be so well versed in American Jews’ preferences that we understand they don’t count as white when talking about Nazis’ motivations, but are to be considered white otherwise.

Way to find enemies among friends.

[Anonymous]

The View is mostly an open topic political show. Many ignorant and insulting statements are made on the show. She apologized and should not be suspended. Forgiveness is a key element to all religions.

And if she should be suspended or fired then so should Nick Cannon who said much worse.