what's with local pols opposing expanding 270 and 495?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's clear none of these people need to drive any significant distance to work. FWIW, I take metro, but DH has to drive (we live in MD, he works in NoVA) and the traffic is insane. IIRC the expansion of 495 really only went to the 270 interchange anyway, right?

Yes, that's a horrible drive. The question is, is the best solution for the state of Maryland to sign a secret contract with a for-profit company to widen the highway with toll lanes?

What’s your solution?

My solution is more and better public transportation options, better and safer walking/biking connections to public transportation, more remote work, more off-peak work hours, more incentives for people to use public transportation instead of driving by themselves, and (last but not least) adding housing close to existing transit, services, and jobs.

Explain how your “more and better public transportation” that is going to get this person from upper MoCo to NoVA?

There is no current plan for this anywhere. Nor is there funding. The HOT lanes would’ve been ready in 3 years. Your plan, which is actually just an idea because there is no current plan, wouldn’t see fruition in decades. What should this person do until then, move out of the county?

Continue with their current commute, work out a telework plan, work out an off-peak commuting plan, look for a different job, look for a different place to live.

It's ridiculous to say that we have to go with Larry Hogan's plan on grounds that he has refused to propose any other plan. It's also ridiculous to say that it would take decades to start running more buses (for example).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's clear none of these people need to drive any significant distance to work. FWIW, I take metro, but DH has to drive (we live in MD, he works in NoVA) and the traffic is insane. IIRC the expansion of 495 really only went to the 270 interchange anyway, right?

Yes, that's a horrible drive. The question is, is the best solution for the state of Maryland to sign a secret contract with a for-profit company to widen the highway with toll lanes?

What’s your solution?

My solution is more and better public transportation options, better and safer walking/biking connections to public transportation, more remote work, more off-peak work hours, more incentives for people to use public transportation instead of driving by themselves, and (last but not least) adding housing close to existing transit, services, and jobs.

Any public transport from MD around the beltway to VA is never going to happen- it just isn't. I don't really agree with the financing method for the expansion and would gladly pay a higher gas tax to finance it, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

More public transport would be good of course but no one is willing to pay. And I thought MARC is already limited because it uses the CSX tracks. Metro can barely maintain what it already has and none of the NIMBYs would support an additional line or expansion of the red line.

-The only alternative is to widen highways!
-No, there are lots of alternatives (including public transit) that will move people more efficiently and more cost-effectively.
-Nobody likes those alternatives. Therefore, the only alternative is to widen highways!

Sigh...

Yes, it's true that MARC is currently limited because it uses the CSX tracks. However, the state could propose to start building additional MARC track, which would allow additional MARC service. Larry Hogan has zero interest in that, though. All he's interested in is widening highways.

There are zero proposed serious alternatives right now to get people from MoCo to job centers in NoVA. Zero.

The choice right now is the HOT lanes or nothing for decades.

How about 2 reversible toll lanes? How about at least attempting to discuss what is supposed to happen at Exit 9 when the toll lanes stop? Could we consider HOV 2 so current carpoolers are encouraged to keep carpooling? It is not this plan or nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP again- and most people I know who commute from the 270 area to downtown DO already take MARC/Metro if they work somewhere where there is a nearby station. But when you get into two transfers and a bus to get to work, then it becomes an ineffective option.

And most people in the county don’t work in DC. Over 60% of residents both live and work in MoCo. Furthermore, the percentage leaving MoCo for work has steadily declined over the years, coinciding with the emergence of NoVA as a job center. During this time, median incomes in MoCo have stagnated while they have exploded in NoVA. The reasonable inference is that as high paying jobs moved to NoVA, MoCo people also moved to NoVA because the county and state have refused to provide supporting infrastructure due to the prevalence of NIMBYism that is against any and all change here, including infrastructure whether roads or transit (we need both). As a result the county is getting poorer and this is not sustainable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's clear none of these people need to drive any significant distance to work. FWIW, I take metro, but DH has to drive (we live in MD, he works in NoVA) and the traffic is insane. IIRC the expansion of 495 really only went to the 270 interchange anyway, right?

Yes, that's a horrible drive. The question is, is the best solution for the state of Maryland to sign a secret contract with a for-profit company to widen the highway with toll lanes?

What’s your solution?

My solution is more and better public transportation options, better and safer walking/biking connections to public transportation, more remote work, more off-peak work hours, more incentives for people to use public transportation instead of driving by themselves, and (last but not least) adding housing close to existing transit, services, and jobs.

Any public transport from MD around the beltway to VA is never going to happen- it just isn't. I don't really agree with the financing method for the expansion and would gladly pay a higher gas tax to finance it, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

More public transport would be good of course but no one is willing to pay. And I thought MARC is already limited because it uses the CSX tracks. Metro can barely maintain what it already has and none of the NIMBYs would support an additional line or expansion of the red line.

-The only alternative is to widen highways!
-No, there are lots of alternatives (including public transit) that will move people more efficiently and more cost-effectively.
-Nobody likes those alternatives. Therefore, the only alternative is to widen highways!

Sigh...

Yes, it's true that MARC is currently limited because it uses the CSX tracks. However, the state could propose to start building additional MARC track, which would allow additional MARC service. Larry Hogan has zero interest in that, though. All he's interested in is widening highways.

There are zero proposed serious alternatives right now to get people from MoCo to job centers in NoVA. Zero.

The choice right now is the HOT lanes or nothing for decades.

How about 2 reversible toll lanes? How about at least attempting to discuss what is supposed to happen at Exit 9 when the toll lanes stop? Could we consider HOV 2 so current carpoolers are encouraged to keep carpooling? It is not this plan or nothing.

These are your ideas. These are not serious alternatives under consideration. The people blocking the HOT lanes have nothing to provide to solve the problem except to say “we need more transit” which is not useful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP again- and most people I know who commute from the 270 area to downtown DO already take MARC/Metro if they work somewhere where there is a nearby station. But when you get into two transfers and a bus to get to work, then it becomes an ineffective option.

And most people in the county don’t work in DC. Over 60% of residents both live and work in MoCo. Furthermore, the percentage leaving MoCo for work has steadily declined over the years, coinciding with the emergence of NoVA as a job center. During this time, median incomes in MoCo have stagnated while they have exploded in NoVA. The reasonable inference is that as high paying jobs moved to NoVA, MoCo people also moved to NoVA because the county and state have refused to provide supporting infrastructure due to the prevalence of NIMBYism that is against any and all change here, including infrastructure whether roads or transit (we need both). As a result the county is getting poorer and this is not sustainable.

Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's clear none of these people need to drive any significant distance to work. FWIW, I take metro, but DH has to drive (we live in MD, he works in NoVA) and the traffic is insane. IIRC the expansion of 495 really only went to the 270 interchange anyway, right?

Yes, that's a horrible drive. The question is, is the best solution for the state of Maryland to sign a secret contract with a for-profit company to widen the highway with toll lanes?

What’s your solution?

My solution is more and better public transportation options, better and safer walking/biking connections to public transportation, more remote work, more off-peak work hours, more incentives for people to use public transportation instead of driving by themselves, and (last but not least) adding housing close to existing transit, services, and jobs.

Explain how your “more and better public transportation” that is going to get this person from upper MoCo to NoVA?

There is no current plan for this anywhere. Nor is there funding. The HOT lanes would’ve been ready in 3 years. Your plan, which is actually just an idea because there is no current plan, wouldn’t see fruition in decades. What should this person do until then, move out of the county?

Continue with their current commute, work out a telework plan, work out an off-peak commuting plan, look for a different job, look for a different place to live.

It's ridiculous to say that we have to go with Larry Hogan's plan on grounds that he has refused to propose any other plan. It's also ridiculous to say that it would take decades to start running more buses (for example).

You don’t have a credible alternative to Hogan’s plan. So it’s either his plan or no plan. I will go with the person that actually has a plan over the people without a plan thank you very much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's clear none of these people need to drive any significant distance to work. FWIW, I take metro, but DH has to drive (we live in MD, he works in NoVA) and the traffic is insane. IIRC the expansion of 495 really only went to the 270 interchange anyway, right?

Yes, that's a horrible drive. The question is, is the best solution for the state of Maryland to sign a secret contract with a for-profit company to widen the highway with toll lanes?

What’s your solution?

My solution is more and better public transportation options, better and safer walking/biking connections to public transportation, more remote work, more off-peak work hours, more incentives for people to use public transportation instead of driving by themselves, and (last but not least) adding housing close to existing transit, services, and jobs.

Any public transport from MD around the beltway to VA is never going to happen- it just isn't. I don't really agree with the financing method for the expansion and would gladly pay a higher gas tax to finance it, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

More public transport would be good of course but no one is willing to pay. And I thought MARC is already limited because it uses the CSX tracks. Metro can barely maintain what it already has and none of the NIMBYs would support an additional line or expansion of the red line.

-The only alternative is to widen highways!
-No, there are lots of alternatives (including public transit) that will move people more efficiently and more cost-effectively.
-Nobody likes those alternatives. Therefore, the only alternative is to widen highways!

Sigh...

Yes, it's true that MARC is currently limited because it uses the CSX tracks. However, the state could propose to start building additional MARC track, which would allow additional MARC service. Larry Hogan has zero interest in that, though. All he's interested in is widening highways.

It's money, pure and simple. There's an alternative way to fund the highway expansion without a large tax hike. That would not be the case for a new traintrack.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP again- and most people I know who commute from the 270 area to downtown DO already take MARC/Metro if they work somewhere where there is a nearby station. But when you get into two transfers and a bus to get to work, then it becomes an ineffective option.

And most people in the county don’t work in DC. Over 60% of residents both live and work in MoCo. Furthermore, the percentage leaving MoCo for work has steadily declined over the years, coinciding with the emergence of NoVA as a job center. During this time, median incomes in MoCo have stagnated while they have exploded in NoVA. The reasonable inference is that as high paying jobs moved to NoVA, MoCo people also moved to NoVA because the county and state have refused to provide supporting infrastructure due to the prevalence of NIMBYism that is against any and all change here, including infrastructure whether roads or transit (we need both). As a result the county is getting poorer and this is not sustainable.

A 20 dollar toll lane will change that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP again- and most people I know who commute from the 270 area to downtown DO already take MARC/Metro if they work somewhere where there is a nearby station. But when you get into two transfers and a bus to get to work, then it becomes an ineffective option.

And most people in the county don’t work in DC. Over 60% of residents both live and work in MoCo. Furthermore, the percentage leaving MoCo for work has steadily declined over the years, coinciding with the emergence of NoVA as a job center. During this time, median incomes in MoCo have stagnated while they have exploded in NoVA. The reasonable inference is that as high paying jobs moved to NoVA, MoCo people also moved to NoVA because the county and state have refused to provide supporting infrastructure due to the prevalence of NIMBYism that is against any and all change here, including infrastructure whether roads or transit (we need both). As a result the county is getting poorer and this is not sustainable.

A 20 dollar toll lane will change that?

So you support the status quo to do nothing. Fantastic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

How about 2 reversible toll lanes? How about at least attempting to discuss what is supposed to happen at Exit 9 when the toll lanes stop? Could we consider HOV 2 so current carpoolers are encouraged to keep carpooling? It is not this plan or nothing.

These are your ideas. These are not serious alternatives under consideration. The people blocking the HOT lanes have nothing to provide to solve the problem except to say “we need more transit” which is not useful.

Because the Hogan administration has refused to propose them.

It's as though my family said, "Let's have lasagna for dinner," and I said, "No, we're having chicken and dumplings for dinner," and I went to the store and bought only the ingredients for chicken and dumplings, and I came home, and my family said, "Let's have lasagna for dinner," and I said, "No, lasagna for dinner is not a serious alternative, the only serious alternative for dinner is chicken and dumplings."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP again- and most people I know who commute from the 270 area to downtown DO already take MARC/Metro if they work somewhere where there is a nearby station. But when you get into two transfers and a bus to get to work, then it becomes an ineffective option.

And most people in the county don’t work in DC. Over 60% of residents both live and work in MoCo. Furthermore, the percentage leaving MoCo for work has steadily declined over the years, coinciding with the emergence of NoVA as a job center. During this time, median incomes in MoCo have stagnated while they have exploded in NoVA. The reasonable inference is that as high paying jobs moved to NoVA, MoCo people also moved to NoVA because the county and state have refused to provide supporting infrastructure due to the prevalence of NIMBYism that is against any and all change here, including infrastructure whether roads or transit (we need both). As a result the county is getting poorer and this is not sustainable.

Why?

Resilience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How about 2 reversible toll lanes? How about at least attempting to discuss what is supposed to happen at Exit 9 when the toll lanes stop? Could we consider HOV 2 so current carpoolers are encouraged to keep carpooling? It is not this plan or nothing.

These are your ideas. These are not serious alternatives under consideration. The people blocking the HOT lanes have nothing to provide to solve the problem except to say “we need more transit” which is not useful.

Because the Hogan administration has refused to propose them.

It's as though my family said, "Let's have lasagna for dinner," and I said, "No, we're having chicken and dumplings for dinner," and I went to the store and bought only the ingredients for chicken and dumplings, and I came home, and my family said, "Let's have lasagna for dinner," and I said, "No, lasagna for dinner is not a serious alternative, the only serious alternative for dinner is chicken and dumplings."
It’s all Hogan, Hogan, Hogan with you. Sounds like you are taking county residents hostage because you have a problem with the political affiliation of the governor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You don’t have a credible alternative to Hogan’s plan. So it’s either his plan or no plan. I will go with the person that actually has a plan over the people without a plan thank you very much.

Really? I propose scrapping the bad plan and working to come up with a different, better plan, over going with the bad plan on the basis that the only current plan is the bad plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP again- and most people I know who commute from the 270 area to downtown DO already take MARC/Metro if they work somewhere where there is a nearby station. But when you get into two transfers and a bus to get to work, then it becomes an ineffective option.

And most people in the county don’t work in DC. Over 60% of residents both live and work in MoCo. Furthermore, the percentage leaving MoCo for work has steadily declined over the years, coinciding with the emergence of NoVA as a job center. During this time, median incomes in MoCo have stagnated while they have exploded in NoVA. The reasonable inference is that as high paying jobs moved to NoVA, MoCo people also moved to NoVA because the county and state have refused to provide supporting infrastructure due to the prevalence of NIMBYism that is against any and all change here, including infrastructure whether roads or transit (we need both). As a result the county is getting poorer and this is not sustainable.

A 20 dollar toll lane will change that?

MD needs to spring for a bridge, and that will never happen.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:^^^and also there's that whole climate change thing...

There’s also the whole electric car thing.

Electric cars don't run on unicorn dust. Unicorn dust also doesn't build roads or power road maintenance. If you've been thinking that electric cars will solve the climate change problem, you should stop thinking that.

Your response proves you are an idiot child. You clearly know nothing about electric cars, nor about the future of distributed generation, which is funny because you pretend to be a know it all.

Distributed generation is great, but electric cars still aren't going to solve the climate change problem.

What do you think the climate change problem is exactly? You don’t know what the grid emissions are nor do you seem to have a clue what the equivalent GHG emissions are for an electric car over current ICE tech. Before you think you want to engage on an issue that you think you know something, you better think again. Nothing worse than the aggressively ignorant.

Are GHG emissions lower for electric cars than internal-combustion engines? Sure. But GHG emissions for other modes of transportation are lower still. Electric cars aren't going to solve the climate change problem.

Look son. You have just shown in this post that you are out of your depth. You may want stop.

NP. Are you actually arguing that if all cars were suddenly switched to electric this would solve climate change?

You are probably the same person but also clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I love you people, internet experts. Out of your depth and absolutely hilarious.

Instead of insults, why don't you try responding with your actual thoughts on electric cars and climate change?

I am insulting you because you claim to know what is needed and what is not needed to “solve climate change” when you clearly have not bothered to actually spend any time understanding the issue. You are an interloper on a subject that is complex and you your mental models are so simplistic that based on your willingness to make ignorant assertions I am not sure that you are capable of understanding much.

First of all, you don’t even have a target for atmospheric CO2. Start with that. Do you know Biden’s current target? Do you know Biden’s current emissions goal? You don’t know either of these, but you know what is needed to “solve climate change”?

Please show me where I or anyone on this thread stated that we didn't know our emissions goals or that they are not relevant to tackling climate change.

Second, all approaches to climate change need to address all emissions sources and need to be multisectoral. In your mind because any one sector cannot reduce emissions sufficiently on its own (although you have no idea what the sectoral composition of emissions are and how much reductions are needed) that it is not worth doing anything. It’s both incredibly naive and ignorant.

Please show me where I or anyone on this thread claimed that since we cannot sufficiently reduce transportation CO2, it's not worth doing.

Third, you don’t know what the transportation contribution to emissions are, you don’t know what an ISO is or grid emissions factors or understand the basic premise of decarbonization. So you in actual fact are informant as to whether or not electric vehicles in their own can indeed meet or emissions targets or how much electric vehicles can contribute to meeting emissions targets.

So yeah, I’m going to laugh at you and call you names. Because you are absolutely out of your depth.

Please show me where I or anyone else in this thread demonstrated ignorance of cars' contribution to climate change.

Furthermore, you have no understanding nor even a prediction of whether or not the HOT lanes would increase GHG emissions and if so by how much. Totally farcical. Up and down.

Please explain how a prediction of whether HOT lanes will increase or decrease GHG has any relevance to the assertion that electric cars will mitigate climate change.

So stop talking about things you have no clue about and have some humility.

I hope that, at the very least, this rant of yours was therapeutic. In the future, if you're going to ignore what posters are actually saying and instead argue with your imaginary person's ideas, it would be nice to know that beforehand so we all know to take you less seriously, and leave you in peace as you deftly tear down strawmen in a conceited effort to feel like the smartest person in the room.