immmigrant haters: do you really want to be like Japan?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

No. We need immigrants in services, agriculture, construction, etc. The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is because there is a demand for them that the legal immigration system does not meet. These people come here and work harder than anyone and contribute to our economy. The legal immigration system is not working.

Is it your contention that there are physically no able-bodied Americans capable of working in services, construction or agriculture? No? Could it be that the demand for them is cut from the same cloth as the demand for Bangladeshi construction workers in Dubai?

It is abundantly obvious that there are not enough Americans who will do low-skilled labor. Americans expect to make more money and have more opportunities for advancement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

The research indicates that while first-gen immigrants use more benefits, that is mainly attributable to their native born children, who later go on to contribute at higher levels.

Once again, the issue here is that we don't have enough low-skill workers based on our demographics.

Let me post this again:

"As controversy continued to rage on Thursday about the Trump Administration’s policy of separating migrant families at the southern border, the Census Bureau published new data that show why the United States will need more immigrants, not fewer, in the coming decades...

From a public-finance perspective, there are several possible ways to tackle the looming challenge. One is to reduce the level of retirement benefits significantly—but that would be very unpopular and difficult to achieve politically. A second option is to increase the proportion of people who are working, among both working-age people and senior citizens. That, too, would be a mighty challenge, because the trend is going in the opposite direction. Since the start of 2000, the employment-to-population ratio among adults sixteen or older has fallen, from 64.6 per cent to 60.4 per cent, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. To be sure, the Great Recession and its aftermath were partly responsible for this decline. But so was the aging population: employment rates tend to decline in older-age cohorts.

The final option is to welcome more immigrants, particularly younger immigrants, so that, in the coming decades, they and their descendants will find work and contribute to the tax base. Almost all economists agree that immigration raises G.D.P. and stimulates business development by increasing the supply of workers and entrepreneurs. There is some disagreement about the net fiscal impact of first-generation migrants. The argument is that they tend to be less educated and therefore earn lower wages than the native population, and that they tend to contribute less in taxes. But this is disputed. There is no doubt about the contribution that immigrant families make over the longer term, however.

“Second-generation adults—the children of immigrants—had, on average, a more favorable net fiscal impact for all government levels combined than either first-generation immigrants or the rest of the native-born population,” a study of the period from 1994–2013 by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine, published in 2016, pointed out. “Reflecting their slightly higher educational achievement, as well as their higher wages and salaries, the second generation contributed more in taxes on a per capita basis during working ages than did their parents or other native-born Americans.”

In the long run, welcoming immigrants is a good investment for the United States. The entire history of the country demonstrates this fact."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/why-the-united-states-needs-more-immigrants

"Let’s just say it plainly: The United States needs more low-skilled immigrants."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/business/economy/immigrants-skills-economy-jobs.html

So then, you WANT an entire class of low-skilled workers. Even though you PRETEND you're completely against income disparity. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

This

Please, you're going to have to do better than "bingo" and "this." Actual research, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

This

Please, you're going to have to do better than "bingo" and "this." Actual research, please.

Are you the PP (OP?) who keeps demanding the thread go the way you want it to go? No. Take a seat. The original PP, above, laid out a rational, common sense suggestion and two other PPs agreed. You simply didn't like the suggestion and can't stand that people are agreeing. There doesn't have to be "research" for someone to lay out their ideas. Grow up and stop telling others what to do and how to write their posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nothing you posted says we need more unskilled immigrants.

Exactly this. Our country allows plenty of LEGAL, skilled immigrants to become citizens. We are not in any danger of a demographic decline, as much as the OP insists we are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, why don’t you post that page long thing three or four more times, just to make sure people notice. You seem to be fond of it.

I'll keep on posting it as long as people aren't engaging with it.

You’ve been doing it for 12 pages and still didn’t get the response you think you want. I estimate your chances at this point to be below five percent. In fact, you are better off just typing up whatever you want to see and pretending it came from someone else.

+1,000,000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

No. We need immigrants in services, agriculture, construction, etc. The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is because there is a demand for them that the legal immigration system does not meet. These people come here and work harder than anyone and contribute to our economy. The legal immigration system is not working.

You have yet to address the question that's been posed to you several times: you are advocating for a permanent, low-paid, unskilled underclass, correct? Yet you pay lip service to the concept that income disparity in the US has never been greater, and you feel that needs to change. So which is it?? Answer the question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

No. We need immigrants in services, agriculture, construction, etc. The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is because there is a demand for them that the legal immigration system does not meet. These people come here and work harder than anyone and contribute to our economy. The legal immigration system is not working.

If you're here legally, then you're most likely educated. So you won't be working in construction or in farming. But once you're in - and legal to work - you do benefit society by increasing the tax base.

If you're uneducated or low-skilled, you'll take whatever is offered. I was slapped earlier for saying that our youth (citizens) won't take menial jobs. Someone said I was basically pushing for "child labor." lol - Clearly that person doesn't know his/her history.

Anyway, it's not a one-answer solution. Our own young people need to understand a work ethic. And those entering who are low-skilled can indeed perform some of the back-breaking work. However, they need to be on the books and they need protections from abuse. Entering illegally may offer protections early on, but if they manage to stay under the radar after entering, they can suffer abuses.

You either enter legally or you return. Illegal immigration poses more problems than not. And before some you neo libs attack me, you're the ones slamming big corporations for hiring illegal immigrants and forcing them to work in abusive situations. So let me shut you down right now.

You enter through legal measures, and maybe that means that the US needs to revamp its immigration pathway.

This is OP. Thank you for your response - you actually end up in a place where I think we agree (revamp immigration pathway). My only quibble is I'm not sure that inculcating a "work ethic" in kids that have alternatives to back-breaking, low-skilled work is likely to be successful. They are rational actors, so they are going to pick the careers that are less back-breaking if they can. Our job as a nation is to ensure that we respect the workers doing the back-breaking work by making sure they get a decent wage & workplace safety & health care.

NP. The real solution is that the employers behind the "back-breaking" work need to increase pay, benefits, and worker protections so that American citizens will take the jobs. Increase slaughterhouse, agricultural, janitorial, etc. pay to $18-20/hour plus benefits, and Americans (especially the ones who are low-skilled and/or don't have college educations, of which there are plenty) will take the jobs. If we are relying on undocumented immigrants to keep prices of commodities low, that means they're artificially low. If prices need to go up to make these jobs attractive to American citizens and not exploit anyone, so be it. The solution is not to just keep turning a blind eye to illegal immigration "because we need low-skilled immigrants to take the jobs Americans won't." There are millions of Americans who don't go to college and are otherwise "working-class." So the real questions we should be asking are WHY won't Americans take those jobs, and how can we change that?

I recognize that Republicans don't want to do this - so this would actually be a very effective Democratic response to all of their messaging re: illegal immigration and would put them on the defensive. And would be way better messaging from the Democrats than what they're currently saying.

I'm a Republican and agree completely with you. Many Republicans feel raising the minimum wage is a good idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sick- why do you conflate illegal and legal immigration. Please just stop.

No. You need to accept that your imputation of immorality to illegal immigrants is not the only possible position. And, please focus on the actual question in the post. Are you able to understand the situation Japan is in due to is immigration policies? Do you understand that people are here illegally because the US economy NEEDS them, and therefore our policies don't actually keep them out?

Again, if what you're saying is that we need to create routes of legal immigration to regularize our labor force - I totally agree. And, this is the Democratic party position.

We are not impugning immorality to illegal aliens. We are starting the obvious, which liberals continue to disregard - they are breaking our laws by coming here the way they do.

And they are not coming here because the U.S. economy needs them. They are a net drain to Americans. They are coming here for the benefits of U.S. residency, which does not justify their flouting the immigration law.

I just wish liberals had the same concern and sympathy for Americans who are struggling than for foreigners who are scofflaws.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sick- why do you conflate illegal and legal immigration. Please just stop.

No. You need to accept that your imputation of immorality to illegal immigrants is not the only possible position. And, please focus on the actual question in the post. Are you able to understand the situation Japan is in due to is immigration policies? Do you understand that people are here illegally because the US economy NEEDS them, and therefore our policies don't actually keep them out?

Again, if what you're saying is that we need to create routes of legal immigration to regularize our labor force - I totally agree. And, this is the Democratic party position.

We are not impugning immorality to illegal aliens. We are starting the obvious, which liberals continue to disregard - they are breaking our laws by coming here the way they do.

And they are not coming here because the U.S. economy needs them. They are a net drain to Americans. They are coming here for the benefits of U.S. residency, which does not justify their flouting the immigration law.

I just wish liberals had the same concern and sympathy for Americans who are struggling than for foreigners who are scofflaws.

I've posted a kagillion articles rebutting this, from all over the political spectrum.

DP

And you can post all the BS articles you want. The data means nothing because it can be manipulated to support either side.

But for those of us who live in communities with high numbers of illegal immigrants, we see exactly what kind of a toll it takes on the neighborhood. Financially and otherwise.

Exactly. All the "studies" and articles in the world don't mean a thing when schools are overburdened with illegal immigrants who don't speak English and home values plummet because neighborhoods have been trashed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sick- why do you conflate illegal and legal immigration. Please just stop.

No. You need to accept that your imputation of immorality to illegal immigrants is not the only possible position. And, please focus on the actual question in the post. Are you able to understand the situation Japan is in due to is immigration policies? Do you understand that people are here illegally because the US economy NEEDS them, and therefore our policies don't actually keep them out?

Again, if what you're saying is that we need to create routes of legal immigration to regularize our labor force - I totally agree. And, this is the Democratic party position.

We are not impugning immorality to illegal aliens. We are starting the obvious, which liberals continue to disregard - they are breaking our laws by coming here the way they do.

And they are not coming here because the U.S. economy needs them. They are a net drain to Americans. They are coming here for the benefits of U.S. residency, which does not justify their flouting the immigration law.

I just wish liberals had the same concern and sympathy for Americans who are struggling than for foreigners who are scofflaws.

I've posted a kagillion articles rebutting this, from all over the political spectrum.

DP

And you can post all the BS articles you want. The data means nothing because it can be manipulated to support either side.

But for those of us who live in communities with high numbers of illegal immigrants, we see exactly what kind of a toll it takes on the neighborhood. Financially and otherwise.

I’m sorry you are still stuck in this situation. Can you move? Or would you lose a lot of money on your house?

PP here

Spouse and I are currently having this very discussion. We are lucky in that we've paid off a good chunk of our mortgage, and can leave. Two of our neighbors have already left, and one family skips MCPS for private school. However, we're not sure where to go! MoCo has had illegal immigration affect the entire county. From what I understand, Fairfax County faces similar challenges.

We'll see. We're not the only ones in our Middle Class suburb wrestling with this issue, however. And, we're not White, FWIW. We've lived in a very diverse, solidly middle class area on MoCo for over 15 years, but recent years have led to a complete lack on housing code enforcement, etc, which has led to declines in our neighborhood. It's been a bummer to watch.

DP. My parents' neighborhood has really gone downhill too as a result of the influx of non-English speaking immgrants, a percentage of which are illegal. (The school rating is a 3, and the worst in MoCo.) The majority of students are on free lunches and a very high percentage are ESOL. There are five and six cars in front of many houses, with multiple families squeezed into SFHs. It's sad. It used to be an upper-middle class neighborhood when I lived there.

Anyone who claims that an influx of uneducated, unskilled, non-English speaking families does not bring down a neighborhood doesn't live in one.

This, exactly. OP, we're looking at you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

No. We need immigrants in services, agriculture, construction, etc. The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is because there is a demand for them that the legal immigration system does not meet. These people come here and work harder than anyone and contribute to our economy. The legal immigration system is not working.

Is it your contention that there are physically no able-bodied Americans capable of working in services, construction or agriculture? No? Could it be that the demand for them is cut from the same cloth as the demand for Bangladeshi construction workers in Dubai?

It is abundantly obvious that there are not enough Americans who will do low-skilled labor. Americans expect to make more money and have more opportunities for advancement.

Then it's an American problem. Bring the workers' expectations in line with what the market is prepared to offer them, or bring the employers' expectations in line with what the workers demand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your concern is to replenish the tax base, then it seems that welcoming masses of minimum-wage people who are likely to require substantial - and costly - public benefits. A much better solution would be to increase the number of educated, well-paid immigrants whose incomes, spending and attendant tax contributions will inject much more fuel into the economy.

Bingo.

No. We need immigrants in services, agriculture, construction, etc. The reason we have so many undocumented immigrants is because there is a demand for them that the legal immigration system does not meet. These people come here and work harder than anyone and contribute to our economy. The legal immigration system is not working.

You have yet to address the question that's been posed to you several times: you are advocating for a permanent, low-paid, unskilled underclass, correct? Yet you pay lip service to the concept that income disparity in the US has never been greater, and you feel that needs to change. So which is it?? Answer the question.

You seem to confuse "low skill" with "permanent underclass." But I am so thrilled that you are concerned about income inequality (are you a Bernie bro?) and class-based analysis. As I have stated and posted research to support multiple times, regularizing labor is the *best* way to start protecting low-skill workers. After that, there's a lot we can do for the whole class, like union rights and minumum wage. As for the low-skill immigrants themselves, the researcj shows the move to the US is the big leap in social mobility, then their kids continue the upward trajectory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sick- why do you conflate illegal and legal immigration. Please just stop.

No. You need to accept that your imputation of immorality to illegal immigrants is not the only possible position. And, please focus on the actual question in the post. Are you able to understand the situation Japan is in due to is immigration policies? Do you understand that people are here illegally because the US economy NEEDS them, and therefore our policies don't actually keep them out?

Again, if what you're saying is that we need to create routes of legal immigration to regularize our labor force - I totally agree. And, this is the Democratic party position.

We are not impugning immorality to illegal aliens. We are starting the obvious, which liberals continue to disregard - they are breaking our laws by coming here the way they do.

And they are not coming here because the U.S. economy needs them. They are a net drain to Americans. They are coming here for the benefits of U.S. residency, which does not justify their flouting the immigration law.

I just wish liberals had the same concern and sympathy for Americans who are struggling than for foreigners who are scofflaws.

I've posted a kagillion articles rebutting this, from all over the political spectrum.

DP

And you can post all the BS articles you want. The data means nothing because it can be manipulated to support either side.

But for those of us who live in communities with high numbers of illegal immigrants, we see exactly what kind of a toll it takes on the neighborhood. Financially and otherwise.

I’m sorry you are still stuck in this situation. Can you move? Or would you lose a lot of money on your house?

PP here

Spouse and I are currently having this very discussion. We are lucky in that we've paid off a good chunk of our mortgage, and can leave. Two of our neighbors have already left, and one family skips MCPS for private school. However, we're not sure where to go! MoCo has had illegal immigration affect the entire county. From what I understand, Fairfax County faces similar challenges.

We'll see. We're not the only ones in our Middle Class suburb wrestling with this issue, however. And, we're not White, FWIW. We've lived in a very diverse, solidly middle class area on MoCo for over 15 years, but recent years have led to a complete lack on housing code enforcement, etc, which has led to declines in our neighborhood. It's been a bummer to watch.

DP. My parents' neighborhood has really gone downhill too as a result of the influx of non-English speaking immgrants, a percentage of which are illegal. (The school rating is a 3, and the worst in MoCo.) The majority of students are on free lunches and a very high percentage are ESOL. There are five and six cars in front of many houses, with multiple families squeezed into SFHs. It's sad. It used to be an upper-middle class neighborhood when I lived there.

Anyone who claims that an influx of uneducated, unskilled, non-English speaking families does not bring down a neighborhood doesn't live in one.

This, exactly. OP, we're looking at you.

Op here. One of the favorite places I lived was a 95% dominican neighborhood in NYC. I am not scared of Spanish, I guess?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sick- why do you conflate illegal and legal immigration. Please just stop.

No. You need to accept that your imputation of immorality to illegal immigrants is not the only possible position. And, please focus on the actual question in the post. Are you able to understand the situation Japan is in due to is immigration policies? Do you understand that people are here illegally because the US economy NEEDS them, and therefore our policies don't actually keep them out?

Again, if what you're saying is that we need to create routes of legal immigration to regularize our labor force - I totally agree. And, this is the Democratic party position.

We are not impugning immorality to illegal aliens. We are starting the obvious, which liberals continue to disregard - they are breaking our laws by coming here the way they do.

And they are not coming here because the U.S. economy needs them. They are a net drain to Americans. They are coming here for the benefits of U.S. residency, which does not justify their flouting the immigration law.

I just wish liberals had the same concern and sympathy for Americans who are struggling than for foreigners who are scofflaws.

I've posted a kagillion articles rebutting this, from all over the political spectrum.

DP

And you can post all the BS articles you want. The data means nothing because it can be manipulated to support either side.

But for those of us who live in communities with high numbers of illegal immigrants, we see exactly what kind of a toll it takes on the neighborhood. Financially and otherwise.

Exactly. All the "studies" and articles in the world don't mean a thing when schools are overburdened with illegal immigrants who don't speak English and home values plummet because neighborhoods have been trashed.

can you point me to the census tracts where home values have plummeted inversely with increases of Hispanic population?