$24 billion NYC public schools only accepted 7 black students (of 895) to top magnet high schoool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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The "pool" in NYC is going to be heavily Asian no matter what. The stats at the "less competitive" magnets right now support this.

PP. Fair enough--I was just trying to think of a way to make the pool a bit more diverse, while also trying to scoop up a few more of the promising black/Latino kids. Perhaps the metrics would need to be shifted a bit, or allow additional, weighted metrics, in order to achieve more diversity in the pool. Just brainstorming.

I hear a lot about the "promising black/Latino kids" who are left behind. What about the vast pool of "promising Asian-American" who are left behind? Heck, what about the "proven Asian-American" who are left behind? There are vastly more Asian-American students who are rejected inspite of having all the credentials, drive and promise that other races who are chosen. The racism and the disregard shown towards the Asian-Americans by Whites as well as URMs is breathtaking in its arrogance, entitlement and blindness.

Nobody is trying to stop Asians from attending these schools. There should be a minimum score and anybody that gets that score should be admitted. Surely there are a huge number of qualified Asians that did well enough to prove they can handle the homework but were not admitted. Just like every other group. The problem is skimming from the top only.

I am ok with skimming from the top because the seats are limited. If there is space for 700 students, and the top students (who APPLIED) include 7 Black students only, then I welcome these 7 Black students wholeheartedly. They have made it because of their hardwork and brains. They are no less than anyone else. They have not been admitted because of Affirmative Action. They have earned their place.

Now, perhaps, schools and Black parents/students need to study why and how these 7 students got in and emulate them. If the reason these kids got in because they study 45 hours at home each week, then that is precisely what other URM students need to do to get in selective schools. Don't turn Black/Hispanic kids into beggars who are looking for dole all the time. Make them work hard so that they can proudly achieve high in academics.

I'm curious too. However, if it turns out that these kids are immigrants or children of immigrants, that's an important variable that can't be recreated in AA homes. The immigrant experience is fundamentally different from the experience of Americans who've been here for many generations and who started out as enslaved people.

The African American kids today are not children of slaves, or even grandchildren of slaves. Are you saying that the African American psyche is still one of "enslavement"?

Yes, the immigrant mentality is very different than generational American mentality, no matter the race. You see this in Asian American communities, too. Dollars to doughnuts many of those Asian students at Stuy are children of immigrants. The third, sometimes, second generation of immigrants are more like "real" Americans in that they don't work *as* hard. They are not as hungry to better themselves. I see this in my own family, where my parents, siblings and I are first gen immigrants. My parents struggled. We saw them struggle, and we knew what "working hard" meant. Our kids, mine included, don't have any sense of what it means to be "hungry", so they don't seem to be willing to work as hard. They don't see their parents struggling; they don't have to be translators when they are still in ES for their parents. My kids know that they have their parents to help them, while poor immigrant children don't. Very different mentality.

The African American kids of today are the grandchildren of segregation and Jim Crow. Of course it makes a difference. But this is also why race-based affirmative action is BS. Your recent immigrant from Nigeria is completely different from the descendants of slaves.

Let me remind you again... Asian Americans and Hispanic Americans were also considered "colored" people and suffered under segregation.

There were no Jim Crow laws in the north, btw. Of course, there was still discrimination, but again, other minority groups suffered under discrimination, too. Look at the Asian American history out west. Lots of eye-opening articles about it. There was even segregation of Asian Americans out west. Do they continue to use that as an excuse?

There is a vast disparity between the % of Asians who grew up in segregation vs. the % of AAs who did. The Asians who are the descendants of railroad workers aren’t doing that great either and there should be more education about how they were treated. Their outcomes are just diluted by the massive number of Chinese immigrants who came to the US on scholarships a century later because we study outcomes by race and ethnicity. Again, this is why affirmative action based on race is BS. The descendants of slaves and railroad workers should benefit from affirmative action. The African and Asians who came here as expats should not.

? What is your source for "The Asians who are the descendants of railroad workers aren’t doing that great either " statement?

Indeed... and the people descended from poor Chinese railroad workers never got special treatment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ok. What is the history and culture of most of the Hispanic and black students who took the test?

They are western civilization culture derived. Cultures influenced by the ancient Roman and Greek world and Christianity, with their own local variations.

Asian cultures are Confucian derived. Cultures influenced by 5 classics, with their own local variations.

And if cultures approach testing differently, then that inherently makes the test biased? There are cultural barriers for kids who don’t come from a test-focused culture.

No, it doesn't bias the test itself.

It can bias the attitude towards education, or preparation for tests.

American culture believes in the importance of being "well rounded", which means they don't put an emphasis on education as much. American kids play a lot of sports, have other e.c. activities.

This is a very American thing. European universities don't care about athletics or your e.c.s activities. They look at your test scores, and that's it. They are more aligned with Asian countries in terms of college admissions.

Asians believe that academics is more important than being "well rounded", which means they over emphasize education. Asian students do play sports and music, but education is emphasized more.

‘Academics’ is not one thing. There are many different. Americans are absolutely atrocious in math and foreign languages, for starters. How is that for well rounded?

American children like to dabble in many different things while never reaching excellence in anything. That’s not well rounded - that’s superficial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Ok. What is the history and culture of most of the Hispanic and black students who took the test?

They are western civilization culture derived. Cultures influenced by the ancient Roman and Greek world and Christianity, with their own local variations.

Asian cultures are Confucian derived. Cultures influenced by 5 classics, with their own local variations.

And if cultures approach testing differently, then that inherently makes the test biased? There are cultural barriers for kids who don’t come from a test-focused culture.

No, it doesn't bias the test itself.

It can bias the attitude towards education, or preparation for tests.

How about in the last few hundreds years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The "pool" in NYC is going to be heavily Asian no matter what. The stats at the "less competitive" magnets right now support this.

PP. Fair enough--I was just trying to think of a way to make the pool a bit more diverse, while also trying to scoop up a few more of the promising black/Latino kids. Perhaps the metrics would need to be shifted a bit, or allow additional, weighted metrics, in order to achieve more diversity in the pool. Just brainstorming.

I hear a lot about the "promising black/Latino kids" who are left behind. What about the vast pool of "promising Asian-American" who are left behind? Heck, what about the "proven Asian-American" who are left behind? There are vastly more Asian-American students who are rejected inspite of having all the credentials, drive and promise that other races who are chosen. The racism and the disregard shown towards the Asian-Americans by Whites as well as URMs is breathtaking in its arrogance, entitlement and blindness.

Nobody is trying to stop Asians from attending these schools. There should be a minimum score and anybody that gets that score should be admitted. Surely there are a huge number of qualified Asians that did well enough to prove they can handle the homework but were not admitted. Just like every other group. The problem is skimming from the top only.

I am ok with skimming from the top because the seats are limited. If there is space for 700 students, and the top students (who APPLIED) include 7 Black students only, then I welcome these 7 Black students wholeheartedly. They have made it because of their hardwork and brains. They are no less than anyone else. They have not been admitted because of Affirmative Action. They have earned their place.

Now, perhaps, schools and Black parents/students need to study why and how these 7 students got in and emulate them. If the reason these kids got in because they study 45 hours at home each week, then that is precisely what other URM students need to do to get in selective schools. Don't turn Black/Hispanic kids into beggars who are looking for dole all the time. Make them work hard so that they can proudly achieve high in academics.

I'm curious too. However, if it turns out that these kids are immigrants or children of immigrants, that's an important variable that can't be recreated in AA homes. The immigrant experience is fundamentally different from the experience of Americans who've been here for many generations and who started out as enslaved people.

The African American kids today are not children of slaves, or even grandchildren of slaves. Are you saying that the African American psyche is still one of "enslavement"?

Yes, the immigrant mentality is very different than generational American mentality, no matter the race. You see this in Asian American communities, too. Dollars to doughnuts many of those Asian students at Stuy are children of immigrants. The third, sometimes, second generation of immigrants are more like "real" Americans in that they don't work *as* hard. They are not as hungry to better themselves. I see this in my own family, where my parents, siblings and I are first gen immigrants. My parents struggled. We saw them struggle, and we knew what "working hard" meant. Our kids, mine included, don't have any sense of what it means to be "hungry", so they don't seem to be willing to work as hard. They don't see their parents struggling; they don't have to be translators when they are still in ES for their parents. My kids know that they have their parents to help them, while poor immigrant children don't. Very different mentality.

The African American kids of today are the grandchildren of segregation and Jim Crow. Of course it makes a difference. But this is also why race-based affirmative action is BS. Your recent immigrant from Nigeria is completely different from the descendants of slaves.

Let me remind you again... Asian Americans and Hispanic Americans were also considered "colored" people and suffered under segregation.

There were no Jim Crow laws in the north, btw. Of course, there was still discrimination, but again, other minority groups suffered under discrimination, too. Look at the Asian American history out west. Lots of eye-opening articles about it. There was even segregation of Asian Americans out west. Do they continue to use that as an excuse?

There is a vast disparity between the % of Asians who grew up in segregation vs. the % of AAs who did. The Asians who are the descendants of railroad workers aren’t doing that great either and there should be more education about how they were treated. Their outcomes are just diluted by the massive number of Chinese immigrants who came to the US on scholarships a century later because we study outcomes by race and ethnicity. Again, this is why affirmative action based on race is BS. The descendants of slaves and railroad workers should benefit from affirmative action. The African and Asians who came here as expats should not.

? What is your source for "The Asians who are the descendants of railroad workers aren’t doing that great either " statement?

Indeed... and the people descended from poor Chinese railroad workers never got special treatment.

We don't generally look at outcomes by immigration waves, so we can only approximate based on geography and community:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/07/12/this-racial-group-has-biggest-fastest-growing-income-divide/?utm_term=.cc07f5e9b8f4
http://reappropriate.co/2014/05/report-shows-san-franciscos-aapi-resident-experience-high-poverty-chronic-disease-rates/

Also, there are 2 types of people in the world:

1) I suffered so you must too
2) Because I suffered, I will change the world so that you don't have to

It was wrong that the poor Chinese railroad workers did not get special treatment. It's a wrong that we should still work to correct today, instead of bemoaning other races for getting the help that they should have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The "pool" in NYC is going to be heavily Asian no matter what. The stats at the "less competitive" magnets right now support this.

PP. Fair enough--I was just trying to think of a way to make the pool a bit more diverse, while also trying to scoop up a few more of the promising black/Latino kids. Perhaps the metrics would need to be shifted a bit, or allow additional, weighted metrics, in order to achieve more diversity in the pool. Just brainstorming.

I hear a lot about the "promising black/Latino kids" who are left behind. What about the vast pool of "promising Asian-American" who are left behind? Heck, what about the "proven Asian-American" who are left behind? There are vastly more Asian-American students who are rejected inspite of having all the credentials, drive and promise that other races who are chosen. The racism and the disregard shown towards the Asian-Americans by Whites as well as URMs is breathtaking in its arrogance, entitlement and blindness.

Nobody is trying to stop Asians from attending these schools. There should be a minimum score and anybody that gets that score should be admitted. Surely there are a huge number of qualified Asians that did well enough to prove they can handle the homework but were not admitted. Just like every other group. The problem is skimming from the top only.

I am ok with skimming from the top because the seats are limited. If there is space for 700 students, and the top students (who APPLIED) include 7 Black students only, then I welcome these 7 Black students wholeheartedly. They have made it because of their hardwork and brains. They are no less than anyone else. They have not been admitted because of Affirmative Action. They have earned their place.

Now, perhaps, schools and Black parents/students need to study why and how these 7 students got in and emulate them. If the reason these kids got in because they study 45 hours at home each week, then that is precisely what other URM students need to do to get in selective schools. Don't turn Black/Hispanic kids into beggars who are looking for dole all the time. Make them work hard so that they can proudly achieve high in academics.

Considering the Constitution of the United States requires equal education I have a problem with "limited seats". If they want to offer this education to some they have to offer it to everybody that can be successful.

God help us if we have parents emulating a parent that tie their kids down with 45 hours of studying a week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the asians attending Stuyvesant and Bronx Science are first or second generation immigrants. Most are low income and qualifying for free lunch. Free prep classes were offered.

With such a high immigrant population for whom English is not a first language and who are coming from a foreign culture, it means that African Americans have an advantage over immigrants if the tests were actually biased. This is because for AA's English is overwhelmingly their first language, and they grow up in an American culture.

The only admissions criteria are scored based. The SES of the applicants across POC seems roughly similar.

The differences would appear to be academic culturally based and likely family differences rather than bias of the exam itself.

Asian cultures place a lot of emphasis on exams as a means to improve their station in life. For over 2000 years in China, anyone could take an exam to become a civil servant and improve their station in life. It was one of the most famous meritocracies in history. This cultural arficiat remains today in the Gaokao in China and various entrance exams in Japan and Korea. East Asia it is quite common across all social classes to attend cram schools and prep schools for hours after regular school. Its considered part of daily life.

http://www.chinasage.info/examinations.htm
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2095454/chinas-top-cram-school-saviour-poor-rejected-rich
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/world/asia/25iht-cram.1.13975596.html

Ok. What is the history and culture of most of the Hispanic and black students who took the test?

And if cultures approach testing differently, then that inherently makes the test biased? There are cultural barriers for kids who don’t come from a test-focused culture.

Nonsense. That's like saying kids coming from cultures where hard work isn't valued tend to work less hard....well so what? Objectively, these tests have zero cultural bias.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Having attended one of these highly selective schools as one of a few AA kids, I can tell you that after a while the numbers become self-fulfilling. You see that only 7 got in, you now have no interest in being one of only 7, so when its your time to apply, you go for comfort instead of challenge. Remember that high school, beyond education, is also hormones, social, friends, relationships with teachers, dances, environment. Being one of a few is no fun in the middle of all the "do I fit in". It takes a kid with serious support, independence and will to want to be one of a few. And let's be honest, if you can be valedictorian in a less rigorous place, that beats being in the middle in a more rigorous place as far as college applications go. That's the calculation some make.

I agree. I'm the PP who went to Bx Science in the 90s and even then, I did not want to go because I thought I was going to be the only black kid (turns out I wasn't...lol). The thing is my parents forced me to go because they knew it was great school. If I was in my parents' shoes now, however, I don't know if I would push it. It sucks being the only or "token" and social isolation, especially during the teenage years can be brutal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having attended one of these highly selective schools as one of a few AA kids, I can tell you that after a while the numbers become self-fulfilling. You see that only 7 got in, you now have no interest in being one of only 7, so when its your time to apply, you go for comfort instead of challenge. Remember that high school, beyond education, is also hormones, social, friends, relationships with teachers, dances, environment. Being one of a few is no fun in the middle of all the "do I fit in". It takes a kid with serious support, independence and will to want to be one of a few. And let's be honest, if you can be valedictorian in a less rigorous place, that beats being in the middle in a more rigorous place as far as college applications go. That's the calculation some make.

I agree. I'm the PP who went to Bx Science in the 90s and even then, I did not want to go because I thought I was going to be the only black kid (turns out I wasn't...lol). The thing is my parents forced me to go because they knew it was great school. If I was in my parents' shoes now, however, I don't know if I would push it. It sucks being the only or "token" and social isolation, especially during the teenage years can be brutal.

I think there is also less of an incentive to go to one of these test-in public schools when private schools are tripping over each other to recruit talented minority kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ok. What is the history and culture of most of the Hispanic and black students who took the test?

They are western civilization culture derived. Cultures influenced by the ancient Roman and Greek world and Christianity, with their own local variations.

Asian cultures are Confucian derived. Cultures influenced by 5 classics, with their own local variations.

And if cultures approach testing differently, then that inherently makes the test biased? There are cultural barriers for kids who don’t come from a test-focused culture.

No, it doesn't bias the test itself.

It can bias the attitude towards education, or preparation for tests.

American culture believes in the importance of being "well rounded", which means they don't put an emphasis on education as much. American kids play a lot of sports, have other e.c. activities.

This is a very American thing. European universities don't care about athletics or your e.c.s activities. They look at your test scores, and that's it. They are more aligned with Asian countries in terms of college admissions.

Asians believe that academics is more important than being "well rounded", which means they over emphasize education. Asian students do play sports and music, but education is emphasized more.

‘Academics’ is not one thing. There are many different. Americans are absolutely atrocious in math and foreign languages, for starters. How is that for well rounded?

American children like to dabble in many different things while never reaching excellence in anything. That’s not well rounded - that’s superficial.

That's because kids test into good programs and the rest are left with inadequate schools.

[Anonymous]

93% of suicides in China are attributed to the Gaokao test.

Kids (middle school) suicide cluster the month leading up to the tests.

Schools have been know to close 2nd floors in their school the month leading up to the test.

This model is sick.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff dented my sarcastic , over the top response. Which I get and quite frankly expected. But mannnn theses type of arts gang and paternalistic racist comments are infuriating. DCUM has become a beacon for rabidly racist posters lately. SMH. It gets tiring. I need to just not respond.

I enjoyed your response. I only deleted it because I meant to delete the post that you quoted, which I agree with you was inappropriate. I thought that I did delete it and was surprised to see you quote it again. Either it was posted twice or I deleted a quote of it and didn't realize. At any rate, I have removed it now. I will also remove your post since it quotes it. Please report any racist posts that you see because I can't keep up with this thread.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff dented my sarcastic , over the top response. Which I get and quite frankly expected. But mannnn theses type of arts gang and paternalistic racist comments are infuriating. DCUM has become a beacon for rabidly racist posters lately. SMH. It gets tiring. I need to just not respond.

I enjoyed your response. I only deleted it because I meant to delete the post that you quoted, which I agree with you was inappropriate. I thought that I did delete it and was surprised to see you quote it again. Either it was posted twice or I deleted a quote of it and didn't realize. At any rate, I have removed it now. I will also remove your post since it quotes it. Please report any racist posts that you see because I can't keep up with this thread.

Thanks Jeff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Freshman acceptance:
7 black
33 Latino
587 Asian
194 white

NYCPS district overall is 67% black/Latino, 15% white, 15% Asian. Stuyvesant High School is comparable in selectivity to TJ, but I suppose a bit more prestigious, with more national prominence. This is a huge story.

What is going on here? How are Asians so wildly overrepresented and black and Latin kids so underprepared in a $24 billion annually system?

Only two possibilities really: black children don't want to go so they don't apply or black children don't get in because can't meet the admissions standards....probably a combination of the two.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Freshman acceptance:
7 black
33 Latino
587 Asian
194 white

NYCPS district overall is 67% black/Latino, 15% white, 15% Asian. Stuyvesant High School is comparable in selectivity to TJ, but I suppose a bit more prestigious, with more national prominence. This is a huge story.

What is going on here? How are Asians so wildly overrepresented and black and Latin kids so underprepared in a $24 billion annually system?

Only two possibilities really: black children don't want to go so they don't apply or black children don't get in because can't meet the admissions standards....probably a combination of the two.

it's mainly #2 stats bear it out can we get to 17 pages again lol probably time to lock the thread

[Anonymous]

Interesting insight from a woman who attended Stuyvesant:
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/stuyvesant-high-schools-chronic-lack-black-students/585349/