Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I agree with you, but I think MCPS does not. Why is there so much focus on ‘closing the achievement gap’?

What do you think MCPS says when it states that as their goal? It means that they feel that Black and Latino kids are not performing well. That’s where people make the assumption that Black and Hispanic kids are lagging behind!

MCPS agrees too. MCPS commissioned the Metis report. MCPS is acting on the results in the Metis report. Have you read the Metis report?

Here is an example of a barrier to entry (which is not in the Metis report, as far as I know): if you're in the upcounty and you're applying to a high school application magnet, you have to go to Poolesville HS on a Saturday to take the tests. The only way to get to Poolesville on a Saturday is by car. If your family doesn't have a car, it's much harder to get to Poolesville to take the test. Poor families are less likely to have a car or have access to a car. So the Poolesville testing site is a barrier to entry for kids who are bright and poor. (And, as we all know, there is a strong correlation between income and race/ethnicity in Montgomery County.)

How will a bright kid who couldn't get to Poolesville on a Saturday for the application test, be helped by mandatory K-12 tutoring for students who are behind?

If MCPS moved the testing site from Poolesville HS to Seneca Valley HS, would you call that a social engineering technique that will ruin the high school magnet programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly. If MCPS was testing EVERY STUDENT in 3rd grade and giving the top students automatic admission - it would be another thing. If they were expanding magnet programs to accommodate the top 3-5% students in the entire county- that would be another thing. If they were enforcing that all 2nd graders were being prepared to take that exam at school then it would be another thing. However, they are just lowering the standards so that they can say that they took more Blacks and Latinos. What about Whites and Asians who are also ESOL and FARMS?

Poverty + under-achievement in this county IS falling along racial lines. It is irrefutable. However, the Asian-American population (rich or poor) bears no burden to problem.

There we go again. Another post saying that the only way to admit more black and Latino students is to lower the standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Metis report reported what MCPS wanted it to report. The achievement gap is not a creation of the magnet programs. The achievement gap may be one of the reasons that AA and HI students are under-participating in the magnet program.

AA and HI students are under-participating and under-achieving in all academic areas throughout the US - be it schools, colleges, SATs or scholastic competitions. And this is not the function of race alone - but a function of generations of poverty and broken family structure for AA, and poverty, language barrier, illiteracy, immigration status and displaced families for HI students.

Changing admissions criteria for magnet programs is not going to fix that. However, it just might end up fucking up one of the things that does work.

You've got a seamless argument here.

Premise: Everything MCPS does is about closing the achievement gap.
Conclusion: Therefore, everything MCPS does is about closing the achievement gap.

[Anonymous]

How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly. If MCPS was testing EVERY STUDENT in 3rd grade and giving the top students automatic admission - it would be another thing. If they were expanding magnet programs to accommodate the top 3-5% students in the entire county- that would be another thing. If they were enforcing that all 2nd graders were being prepared to take that exam at school then it would be another thing. However, they are just lowering the standards so that they can say that they took more Blacks and Latinos. What about Whites and Asians who are also ESOL and FARMS?

Poverty + under-achievement in this county IS falling along racial lines. It is irrefutable. However, the Asian-American population (rich or poor) bears no burden to problem.

There we go again. Another post saying that the only way to admit more black and Latino students is to lower the standards.

DP... look at the stats. As a group, they score lower. Statistically, it is not possible to admit more URM without lowering the threshold or changing the standards to look at a "holistic" approach, whatever that means.

I am going to bring up the Ivy league/Jew comparison again. When Jews became over represented at Harvard, what did Harvard admissions do? They changed the standards and made it "holistic" to exclude more Jews and increase white admissions. Why did they do that.. well, because statistically, white students couldn't score as high as the Jewish students. This is still happening, btw, to Asian American students. Yes, I understand why universities do it now.. they want "diversity", which is fine. But, this type of admission standards is not based purely on merit, which a public ES magnet program should be.

Why do you think they changed the entrance exam from 2 hour to 30min, and why do they no longer show the median scores of the accepted students, split out by the three categories? I can't think of a single valid reason why they would stop showing these scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
DP... look at the stats. As a group, they score lower. Statistically, it is not possible to admit more URM without lowering the threshold or changing the standards to look at a "holistic" approach, whatever that means.

I am going to bring up the Ivy league/Jew comparison again. When Jews became over represented at Harvard, what did Harvard admissions do? They changed the standards and made it "holistic" to exclude more Jews and increase white admissions. Why did they do that.. well, because statistically, white students couldn't score as high as the Jewish students. This is still happening, btw, to Asian American students. Yes, I understand why universities do it now.. they want "diversity", which is fine. But, this type of admission standards is not based purely on merit, which a public ES magnet program should be.

Why do you think they changed the entrance exam from 2 hour to 30min, and why do they no longer show the median scores of the accepted students, split out by the three categories? I can't think of a single valid reason why they would stop showing these scores.

The average height of women in the US is 5 feet 4 inches tall. Therefore, all women in the US are 5 feet 4 inches tall.

That's the reasoning you're using. As a group, black and Latino kids score lower; therefore all black and Latino kids are lower-scoring kids.

Again, if you have evidence that MCPS is using race as a factor in admissions, you shouldn't waste your time posting on DCUM -- you should go straight to DOJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I agree with you, but I think MCPS does not. Why is there so much focus on ‘closing the achievement gap’?

What do you think MCPS says when it states that as their goal? It means that they feel that Black and Latino kids are not performing well. That’s where people make the assumption that Black and Hispanic kids are lagging behind!

MCPS agrees too. MCPS commissioned the Metis report. MCPS is acting on the results in the Metis report. Have you read the Metis report?

Here is an example of a barrier to entry (which is not in the Metis report, as far as I know): if you're in the upcounty and you're applying to a high school application magnet, you have to go to Poolesville HS on a Saturday to take the tests. The only way to get to Poolesville on a Saturday is by car. If your family doesn't have a car, it's much harder to get to Poolesville to take the test. Poor families are less likely to have a car or have access to a car. So the Poolesville testing site is a barrier to entry for kids who are bright and poor. (And, as we all know, there is a strong correlation between income and race/ethnicity in Montgomery County.)

How will a bright kid who couldn't get to Poolesville on a Saturday for the application test, be helped by mandatory K-12 tutoring for students who are behind?

If MCPS moved the testing site from Poolesville HS to Seneca Valley HS, would you call that a social engineering technique that will ruin the high school magnet programs?

I do not in any way disagree with what you are saying. I just want to point out that even if this isn't in the Metis report, it appears that MCPS is thinking about this type of barrier as well, since this year they are providing bus service to Poolesville from Clarksburg, Seneca Valley, and Watkins Mill. Also, students can ask to test at another location if they need to. I hope this helps at least a few students who may have found this difficult before: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/specialprograms/admissions/applications.aspx#tabs-3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?

There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I do not in any way disagree with what you are saying. I just want to point out that even if this isn't in the Metis report, it appears that MCPS is thinking about this type of barrier as well, since this year they are providing bus service to Poolesville from Clarksburg, Seneca Valley, and Watkins Mill. Also, students can ask to test at another location if they need to. I hope this helps at least a few students who may have found this difficult before: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/specialprograms/admissions/applications.aspx#tabs-3

Oh! That's new! Thanks for the information, PP. I wasn't aware of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
DP... look at the stats. As a group, they score lower. Statistically, it is not possible to admit more URM without lowering the threshold or changing the standards to look at a "holistic" approach, whatever that means.

I am going to bring up the Ivy league/Jew comparison again. When Jews became over represented at Harvard, what did Harvard admissions do? They changed the standards and made it "holistic" to exclude more Jews and increase white admissions. Why did they do that.. well, because statistically, white students couldn't score as high as the Jewish students. This is still happening, btw, to Asian American students. Yes, I understand why universities do it now.. they want "diversity", which is fine. But, this type of admission standards is not based purely on merit, which a public ES magnet program should be.

Why do you think they changed the entrance exam from 2 hour to 30min, and why do they no longer show the median scores of the accepted students, split out by the three categories? I can't think of a single valid reason why they would stop showing these scores.

The average height of women in the US is 5 feet 4 inches tall. Therefore, all women in the US are 5 feet 4 inches tall.

That's the reasoning you're using. As a group, black and Latino kids score lower; therefore all black and Latino kids are lower-scoring kids.

Again, if you have evidence that MCPS is using race as a factor in admissions, you shouldn't waste your time posting on DCUM -- you should go straight to DOJ.

Do you understand how statistics works? The average height of a woman is 5'4". The only way to make the average go up is to introduce taller people to the mix, or take the shorter people out. The only way to change the test scores of a group that statiscally scores lower is to.. what? They've tried to get the group's score to go up for *years*. It's not moving much. So, how do they get more of them represented in magnets?

I have zero evidence as do you of it either way because MCPS won't release any figures, including the median test scores of the accepted students. You have no idea why they stopped showing those scores, or why they reduced the test from two hours to 30min. I don't have proof, but I can put two and two together.

METIS report recommends "broadening the definition of gifted" and increase the participation of URM in the programs; MCPS wants to close the achievement gap; the tests were changed; they no longer report the median score of accpeted students. What does this all mean? Maybe my assumptions are wrong, but since MCPS wont' communicate the stats or the reasons behind all the change, I use "context clues" to come to my own conclusion. That's fine if you don't want to make any assumptions based on all the changes, and just stick your head in the sand and say, "I'm sure MCPS would never lower the standards to close the achievement gap", but I do question MCPS on this, as do many.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Do you understand how statistics works? The average height of a woman is 5'4". The only way to make the average go up is to introduce taller people to the mix, or take the shorter people out. The only way to change the test scores of a group that statiscally scores lower is to.. what? They've tried to get the group's score to go up for *years*. It's not moving much. So, how do they get more of them represented in magnets?

I have zero evidence as do you of it either way because MCPS won't release any figures, including the median test scores of the accepted students. You have no idea why they stopped showing those scores, or why they reduced the test from two hours to 30min. I don't have proof, but I can put two and two together.

METIS report recommends "broadening the definition of gifted" and increase the participation of URM in the programs; MCPS wants to close the achievement gap; the tests were changed; they no longer report the median score of accpeted students. What does this all mean? Maybe my assumptions are wrong, but since MCPS wont' communicate the stats or the reasons behind all the change, I use "context clues" to come to my own conclusion. That's fine if you don't want to make any assumptions based on all the changes, and just stick your head in the sand and say, "I'm sure MCPS would never lower the standards to close the achievement gap", but I do question MCPS on this, as do many.

By removing barriers to entry.

Please note that MCPS's admissions standards for the application magnet programs are irrelevant to the achievement gap. MCPS does not measure the achievement gap by participation in magnet programs. MCPS knows this. (Do you?) So why would MCPS try to close the achievement gap by lowering admissions standards for the application magnet programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?

There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?

There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.

+1

Yes. It is almost guaranteed that when this discussion comes up, it will inevitably devolve into a handful of (dare I say RACIST) posters declaring that the "Asians" or "Jews" or "Whites" are being held back or not given a good education due to some trumped up pablum about having to "water down the standards" for the AAs and Hispanics. No one is watering down anything - 100 spots for 3000 test takers - I guarantee you that the people who are chosen, regardless of skin color or ethnicity, will be very, very bright. But, if you are so worried - since there is a strong concentration in the Western part of the county of certain ethnicities, perhaps you can just live there and be with your own "super-bright" cohort - no need to have 45 minute bus ride - you got all the super-bright kids in your own backyard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does lowering the admission bar for magnets close the achievement gap? If this is what MCPS is doing, how will they measure it?

There is no evidence that MCPS is lowering the admission bar for magnets. And even if MCPS were lowering the admission bar for magnets, it wouldn't close the achievement gap. Or even lessen it.

There is an idee fixe among a group of posters on DCUM that MCPS is trying to close the achievement gap by ruining the education of white and Asian-American kids, and many of the posts on this thread are a reflection of this.

+1

Yes. It is almost guaranteed that when this discussion comes up, it will inevitably devolve into a handful of (dare I say RACIST) posters declaring that the "Asians" or "Jews" or "Whites" are being held back or not given a good education due to some trumped up pablum about having to "water down the standards" for the AAs and Hispanics. No one is watering down anything - 100 spots for 3000 test takers - I guarantee you that the people who are chosen, regardless of skin color or ethnicity, will be very, very bright. But, if you are so worried - since there is a strong concentration in the Western part of the county of certain ethnicities, perhaps you can just live there and be with your own "super-bright" cohort - no need to have 45 minute bus ride - you got all the super-bright kids in your own backyard.

I tend to agree. (I mean I do agree with everything you said -- but I do feel this thread has some racist undertones).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Do you understand how statistics works? The average height of a woman is 5'4". The only way to make the average go up is to introduce taller people to the mix, or take the shorter people out. The only way to change the test scores of a group that statiscally scores lower is to.. what? They've tried to get the group's score to go up for *years*. It's not moving much. So, how do they get more of them represented in magnets?

I have zero evidence as do you of it either way because MCPS won't release any figures, including the median test scores of the accepted students. You have no idea why they stopped showing those scores, or why they reduced the test from two hours to 30min. I don't have proof, but I can put two and two together.

METIS report recommends "broadening the definition of gifted" and increase the participation of URM in the programs; MCPS wants to close the achievement gap; the tests were changed; they no longer report the median score of accpeted students. What does this all mean? Maybe my assumptions are wrong, but since MCPS wont' communicate the stats or the reasons behind all the change, I use "context clues" to come to my own conclusion. That's fine if you don't want to make any assumptions based on all the changes, and just stick your head in the sand and say, "I'm sure MCPS would never lower the standards to close the achievement gap", but I do question MCPS on this, as do many.

By removing barriers to entry.

Please note that MCPS's admissions standards for the application magnet programs are irrelevant to the achievement gap. MCPS does not measure the achievement gap by participation in magnet programs. MCPS knows this. (Do you?) So why would MCPS try to close the achievement gap by lowering admissions standards for the application magnet programs?

Well, one barrier would be the reliance on a high test score, so let's look at other factors, ie, "holistic" approach.

Why would MCPS commission a $1mil+ study which recommended "broadening the definition of gifted" and "increasing URM participation" and not follow the recommendations?