Hijab/headscarf for Muslims

[Anonymous]

1000X this. In a weird way, this kind of hijab is a lot more like body piercings or even tattoo's (at least back in the day). It's a form of taking charge of your own identity as a rebellious socio-political statement. It has nothing to do with Islam. What's grating is that many women hide behind the facade of religion, though it obviously has nothing to do with modesty.

I'd say the same is true for niqab (worn in the US), although that's a harsher take.

There is absolutely nothing modest about covering your face in a solid black head-to-toe garb.

I agree with the above about it being a political statement. I have no problem with the head scarf but I must admit that I see the niqab as an aggressive FU. Maybe I am over-sensitive about it because I see it as being so opposed to Western values (freedom, equality of the sexes, open communication, importance of non-verbal cues etc) but it makes me decidedly uncomfortable.

I am in two minds about whether or not it should be banned because you are meant to have freedom of choice in the West. However, seeing as other forms of face coverings are banned in public settings (balaclavas etc), perhaps it would provide an equal playing field for all. It is also not a religious obligation so I feel less inclined to defend it.

[Anonymous]

Driving from NYC to DC this weekend I saw a billboard, clearly aiming to convert Christians to Islam, with a statement along the lines of "they all veil for the same reasons" and pictures of Mary, a nun, and a veiled Muslim woman.

Nope. The Quranic passage is about how women should draw their shawls across their chests to his their beauty. Jesus said nothing about veiling. The passage in St. Paul's letters about veiling brings in some complicated reasoning about how God is the head of man and man is the head of woman, and then winds up with "but if you must know, here's what we do here re veiling." Lots of people think that Paul's letters are more pastoral than to be taken literally, anyway, and that last bit about "here's what we do here" certainly tends to suggest that.

[Anonymous]

As a muslim wearing the scarf, I find it extremely offending and even oppressive for someone to talk about how I should dress up/down. It's my body, my religion, and I am free to practice it. Our first amendment defends freedom of religion, and anyone who does not believe in that amendment is not worthy to be called an American.
While I don't agree with the veil because it's cultural, I have no business to tell people to not wear it. However, with that being said, women were veils need to show their face at airport security, and DMVs (which I am sure all of them do without a problem).

The PP who mentioned the message she saw on the billboard, and just assumed Muslims are trying to convert everyone to Islam is wrong. You misunderstood the message. I see nuns wearing scarves without a problem. Mary was wearing a scarf, then why is it a problem for a Muslim to wear one? It's a personal choice.

Another point, I'd like to bring to your attention is don't assume all Hijabis(women covered) or Muslims are angels. We are human beings, we have flaws, and we do err. So if you see a hijabi doing something wrong, don't generalize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a muslim wearing the scarf, I find it extremely offending and even oppressive for someone to talk about how I should dress up/down. It's my body, my religion, and I am free to practice it. Our first amendment defends freedom of religion, and anyone who does not believe in that amendment is not worthy to be called an American.
While I don't agree with the veil because it's cultural, I have no business to tell people to not wear it. However, with that being said, women were veils need to show their face at airport security, and DMVs (which I am sure all of them do without a problem).

The PP who mentioned the message she saw on the billboard, and just assumed Muslims are trying to convert everyone to Islam is wrong. You misunderstood the message. I see nuns wearing scarves without a problem. Mary was wearing a scarf, then why is it a problem for a Muslim to wear one? It's a personal choice.

Another point, I'd like to bring to your attention is don't assume all Hijabis(women covered) or Muslims are angels. We are human beings, we have flaws, and we do err. So if you see a hijabi doing something wrong, don't generalize.

It's your right to wear whatever you want, and it's our right to have an opinion about it. No need to be offended. Part of the discussion here is whether the hijab actually has anything to do with the requirements of Islam in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a muslim wearing the scarf, I find it extremely offending and even oppressive for someone to talk about how I should dress up/down. It's my body, my religion, and I am free to practice it. Our first amendment defends freedom of religion, and anyone who does not believe in that amendment is not worthy to be called an American.
While I don't agree with the veil because it's cultural, I have no business to tell people to not wear it. However, with that being said, women were veils need to show their face at airport security, and DMVs (which I am sure all of them do without a problem).

The PP who mentioned the message she saw on the billboard, and just assumed Muslims are trying to convert everyone to Islam is wrong. You misunderstood the message. I see nuns wearing scarves without a problem. Mary was wearing a scarf, then why is it a problem for a Muslim to wear one? It's a personal choice.

Another point, I'd like to bring to your attention is don't assume all Hijabis(women covered) or Muslims are angels. We are human beings, we have flaws, and we do err. So if you see a hijabi doing something wrong, don't generalize.

1. OP, who says she wears a scarf, asked in her first post for our opinions. That is why people are expressing their opinions. If you're offended, blame Muslim OP.

2. The discussion about whether it's a religious requirement is very germane. You seem to be arguing that non-Muslims, or even Muslims who disagree with you and don't cover, shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions. But as you say, we're *all* entitled to our opinions. You can't cite the first amendment and then tell everybody else they have no right to opinions.

3. The billboard message's point was that Mary, nuns, and Muslims wear the veil *for the same reason*. That was my post, and the only words on the billboard, besides names under the pictures, were "They wear it for the same reason." That's categorically wrong. As I wrote, Muslims wear it for modesty and the Pauline passage (rejected by many Christians who don't take Paul's words as God's literal words) is about patriarchy.

4. I won't generalize about you if you won't generalize about me (western woman)! It's a deal!

[Anonymous]

Amen to that. Sometimes I think the more rabid hijab wearers come on this forum to solicit views just for the purpose of playing gotcha so they can accuse others of violating their first amendment right to practice free expression and religion.

How fast can you say, "Microaggression!"?

Anyone has the right to wear six inch heels and I have the right to think they are foolish to do so. The first amendment protects people in their free expression, but it is totally neutral as to the value of that expression, a point hijabi wearers playing this game seem to overlook.

You get to wear what you want within limits, but you don't get to say it's immune from criticism because it is religious belief without the basis for your saying so being questioned.

And to be clear, let's not be tiresome about Americans being perverse because some have negative views about the hijab while being fine with people going around half naked--the first amendment does allow for limits based on commonly accepted standards of decency. And please don't tell me that Virginia on other states are in violation of the first amendment because they ban wearing ski masks and other face coverings like the niqab in public for security reasons. See Employment Division v. Smith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a muslim wearing the scarf, I find it extremely offending and even oppressive for someone to talk about how I should dress up/down. It's my body, my religion, and I am free to practice it. Our first amendment defends freedom of religion, and anyone who does not believe in that amendment is not worthy to be called an American.
While I don't agree with the veil because it's cultural, I have no business to tell people to not wear it. However, with that being said, women were veils need to show their face at airport security, and DMVs (which I am sure all of them do without a problem).

The PP who mentioned the message she saw on the billboard, and just assumed Muslims are trying to convert everyone to Islam is wrong. You misunderstood the message. I see nuns wearing scarves without a problem. Mary was wearing a scarf, then why is it a problem for a Muslim to wear one? It's a personal choice.

Another point, I'd like to bring to your attention is don't assume all Hijabis(women covered) or Muslims are angels. We are human beings, we have flaws, and we do err. So if you see a hijabi doing something wrong, don't generalize.

You do realize that the long tunics and loose pants (for men) with head covers are linked to Medieval "desert wear," yes? Those outfits that covered people from head to toe were to protect people from the sun.

Medieval sunscreen

That's all. not a way to praise any supreme being

lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a muslim wearing the scarf, I find it extremely offending and even oppressive for someone to talk about how I should dress up/down. It's my body, my religion, and I am free to practice it. Our first amendment defends freedom of religion, and anyone who does not believe in that amendment is not worthy to be called an American.
While I don't agree with the veil because it's cultural, I have no business to tell people to not wear it. However, with that being said, women were veils need to show their face at airport security, and DMVs (which I am sure all of them do without a problem).

The PP who mentioned the message she saw on the billboard, and just assumed Muslims are trying to convert everyone to Islam is wrong. You misunderstood the message. I see nuns wearing scarves without a problem. Mary was wearing a scarf, then why is it a problem for a Muslim to wear one? It's a personal choice.

Another point, I'd like to bring to your attention is don't assume all Hijabis(women covered) or Muslims are angels. We are human beings, we have flaws, and we do err. So if you see a hijabi doing something wrong, don't generalize.

1. OP, who says she wears a scarf, asked in her first post for our opinions. That is why people are expressing their opinions. If you're offended, blame Muslim OP.

2. The discussion about whether it's a religious requirement is very germane. You seem to be arguing that non-Muslims, or even Muslims who disagree with you and don't cover, shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions. But as you say, we're *all* entitled to our opinions. You can't cite the first amendment and then tell everybody else they have no right to opinions.

3. The billboard message's point was that Mary, nuns, and Muslims wear the veil *for the same reason*. That was my post, and the only words on the billboard, besides names under the pictures, were "They wear it for the same reason." That's categorically wrong. As I wrote, Muslims wear it for modesty and the Pauline passage (rejected by many Christians who don't take Paul's words as God's literal words) is about patriarchy.

4. I won't generalize about you if you won't generalize about me (western woman)! It's a deal!

Muslim women veil for various reasons, as do nuns and Mary, and if someone wants to make an argument that this reason may be the same, then I'm sure it's possible. Let's not fake theological expertise where none exists. It's not a matter of right and wrong because religion isn't; it's either a plausible argument or a bad one. In this case, I'm sure, a plausible theory can be advanced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a muslim wearing the scarf, I find it extremely offending and even oppressive for someone to talk about how I should dress up/down. It's my body, my religion, and I am free to practice it. Our first amendment defends freedom of religion, and anyone who does not believe in that amendment is not worthy to be called an American.
While I don't agree with the veil because it's cultural, I have no business to tell people to not wear it. However, with that being said, women were veils need to show their face at airport security, and DMVs (which I am sure all of them do without a problem).

The PP who mentioned the message she saw on the billboard, and just assumed Muslims are trying to convert everyone to Islam is wrong. You misunderstood the message. I see nuns wearing scarves without a problem. Mary was wearing a scarf, then why is it a problem for a Muslim to wear one? It's a personal choice.

Another point, I'd like to bring to your attention is don't assume all Hijabis(women covered) or Muslims are angels. We are human beings, we have flaws, and we do err. So if you see a hijabi doing something wrong, don't generalize.

1. OP, who says she wears a scarf, asked in her first post for our opinions. That is why people are expressing their opinions. If you're offended, blame Muslim OP.

2. The discussion about whether it's a religious requirement is very germane. You seem to be arguing that non-Muslims, or even Muslims who disagree with you and don't cover, shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions. But as you say, we're *all* entitled to our opinions. You can't cite the first amendment and then tell everybody else they have no right to opinions.

3. The billboard message's point was that Mary, nuns, and Muslims wear the veil *for the same reason*. That was my post, and the only words on the billboard, besides names under the pictures, were "They wear it for the same reason." That's categorically wrong. As I wrote, Muslims wear it for modesty and the Pauline passage (rejected by many Christians who don't take Paul's words as God's literal words) is about patriarchy.

4. I won't generalize about you if you won't generalize about me (western woman)! It's a deal!

Muslim women veil for various reasons, as do nuns and Mary, and if someone wants to make an argument that this reason may be the same, then I'm sure it's possible. Let's not fake theological expertise where none exists. It's not a matter of right and wrong because religion isn't; it's either a plausible argument or a bad one. In this case, I'm sure, a plausible theory can be advanced.

Don't be ridiculous. You can't possibly know whether Mary veiled for the same reason as today's Muslim women, and I doubt you know much about nuns either. Nor do the creators of that sign. Even your own words above betray you, when you talk about how women veil for "various reasons". When you find proof positive of Mary's personal reasons for veiling 2000 years ago, then come back here and talk to us.

On the other hand, the texts of the two holy books are plain. Nobody has to fake expertise when they can simply read the texts.

You, however, seem to support fakers who claim, with no apparent first-hand knowledge or experience, to know what Mary and nuns are thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Muslim women veil for various reasons, as do nuns and Mary, and if someone wants to make an argument that this reason may be the same, then I'm sure it's possible. Let's not fake theological expertise where none exists. It's not a matter of right and wrong because religion isn't; it's either a plausible argument or a bad one. In this case, I'm sure, a plausible theory can be advanced.

This has to be one of the lamest pieces of reasoning I've read on DCUM in a while. Just because "someone wants to make an argument" is no reason for a thinking person to be "sure it's possible." For Pete's sake, the public sphere is filled with all sorts of demagogues (Trump), liars, and ignoramouses.

You also provide no reason for why you're so "sure a plausible theory can be advanced". Presumably you can't because you, like the authors of that billboard, have zero insight or knowledge about nuns and Mary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Muslim women veil for various reasons, as do nuns and Mary, and if someone wants to make an argument that this reason may be the same, then I'm sure it's possible. Let's not fake theological expertise where none exists. It's not a matter of right and wrong because religion isn't; it's either a plausible argument or a bad one. In this case, I'm sure, a plausible theory can be advanced.

This has to be one of the lamest pieces of reasoning I've read on DCUM in a while. Just because "someone wants to make an argument" is no reason for a thinking person to be "sure it's possible." For Pete's sake, the public sphere is filled with all sorts of demagogues (Trump), liars, and ignoramouses.

You also provide no reason for why you're so "sure a plausible theory can be advanced". Presumably you can't because you, like the authors of that billboard, have zero insight or knowledge about nuns and Mary.

Who can possibly have insight into anyone's innermost mind? Who can really even know if this person existed? It's all a legend anyway. People develop claims and air them. That's all there is to it. You are looking for accuracy and proof in a field where none can be had.

PS: A person aching to accuse others of ignorance would be well served by learning to spell "ignoramus" first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Don't be ridiculous. You can't possibly know whether Mary veiled for the same reason as today's Muslim women, and I doubt you know much about nuns either. Nor do the creators of that sign. Even your own words above betray you, when you talk about how women veil for "various reasons". When you find proof positive of Mary's personal reasons for veiling 2000 years ago, then come back here and talk to us.

On the other hand, the texts of the two holy books are plain. Nobody has to fake expertise when they can simply read the texts.

You, however, seem to support fakers who claim, with no apparent first-hand knowledge or experience, to know what Mary and nuns are thinking.

No one can really know anything about why anyone does things and what anyone thinks, especially imaginary religious figures. We don't know why today's Muslim women veil because every woman has her own reasons. The hadith don't tell us WHY she has to cover, just that she has to. The why is up to her.

The words "accuracy" and "proof" do not apply to the field of religious thought. It's all a claim. That's what the billboard is. Could they have veiled for the same reason? Who knows, maybe someone can make that argument. Can anyone say with 100% accuracy that they DIDN'T? No. Because it's a field of smoke and mirrors, and legends and stories and pretend people.

[Anonymous]

The hijab is a sign of oppression just like s burning cross

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Amen to that. Sometimes I think the more rabid hijab wearers come on this forum to solicit views just for the purpose of playing gotcha so they can accuse others of violating their first amendment right to practice free expression and religion.

How fast can you say, "Microaggression!"?

Anyone has the right to wear six inch heels and I have the right to think they are foolish to do so. The first amendment protects people in their free expression, but it is totally neutral as to the value of that expression, a point hijabi wearers playing this game seem to overlook.

You get to wear what you want within limits, but you don't get to say it's immune from criticism because it is religious belief without the basis for your saying so being questioned.

And to be clear, let's not be tiresome about Americans being perverse because some have negative views about the hijab while being fine with people going around half naked--the first amendment does allow for limits based on commonly accepted standards of decency. And please don't tell me that Virginia on other states are in violation of the first amendment because they ban wearing ski masks and other face coverings like the niqab in public for security reasons. See Employment Division v. Smith.

Niqab is prohibited in VA? why do I see women at Tysons and Fair Oaks mall wearing it then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Muslim women veil for various reasons, as do nuns and Mary, and if someone wants to make an argument that this reason may be the same, then I'm sure it's possible. Let's not fake theological expertise where none exists. It's not a matter of right and wrong because religion isn't; it's either a plausible argument or a bad one. In this case, I'm sure, a plausible theory can be advanced.

This has to be one of the lamest pieces of reasoning I've read on DCUM in a while. Just because "someone wants to make an argument" is no reason for a thinking person to be "sure it's possible." For Pete's sake, the public sphere is filled with all sorts of demagogues (Trump), liars, and ignoramouses.

You also provide no reason for why you're so "sure a plausible theory can be advanced". Presumably you can't because you, like the authors of that billboard, have zero insight or knowledge about nuns and Mary.

Who can possibly have insight into anyone's innermost mind? Who can really even know if this person existed? It's all a legend anyway. People develop claims and air them. That's all there is to it. You are looking for accuracy and proof in a field where none can be had.

PS: A person aching to accuse others of ignorance would be well served by learning to spell "ignoramus" first.

Well that's the point, isn't it. People develop claims and air them, even when they have no evidence. Like the billboard designers who, you seem to agree, have no evidence. No need to accuse other posters who criticize the billboard of looking for evidence, because they seem to share your view that there's no evidence. Yeesh. Can we move on, are we done now?