Hijab/headscarf for Muslims

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It doesn't bother me, it amuses me. I really don't understand your position of "should we accept this". We? You and whose army? No one is asking you to accept it, or to approve of it, or do it, or really be anything in relation to it. You are asking about reasons pertaining to a group of people that are wholly alien to you. Your approval, or lack thereof, or indeed your desire to fight till the day you die, means nothing to the Muslim community. I honestly don't understand why you are bringing your personal feelings into it as if they matter to Muslims. They don't. If you fight and die tomorrow, it will make zero difference. Is it important to you as a woman and a feminist to treat women equally? Ok. Treat women equally. There is nothing you can do to force anyone else to become you.

If this is your amused, I would hate to see you upset.

Let's recap: this is a discussion, and you have popped up protesting the discussion, but don't really want to participate or debate. And now you are saying "Muslims don't care what you think." But obviously, if you are Muslim, you care what I think, because you keep responding. You are simultaneously trying to distance yourself from the conversation and shut it down. It's not going to work.

These issues are important to discuss. It's a silly anonymous forum. You don't have to participate. And as a society, it is important that we figure out what parts of an ideology are acceptable and what are not. Many Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, but the larger society has decided that's no longer acceptable. It took a long time and a lot of work for our culture to reach the point where we decided that women are not objects or property and we're not even 100% there yet.

I'm not Muslim but I know the community really well. There are many ways to participate in a discussion, and telling you when you say stupid things is one of them. Your position is incredibly pompous and infused with a whole lotta importance where none can be had.

What do you mean, "as a society"? Say you decide parts of Islam aren't acceptable? Exactly how do you plan to go around and make your "decision" known? Islam doesn't care what you decide, and neither do Muslims. Do you think what you decide or don't decide means anything? Yes, many Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, and the larger society can't do anything to change that. The "larger society" has no power to stop making something a sin in people's minds simply because it doesn't deal in this currency. You can outlaw discrimination but you cannot change what people think in their hearts. If some Muslim women decide to cover, what you think or decide on the position of women in society is utterly meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

No, that's not the goal. Islam wants its adherents to be modest but not to avoid attention. It's to avoid attention for the wrong reasons. In a country where everyone wears a bikini day in and day out, Muslims are still required to cover, despite the fact that it will make them very obvious. One reason is to cover the parts that should be uncovered only to close family members. The other reason is to be known as Muslims. There is nothing in Islam to say that you should wear only the clothing that makes you unnoticeable.

Yes, that is the goal. There's a vast middle ground between wearing a bikini all day every day, and covering yourself from head to toe, all day every day.

What does it matter if a family member sees your hair? Do you think being family stops some people from molesting or raping family members? It does nothing. It's a symbolic excuse that does nothing.

The Quran says to cover your "ornaments" - so be simple and don't go around flashing your genitals to people. And yes, there are many verses in the Quran that suggest not being ostentatious (which does not mean covered up - it means 'don't stick out') in how you present yourself, while not hiding being a Muslim. The problem is many people interpret this into extremes (ie, your bikini example). There's a vast, completely healthy and faithful middle ground.

You misunderstood. Muslims are expected to be modest and not ostentatious, but the standard is not "so that you are not noticed." That is, if the dress code of the country where a Muslim happens to be is such that full coverage will draw attention - a lot of attention - the same rule of clothing still applies.

It doesn't matter if a family member sees your hair. It's a ritual, a symbol. Religions are full of them, that's the Muslim one.

Oh honey, I did not "misunderstand." Even many religious Muslims understand that "modesty" is not bound to timelessness and universality, but is something that requires constant adaption to circumstances.

And yes, it's a ritual, and all religions have them - that does not mean that the logicality cannot (or should not) be questioned. If you want to go through the ritual motions without engaging them, by all means do so. But that doesn't mean others don't have a right to question things in an educated, modern, society. Even being religious, one can practice a "living" religion, as opposed to one shut, closed, and static.

I'm not your honey.

It doesn't matter what the outsiders question. It has to come from the inside of the community to matter. Muslims don't answer to you so don't pretend like they do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not your honey.

It doesn't matter what the outsiders question. It has to come from the inside of the community to matter. Muslims don't answer to you so don't pretend like they do.

Not that PP, but
1. OP asked what outsiders think, and
2. even without OP's express invitation, outsiders are allowed to have opinions and to express them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It doesn't bother me, it amuses me. I really don't understand your position of "should we accept this". We? You and whose army? No one is asking you to accept it, or to approve of it, or do it, or really be anything in relation to it. You are asking about reasons pertaining to a group of people that are wholly alien to you. Your approval, or lack thereof, or indeed your desire to fight till the day you die, means nothing to the Muslim community. I honestly don't understand why you are bringing your personal feelings into it as if they matter to Muslims. They don't. If you fight and die tomorrow, it will make zero difference. Is it important to you as a woman and a feminist to treat women equally? Ok. Treat women equally. There is nothing you can do to force anyone else to become you.

If this is your amused, I would hate to see you upset.

Let's recap: this is a discussion, and you have popped up protesting the discussion, but don't really want to participate or debate. And now you are saying "Muslims don't care what you think." But obviously, if you are Muslim, you care what I think, because you keep responding. You are simultaneously trying to distance yourself from the conversation and shut it down. It's not going to work.

These issues are important to discuss. It's a silly anonymous forum. You don't have to participate. And as a society, it is important that we figure out what parts of an ideology are acceptable and what are not. Many Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, but the larger society has decided that's no longer acceptable. It took a long time and a lot of work for our culture to reach the point where we decided that women are not objects or property and we're not even 100% there yet.

I'm not Muslim but I know the community really well. There are many ways to participate in a discussion, and telling you when you say stupid things is one of them. Your position is incredibly pompous and infused with a whole lotta importance where none can be had.

What do you mean, "as a society"? Say you decide parts of Islam aren't acceptable? Exactly how do you plan to go around and make your "decision" known? Islam doesn't care what you decide, and neither do Muslims. Do you think what you decide or don't decide means anything? Yes, many Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, and the larger society can't do anything to change that. The "larger society" has no power to stop making something a sin in people's minds simply because it doesn't deal in this currency. You can outlaw discrimination but you cannot change what people think in their hearts. If some Muslim women decide to cover, what you think or decide on the position of women in society is utterly meaningless.

Actually, no, insulting people over and over is not a way to participate in a discussion, and you're getting repetitive anyway. Since you know the Muslim community "really well," maybe you could recruit some people to help you with basic manners and civility.

[Anonymous]

I pity any Muslim woman who wears a head scarf or anything covering her body in the name of religion. It's disgusting and I do think of them as less educated, less tolerant, and someone I can't trust in the long term. It's also,oppressive to them. Men don't do anything in the name of modesty but women have to? I unfortunately will never hire anyone who wears a headscarf. Religion should always be a private thing. And I do not condone a religion that refuses to accommodate itself to the Western society that many of its people now live in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I pity any Muslim woman who wears a head scarf or anything covering her body in the name of religion. It's disgusting and I do think of them as less educated, less tolerant, and someone I can't trust in the long term. It's also,oppressive to them. Men don't do anything in the name of modesty but women have to? I unfortunately will never hire anyone who wears a headscarf. Religion should always be a private thing. And I do not condone a religion that refuses to accommodate itself to the Western society that many of its people now live in.

I am not fond of the hijab and question its authenticity since it did not exist before the 1980's. I am very intolerant of any argument for it along the lines of my religion requires it. No a thousand times it does not.

However, there are many reasons for wearing it and I wouldn't want to make assumptions that put the wearer in a bad light. There are some whose families would not let them work unless they wear the hijab, for example. I definitely would not want to discriminate against these women who are doing everything within their constraints to be productive members of society.

[Anonymous]

Muslims do not assimilate as easily as Europeans or some Asians, said Denmark’s culture minister, Bertel Haarder, partly because, as he put it, their patriarchal culture frowns on women working outside the home and often constrains freedom of speech.

“It’s not racism to be aware of the difference — it’s stupid not to be aware,” Mr. Haarder said. “We do them a blessing by being very clear and outspoken as to what kind of country they have come to, what are our basic values.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/world/europe/denmark-migrants-refugees-racism.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I pity any Muslim woman who wears a head scarf or anything covering her body in the name of religion. It's disgusting and I do think of them as less educated, less tolerant, and someone I can't trust in the long term. It's also,oppressive to them. Men don't do anything in the name of modesty but women have to? I unfortunately will never hire anyone who wears a headscarf. Religion should always be a private thing. And I do not condone a religion that refuses to accommodate itself to the Western society that many of its people now live in.

I am not fond of the hijab and question its authenticity since it did not exist before the 1980's. I am very intolerant of any argument for it along the lines of my religion requires it. No a thousand times it does not.

However, there are many reasons for wearing it and I wouldn't want to make assumptions that put the wearer in a bad light. There are some whose families would not let them work unless they wear the hijab, for example. I definitely would not want to discriminate against these women who are doing everything within their constraints to be productive members of society.

Muslim women covered their heads since wayyyyy before the 1980s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I pity any Muslim woman who wears a head scarf or anything covering her body in the name of religion. It's disgusting and I do think of them as less educated, less tolerant, and someone I can't trust in the long term. It's also,oppressive to them. Men don't do anything in the name of modesty but women have to? I unfortunately will never hire anyone who wears a headscarf. Religion should always be a private thing. And I do not condone a religion that refuses to accommodate itself to the Western society that many of its people now live in.

I trust you extend the same policy toward Jewish men in yarmulkas and anyone Christian with a visible cross necklace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I pity any Muslim woman who wears a head scarf or anything covering her body in the name of religion. It's disgusting and I do think of them as less educated, less tolerant, and someone I can't trust in the long term. It's also,oppressive to them. Men don't do anything in the name of modesty but women have to? I unfortunately will never hire anyone who wears a headscarf. Religion should always be a private thing. And I do not condone a religion that refuses to accommodate itself to the Western society that many of its people now live in.

I am not fond of the hijab and question its authenticity since it did not exist before the 1980's. I am very intolerant of any argument for it along the lines of my religion requires it. No a thousand times it does not.

However, there are many reasons for wearing it and I wouldn't want to make assumptions that put the wearer in a bad light. There are some whose families would not let them work unless they wear the hijab, for example. I definitely would not want to discriminate against these women who are doing everything within their constraints to be productive members of society.

Muslim women covered their heads since wayyyyy before the 1980s.

But not specifically with the hijab, which is very recent innovation. Veils were worn before but there was no compulsiveness about covering every wisp of hair as with the hijab. In some countries headscarves were pretty common before the hijab, but quite a bit of hair showed. Head coverings are okay by me, but the idea that showing any wisp of hair makes you a less than Muslim is ridiculous from many points of view, including theological.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I pity any Muslim woman who wears a head scarf or anything covering her body in the name of religion. It's disgusting and I do think of them as less educated, less tolerant, and someone I can't trust in the long term. It's also,oppressive to them. Men don't do anything in the name of modesty but women have to? I unfortunately will never hire anyone who wears a headscarf. Religion should always be a private thing. And I do not condone a religion that refuses to accommodate itself to the Western society that many of its people now live in.

I am not fond of the hijab and question its authenticity since it did not exist before the 1980's. I am very intolerant of any argument for it along the lines of my religion requires it. No a thousand times it does not.

However, there are many reasons for wearing it and I wouldn't want to make assumptions that put the wearer in a bad light. There are some whose families would not let them work unless they wear the hijab, for example. I definitely would not want to discriminate against these women who are doing everything within their constraints to be productive members of society.

Muslim women covered their heads since wayyyyy before the 1980s.

But not specifically with the hijab, which is very recent innovation. Veils were worn before but there was no compulsiveness about covering every wisp of hair as with the hijab. In some countries headscarves were pretty common before the hijab, but quite a bit of hair showed. Head coverings are okay by me, but the idea that showing any wisp of hair makes you a less than Muslim is ridiculous from many points of view, including theological.

Different poster here. Which is why I think this current form of hijab may not last. It makes a great identity and political statement, but this fear of a wisp of hair showing is not mandated in the context of the Quran or Hadith.

[Anonymous]

I'm a feminist and I don't agree with dictating to women what they can and cannot wear. The images from France of the (male) police telling women to take off their burkinis are chilling... simply chilling.

That said, I deeply resent what I see as a patriarchal impulse to have women be covered while men do not have to cover.

THAT said, when a PP says, "And as a society, it is important that we figure out what parts of an ideology are acceptable and what are not".... are you suggesting that it would ever be OK for us, "as a society" to decide that head coverings are not acceptable? How do you enforce that? If I, an atheist, wear a scarf on my head because It's cold, or humid, it is OK for the police to come disrobe me??? Do we want to live in a society where law enforcement decides what's acceptable garb for women, and what isn't? Because that reminds me of something.... oh yeah... the TALIBAN.