Why Some People Convert to Islam
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Anonymous
The staging of pregnancy is completely arbitrary, three, four or nine. Besides, what of competing quranic theories that we're made of clay, dust, earth, water? |
Anonymous
The Quran 76:2 states: " Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight." The word used in the Quran is nutfah. The Quran is clear in saying man is not created by simply a sperm drop; he is created by "mingled sperm," meaning it is mixed with something else. |
Anonymous
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It doesn't say what it is mixed WITH. And that mingled bit is mentioned only once vs. multiple mentions of sperm. The egg is not a liquid element. It can't be 'mixed' with sperm.
The Quran is quite specific when it wants to be - like in the parts that deal with inheritance. The sperm is mentioned in the Quran several times; the egg, never. The more logical explanation is that whoever wrote it went by what they could see with a naked eye - i.e. the sperm. Plus, there are all these competing theories - dust, clay, earth, water, nothing. Sperm is but one idea. |
Anonymous
For those who don't know who Moore or Needham are here are their respective biographies and people can decide who was more qualified to cast judgment on the accuracy of the Quran. Moore's textbooks were used in medical schools throughout the US. Moore examined the Quran and it's translation. Dr. Keith Moore: Keith L. Moore, BA, MSC, PhD, DSC (HON), FIAC, FRSM, FAAA, is an internationally recognized leader in the teaching of human anatomy and embryology. He has revolutionized the field of medicine for more than 60 years through his innovative research. His investigation in the causes of birth defects led to major advances in how physicians screen for and diagnose several genetic conditions. Dr. Moore is a professor emeritus in the Division of Anatomy within the Department of Surgery’s Faculty of Medicine, at the University of Toronto. He has contributed to numerous publications and texts, which include The Developing Human, in its ninth edition, and Before We are Born, which is in its eighth edition. - See more at: http://elsevierauthors.com/keithmoore/#sthash.9d2LCNDe.dpuf Moore has co-written (with Professor Arthur F. Dalley and Professor Anne M. R. Agur) Clinically Oriented Anatomy, an English-language anatomy textbook.[5] He also co-wrote (with Professor Anne M. R. Agur and Professor Arthur F. Dalley) Essential Clinical Anatomy. The American Association of Clinical Anatomists awarded Dr. Moore, the previous president, with their Honored Member Award (in 1994).[7][8] The American Association of Anatomists awarded him the Henry Gray/Elsevier Distinguished Educator Award in 2007 for human anatomy education in the anatomical sciences.[2][3][9] The Queens Diamond Jubilee Medal was awarded to Dr. Moore in Barrie in 2012 [10] Member of the Canadian Association of Anatomists since 1954; Former Secretary and later President Member of the American Association of Anatomists since 1955 Consultant in Anatomy and Embryology, Honorary Attending Staff, Children’s Hospital, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada 1959–1976 Member of the Advisory Board of the journal Acta Cytologica 1960–1990. Member of the Board of Consultants of the International Academy of Gynaecological Cytology since 1961 Member of the Senate of the University of Manitoba , Winnipeg Manitoba 1966–1976 Fellow of the International Academy of Cytology (FIAC) since 1968 Member of the Executive Committee of the Senate of the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg Manitoba 1970–1976 American Medical Writers Association Award for “excellence in medical publications as represented by his book “The Developing Human” 1974 American Medical Writers Association Awarded Honourable Mention for his book Clinically Oriented Anatomy 1981 Founding member of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists; Vice President and later President 1983 J.C.B. Grant Award , the highest honour given by the Canadian Association of Anatomists in recognition of “meritorious and outstanding scholarly accomplishments in the field of anatomical services” 1984 Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine (FRSM) London England 1985 Associate Editor of the Clinical Anatomy Journal since 1986 Member of the National Board of Medical Examiners of the United States of America, the first Canadian to be appointed to this prestigious board. The certificate was presented “in appreciation of the valuable contribution to the work of the board and the preparation of examinations for American and Canadian Medical schools” 1988–1992 Member of the Federative International Committee on Anatomical Terminology for 20 years, the only Canadian ever appointed to this prestigious committee. The aim of this committee is “to present the official terminology of the anatomical sciences after consultation with all 55 members of the International Federation of Associations of Anatomy, thus insuring a democratic input to the terminology”. The terms are translated into several languages so that all anatomists and doctors can use the recommended terms 1989–2009 American Medical Writers Association First Place Award for medical books in the Physicians Category as represented by the book Clinically Oriented Anatomy 1993 Honoured Member of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists (AACA), the highest honour given by the association for scholarship and service. The recognition is for “outstanding contributions to the field of Clinical Anatomy, epitomized by his many textbooks on clinically- oriented gross anatomy and embryology, and many years of dedicated service to the AACA and its journal, Clinical Anatomy” 1994. Very Eminent Professor Award in Commemoration of 100 Years of Independence of Panama and the School of Medicine Panama City, Panama 2003 Fellow of the American Association of Anatomists . This Fellowship honours distinguished members who have demonstrated excellence in science and overall contributions to the medical sciences 2008. The University of Costa Rica, Faculty of Medicine in San Jose designated Dr. Moore as a “Maestro De La Anatomia De America” 2008 Honoured Member of the Italian Society of Anatomy and Histology in recognition of his scientific and academic curriculum 2009 Awarded the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal. The Medal is awarded to those who have made significant contributions and achievements in Canada. The medal was created to mark the celebrations of the 60th anniversary of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II’s accession to the Throne as Queen of Canada, 2012 Joseph Needham: Noel Joseph Terence Montgomery Needham, CH, FRS,[1] FBA (/?ni?d?m/; 9 December 1900 – 24 March 1995), also known as Li Yuese (simplified Chinese: ???; traditional Chinese: ???; pinyin: L? Yu?sè: Wade–Giles: Li Yüeh-Sê), was a British scientist, historian and sinologist known for his scientific research and writing on the history of Chinese science. He was elected a fellow of the Royal Society in 1941,[2] and as a fellow of the British Academy in 1971.[3] In 1992, the Queen conferred on him the Companionship of Honour and the Royal Society noted he was the only living person to hold these three titles.[4]Needham was educated at Oundle School founded in 1556 in Northamptonshire, before receiving his bachelor's degree in 1921 from the University of Cambridge, master's degree in January 1925 and doctorate in October 1925. He had intended to study medicine but came under the influence of Frederick Gowland Hopkins and switched to Biochemistry.After graduation, he worked in Hopkins' laboratory at Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge, specialising in embryology and morphogenesis. His three-volume work Chemical Embryology, published in 1931, includes a history of embryology from Egyptian times up to the early 19th century, including quotations in most European languages. His Silliman memorial lecture of 1936 was published by Yale University under the title of Order and Life.[5] In 1939 he produced a massive work on morphogenesis that a Harvard reviewer claimed "will go down in the history of science as Joseph Needham's magnum opus", little knowing what would come later.[6] Although his career as biochemist and an academic was well established, his career developed in unanticipated directions during and after World War II. Three Chinese scientists came to work with Needham in 1937: Lu Gwei-djen (Chinese: ???; pinyin: Lu Gui-zhen), Wang Ying-lai (???) and Chen Shi-zhang (???). Lu (1904–91), daughter of a Nanjingese pharmacist, taught Needham Chinese, igniting his interest in China's ancient technological and scientific past. He then pursued, and mastered, the study of Classical Chinese privately with Gustav Haloun.[7] Under the Royal Society's direction, Needham was the director of the Sino-British Science Co-operation Office in Chongqing from 1942 to 1946. During this time he made several long journeys through war-torn China and many smaller ones, visiting scientific and educational establishments and obtaining for them much needed supplies. His longest trip ended in far west in Xinjiang at the caves in Dunhuang at the end of the Great Wall where the first printed copy of the Diamond Sutra was found. The other long trip reached Fuzhou on the east coast, returning across the Xiang River just two days before the Japanese blew up the bridge at Hengyang and cut off that part of China. In 1944 he visited Yunnan in an attempt to reach the Burmese border. Everywhere he went he purchased and was given old historical and scientific books which he shipped back to Britain through diplomatic channels and were to form the foundation of his later research. He got to know Zhou Enlai and met numerous Chinese scholars, including the painter Wu Zuoren (???), and the meteorologist Zhu Kezhen who later sent crates of books to him in Cambridge, including the 2,000 volumes of the Gujin Tushu Jicheng encyclopaedia, a comprehensive record of China's past.[8]On his return to Europe, he was asked by Julian Huxley to become the first head of the Natural Sciences Section of UNESCO in Paris, France. In fact it was Needham who insisted that science should be included in the organisation's mandate at an earlier planning meeting. After two years in which the suspicions of the Americans over scientific co-operation with communists intensified, Needham resigned in 1948 and returned to Gonville and Caius College, where he resumed his fellowship and his rooms, which were soon filled with his books. He devoted his energy to the history of Chinese science until his retirement in 1990, even though he continued to teach some biochemistry until 1966. Needham's reputation recovered from the Korean affair (see wikipedia) such that by 1959 he was elected as president of the fellows of Caius College and in 1965 he became master (head) of the College, a post which he held until he was 76. In 1961, Needham was awarded the George Sarton Medal by the History of Science Society and in 1966 he became Master of Gonville and Caius College. In 1984, Needham became the fourth recipient of the J.D. Bernal Award, awarded by the Society for Social Studies of Science. In 1990, he was awarded the Fukuoka Asian Culture Prize by Fukuoka City. The Needham Research Institute, devoted to the study of China's scientific history, was opened in 1985 by Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. Order of the Companions of Honour, 1992.[4] British Academy, 1971.[3] Royal Society, 1941.[2] |
Anonymous
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The topic here is why some people convert to Islam. There may be many reasons.
But I really, really doubt that anyone has ever been convinced in the rightness of Islam because some obscure lines from the Koran could be read, with a lot of imagination, to predict the stages of embryo development. Just give that one up already. You sound like someone who believes Nostradamus predicted every catastrophe since his time. And here are some tips: You will not convince anyone of the truth of Islam by long quotes from the Koran, Hadith, Muslim scholars, etc. written in out dated English. Nor by posting 56 minute You Tube videos of converts. (Haven't any of these people heard of an elevator speech?) Backing up what you say by quotes from someone or other from this Council or that is also extremely unconvincing, and attacking other posters because they are not Islamic scholars (or descendents of Mohammed or members of the Saudi royal family) wins you no friends. I would say similar things to a Christian who is trying to defend his faith as well. Attempts to prove the veracity of Islam by debunking Christianity is also a poor strategy. All that shows is that you can't defend Islam on its own terms. It is also offensive to use Allah instead of God, the translation of Allah in English, when writing in English. Islam believes in monotheism and that the God it worships is the same as the God the Jews and Christians worship. Using Allah instead of God implies another god, which is heretical to Islam. What would be interesting: Your personal views, informed by Islam but without all the tedious scripture quotes, on the nature of God and man, the concept of sin and the soul, attitudes to the poor and oppressed, etc. Let us see some of your personal religious thought here, not what you've been taught to regurgitate. |
Anonymous
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I think you forgot to paste the final bit from wikipedia's description of Dr. Moore, didn't you?
In 1980 Dr. Moore was invited to Saudi Arabia to lecture on anatomy and embryology at King Abdulaziz University. While he was there, Moore was approached by the Embryology Committee of King Abdulaziz University for his assistance in interpreting certain verses in the Qur’an and some sayings in the Hadiths which referred to human reproduction and embryological development. Moore says that he was amazed at the scientific accuracy of some of the statements which were made in the 7th century AD: For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them interpret the many statements in the Qur’an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established.[11] Moore worked with the Embryology Committee on a comparative study of the Qur’an, the Hadith and modern embryology.[12] The Committee presented and published several papers with Moore and others co-authoring a number of papers. [13] Moore is not a Muslim[14] but his work with King Abdulaziz University's Embryology Committee has been rejected by some biologists such as PZ Myers. [15] In 2002, Moore declined to be interviewed by the Wall Street Journal on the subject of his work on Islam, stating that "it's been ten or eleven years since I was involved in the Qur'an." [16] KSA has been funding Islam-friendly physicians for years and has been actively looking for ways to get them to say things they can use. It is worth noting that Dr Moore never formally converted to Islam. I guess there are some things even Al-Saud can't buy. |
Anonymous
Actually the stages of pregnancy (or three trimesters) are not arbitrary at all. http://www.ucsfhealth.org/conditions/pregnancy/trimesters.html USCF Medical Center states, "Pregnancy has three trimesters, each of which is marked by specific fetal developments." About Health states, "Each pregnancy is divided into three trimesters. These three trimesters have different emotional and physical happenings that make them unique." http://pregnancy.about.com/od/trimesterguide/f/3trimesters.htm The changes in each trimester are significant and differentiated. Johns Hopkins Medicine states, "The most dramatic changes and development occur during the first trimester. During the first eight weeks, a fetus is called an embryo. The embryo develops rapidly and by the end of the first trimester it becomes a fetus that is fully formed.." http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/pregnancy_and_childbirth/first_trimester_85,P01218/ Moreover, it was critical for scientists and embryologists to understand WHY the first trimester was so important. Johns Hopkins Medicine explains why: "The fetus is most vulnerable during the first 12 weeks. During this period of time, all of the major organs and body systems are forming and can be damaged if the fetus is exposed to drugs, German measles, radiation, tobacco, and chemical and toxic substances." Thus, educating the mother on healthy practices early in the life of a fetus increases the chances of a healthy baby. But the other trimestes are aso important because Johns Hopkins says, "Even though the organs and body systems are fully formed by the end of 12 weeks, the fetus cannot survive independently." So -- no, the three trimesters are not arbitrary and irrelevant at all. As far the hadith about the 40 some days significance, we will come to that after this discussion is resolved. |
Anonymous
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Thanks for laying to rest this whole ridiculous discussion on the Koran and embryology, and the countless back and forths on Dr. Moore.
Logic: 1. The Koran can be interpreted to have anticipated much of what we have later learned about embryology. 2. The rightness of the Koran and hadith about emryology was confirmed by a western doctor no one's heard of. 3. Because the Koran is right on embryology everything else in it must be true. 4. Because what the Koran says is true it must be the word of God and Islam is the one true religion. The childish logic here is a reflection of the lack of critical thinking (and even discouragement of it) in Arab and Muslim educational curriculum today. The further intellectually immature feature of this line of argument is the view that backing statements up with reams of quotes from anyone who sounds like he may authoritative makes the arguments more convincing. Instead, of course, it weakens the argument, as it is an up front admission it doesn't stand on its own. All the arguments that have gone on in this thread in defense of Islam tell you all you need to know about the sate of intellectual thinking in Islam today. How far it has declined from the days of A;Biruni and Ibn Tufayl! |
Anonymous
Oops! I was too slow as a comment intervened from the one who believes the Koran is true because it amazingly can be read to set forth the three stages of pregnancy centuries before Roe v. Wade! Please let us consider this whole embryology issue closed. And please let us not open a debate on 40 days unless it is a truly learned discussion on why 40 days is so ubiquitous in Semitic scripture. Please tell us in a few brief sentences with no quotations the following: I am a Muslim because.... |
Anonymous
I will address your points, one by one, because it is important for DCUMers to see the fallacy of your arguments and how you twist and writhe to get out of tight corners: You said, "It is worth noting that Dr Moore never formally converted to Islam. I guess there are some things even Al-Saud can't buy.." First of all, once again, I repeat -- whether a person converts or not is not indicative of the truth or falsity of Islam. Recall our discussion about Dr. Jerald Dirks (the ordained Deacon, graduate of Harvard Divinity School) who researched original manuscripts and learned that concepts such as divinity and trinity were add ons to the faith due to geo-political strife during the time, that Jesus himself never taught this. Just as he saw those documents so must have many other seminarians. Not all convert, however, even though they, too, saw evidence that seem to suggest significant parts of Christianity were indeed doctored. As I said before, it takes a special kind of fortitude to convert upon learning the truth because they may suffer backlash from converting. Here, in this situation with Dr. Moore, he clearly and unequivocally acknowledged the miraculous nature of the Quran, as far as identifying important aspects of fetal development, at a time when even the microscope wasn't invented and no one else, not Hippocrates, Galen, the Chinese, or the Romans wrote about. That is sufficient to prove that in his expert opinion, the Quran was accurate. This implies the verses were divinely inspired and science simply validated it. Dr. Moore doesn't need to convert to Islam because he already validated it with science. Besides, when I provided the example of Dr. Dirks, you said one person's conversion was irrelevant and not indicative of the truth of Islam. I find it amusing that you now use lack of Dr. Moore's conversion as evidence of the same point. |
Anonymous
| Sorry for double post--did something wrong. |
Anonymous
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This implies the verses were divinely inspired and science simply validated it.
Give it up already. Interpreting the Koran to say it indicates three stages of pregnancy (which is not a breakthrough development in scientific thought) does not imply in any way way to anyone with a brain in their head that the Koran was divinely inspired. Again, I urge you to complete briefly the following statement: " I am Muslim because...." That would convince many more people of some of the merits of Islam than any of the ridiculous tangential arguments you have introduced in this thread unless of course the answer is: I am Muslim because it allows me to make sophistic pointy-headed arguments about obscure scriptural passages that are completely irrelevant to the relationship between man and God and others." |
Anonymous
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Anonymous
Dr. Moore no longer speaks about this subject. He used to only for the purpose of education to student associations, anyway. It may be that Dr. Moore suffered a backlash from Islamophobes. If the hatred and fury exhibited by the Islamophobes here on DCUM is any indication of all of how supporters of the Quran or Islam may be treated, I can't blame Dr. Moore for declining interviews and speaking engagements now. What everyone has seen on DCUM was similar to a mob attack when a Muslim woman who went by the name "Muslima" came on the thread, "Tell me about Islam" to defend/clarify Islam. When I joined the discussion to validate Muslima's points, the Islamophobes went haywire on me. If they were simply interested in learning more about Islam but in the end did not like the principles of the faith, they could simply have said, "Well to each his own, I do not understand or like your religion." That's not what happened. The Islamophobes often pulled the most severest and harshest interpretations of Islam in hadith, Sharia, and real life examples and refused to acknowledge that the Qurans words always trump these in the face of any contradiction. It was clear to me that their motivation was simply to vilify the religion of 1.6 billion people. So maybe it's no wonder that Dr. Moore is afraid of people like them. But here's the youtube link of Dr. Moore lecturing about the accuracy of the Quran as far as these verses goes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upa4BSH7ua4 It's permanently recorded to show he believed in the accuracy of the Quranic verses. |
Anonymous
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