Why Some People Convert to Islam

[Anonymous]

Just to be completely clear: do you agree that the hadith on gender determination is crap?

[Anonymous]

Sura 39:6 says that God made us in stages in threefold darkness. There have been many interpretations of this verse, including that of as-Suyuti who said that there were three membranes surrounding the foetus, one to carry nutrients to it, another to absorb its urine, and the third to absorb other waste products. Elsewhere it has been suggested that they are the abdominal wall, the uterine wall and the amniotic sac in which the foetus sits. This is entirely observable to the naked eye, as Hippocrates described dissecting pregnant dogs to find puppies sitting in the amniotic sac inside the uterus [30]. A rather macabre practice of Queen Cleopatra was to rip open the wombs of her pregnant slave-girls in order to see their foetuses, according both to Rabbinic traditions and Plinius [31]. Furthermore, the Romans introduced the custom of opening the womb of a pregnant woman if she died before she had delivered her baby; the woman and her baby would be buried side-by-side, thus giving rise to the term "Caesarean section".

[Anonymous]

And this?

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud: Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:430

Really?

[Anonymous]

It's also important to note that Dr. Moore's opinion is but one voice. For instance, a hugely influential work of Joseph Needham "A History of Embryology" devotes over fifty pages to the works of Galen, Aristotle, Hippocrates and other Greeks, but dispenses with the Arab achievements in this area in under one page, opining that the Arab scientific thought, though it contributed so much to optics and astronomy, did not contribute much to embryology.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But the only reason to discuss Cesarean section would be to prove that people knew about fetal development before the Quran did. There's no mention that Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.. knew about the stages of fetal development or anything else about fetal development. It only states c-sections were used to save the child when it was determined the mother was dying.

No, in the context you brought up it is important to note C-sections existed because by cutting up the stomach of a pregnant woman, it would be noticed that the fetus is wrapped in several protective layers, which the Quran mentioned. It's not about fetal development.

The Quran itself did not explain what it meant by THREE STAGES, VEILED IN DARKNESS. Some criticizers might interpret that verse to refer to the different layers of protection the fetus had. However, since that verse clearly spoke of stages, not layers, it might actually be referring to the three stages of pregnancy (1st, 2nd, 3rd trimester).
And even if the Quranic verse was referring to the three layers of the protection the fetus had and not the stages of fetal development, wouldn't the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, and all the other groups you mentioned have written about them, illustrated them somewhere? Where is it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And the idea that humans were made from a mix of male and female reproductive fluids came as early as Hippocrates.

Professor Keith Moore does translate "nutfah" in the Quran, Sura 76:2 as "mingled fluid" and explains that this Arabic term refers to the male and female fluids which contain the gametes. This can reasonably be translated semen or germinal fluid, which was a term used as early as Hippocrates since he did speak of male and female reproductive fluids. So this is not compelling proof. But nutfah does not have only one meaning in Arabic. It can also mean "a very small quantity of liquid. " Hippocrates did not know the reproductive fluid used to create life was but a very small quantity necessary. And if you read the Quran verse 32:8, it states, "And we created his progeny from the extract of a lowly fluid." This verse contains the word, "sulala," which translated here as ‘extract’ is used in Arabic to refer to ‘a part of something, the issue of something else’. So the Quran is saying that only an extract or part of that very small quantity of semen fluid is required for the creation of a human being. No one, including Hippocrates, the Greeks, Chinese, Romans knew that only one of the spermatozoa from the millions present in a ‘drop’ of semen is required for fertilization. In other words, the ‘sulala’ or the extract of the sperm-drop is required for the creation of man.

Is this not compelling evidence that the Quran knew what no one else knew at that time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But the only reason to discuss Cesarean section would be to prove that people knew about fetal development before the Quran did. There's no mention that Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.. knew about the stages of fetal development or anything else about fetal development. It only states c-sections were used to save the child when it was determined the mother was dying.

No, in the context you brought up it is important to note C-sections existed because by cutting up the stomach of a pregnant woman, it would be noticed that the fetus is wrapped in several protective layers, which the Quran mentioned. It's not about fetal development.

The Quran itself did not explain what it meant by THREE STAGES, VEILED IN DARKNESS. Some criticizers might interpret that verse to refer to the different layers of protection the fetus had. However, since that verse clearly spoke of stages, not layers, it might actually be referring to the three stages of pregnancy (1st, 2nd, 3rd trimester).
And even if the Quranic verse was referring to the three layers of the protection the fetus had and not the stages of fetal development, wouldn't the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, and all the other groups you mentioned have written about them, illustrated them somewhere? Where is it?

I think you said it best that the Quran did not explain what it meant by three stages, nor has it illustrated it. We simply do not know what it meant, and it can be interpreted any way one wishes. The trimester sequencing of pregnancy is entirely arbitrary. It could have been nine or four and a half, or one. That medicine decided to divide it by three is a random thing.

I have cited for you Gallenic experiments on pregnant dogs; presumably, it is written somewhere. I'm sure other people have created written records on what they thought happens inside pregnant bellies. You don't know that they haven't written about it. What is clearly known is that people have seen the inside of pregnant bellies with fetuses inside.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And the idea that humans were made from a mix of male and female reproductive fluids came as early as Hippocrates.

Professor Keith Moore does translate "nutfah" in the Quran, Sura 76:2 as "mingled fluid" and explains that this Arabic term refers to the male and female fluids which contain the gametes. This can reasonably be translated semen or germinal fluid, which was a term used as early as Hippocrates since he did speak of male and female reproductive fluids. So this is not compelling proof. But nutfah does not have only one meaning in Arabic. It can also mean "a very small quantity of liquid. " Hippocrates did not know the reproductive fluid used to create life was but a very small quantity necessary. And if you read the Quran verse 32:8, it states, "And we created his progeny from the extract of a lowly fluid." This verse contains the word, "sulala," which translated here as ‘extract’ is used in Arabic to refer to ‘a part of something, the issue of something else’. So the Quran is saying that only an extract or part of that very small quantity of semen fluid is required for the creation of a human being. No one, including Hippocrates, the Greeks, Chinese, Romans knew that only one of the spermatozoa from the millions present in a ‘drop’ of semen is required for fertilization. In other words, the ‘sulala’ or the extract of the sperm-drop is required for the creation of man.

Is this not compelling evidence that the Quran knew what no one else knew at that time?

No, not to me. The standard volume of ejaculation is one table spoon. That may feel like a lot, but in actuality it is a very small volume of liquid. That is observable with a naked eye. It is also observable with a naked eye that one doesn't need the entire volume of ejaculate to create a pregnancy since during a normal intercourse some of it leaks out.

But the main reason why it is not compelling to me is that the sperm-drop is not enough to create man. One needs an egg at some point. So it is inaccurate to say man is created from sperm, a drop or a bucket.

Finally, as far as I know, the Quran also lists a bunch of things out of which man was created - dust, clay, earth, water, nothing...sperm is just one thing in that list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But the only reason to discuss Cesarean section would be to prove that people knew about fetal development before the Quran did. There's no mention that Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.. knew about the stages of fetal development or anything else about fetal development. It only states c-sections were used to save the child when it was determined the mother was dying.

No, in the context you brought up it is important to note C-sections existed because by cutting up the stomach of a pregnant woman, it would be noticed that the fetus is wrapped in several protective layers, which the Quran mentioned. It's not about fetal development.

The Quran itself did not explain what it meant by THREE STAGES, VEILED IN DARKNESS. Some criticizers might interpret that verse to refer to the different layers of protection the fetus had. However, since that verse clearly spoke of stages, not layers, it might actually be referring to the three stages of pregnancy (1st, 2nd, 3rd trimester).
And even if the Quranic verse was referring to the three layers of the protection the fetus had and not the stages of fetal development, wouldn't the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, and all the other groups you mentioned have written about them, illustrated them somewhere? Where is it?

I think you said it best that the Quran did not explain what it meant by three stages, nor has it illustrated it. We simply do not know what it meant, and it can be interpreted any way one wishes. The trimester sequencing of pregnancy is entirely arbitrary. It could have been nine or four and a half, or one. That medicine decided to divide it by three is a random thing.

I have cited for you Gallenic experiments on pregnant dogs; presumably, it is written somewhere. I'm sure other people have created written records on what they thought happens inside pregnant bellies. You don't know that they haven't written about it. What is clearly known is that people have seen the inside of pregnant bellies with fetuses inside.

Hippocratic not Gallenic.

[Anonymous]

Why some people convert to Islam: Because they don't know any better.

/thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's also important to note that Dr. Moore's opinion is but one voice. For instance, a hugely influential work of Joseph Needham "A History of Embryology" devotes over fifty pages to the works of Galen, Aristotle, Hippocrates and other Greeks, but dispenses with the Arab achievements in this area in under one page, opining that the Arab scientific thought, though it contributed so much to optics and astronomy, did not contribute much to embryology. [/quote

We are discussing the embryology as explained in the Quran, not Arab scientific thought. The Quran revelations of
1)three stages of pregnancy 2) reference to what we now identify as spermatozoa, and 3) leech like clot seem to be compelling because Galen, Hippocrates, the Chinese, Romans did not make mention of these. The Qurans revelations may not have influenced Arab scientific contribution and thus, Arab may not have made contributions to embryology, but why confuse that with the Quran. Apples to boxcars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And the idea that humans were made from a mix of male and female reproductive fluids came as early as Hippocrates.

Professor Keith Moore does translate "nutfah" in the Quran, Sura 76:2 as "mingled fluid" and explains that this Arabic term refers to the male and female fluids which contain the gametes. This can reasonably be translated semen or germinal fluid, which was a term used as early as Hippocrates since he did speak of male and female reproductive fluids. So this is not compelling proof. But nutfah does not have only one meaning in Arabic. It can also mean "a very small quantity of liquid. " Hippocrates did not know the reproductive fluid used to create life was but a very small quantity necessary. And if you read the Quran verse 32:8, it states, "And we created his progeny from the extract of a lowly fluid." This verse contains the word, "sulala," which translated here as ‘extract’ is used in Arabic to refer to ‘a part of something, the issue of something else’. So the Quran is saying that only an extract or part of that very small quantity of semen fluid is required for the creation of a human being. No one, including Hippocrates, the Greeks, Chinese, Romans knew that only one of the spermatozoa from the millions present in a ‘drop’ of semen is required for fertilization. In other words, the ‘sulala’ or the extract of the sperm-drop is required for the creation of man.

Is this not compelling evidence that the Quran knew what no one else knew at that time?

No, not to me. The standard volume of ejaculation is one table spoon. That may feel like a lot, but in actuality it is a very small volume of liquid. That is observable with a naked eye. It is also observable with a naked eye that one doesn't need the entire volume of ejaculate to create a pregnancy since during a normal intercourse some of it leaks out.

If it is so obvious to you that only a very tiny part of a drop of semen is what is necessary for life, then certainly Hippcrates, Galen, and the Roman who were performing c-sections would certainly have written about or illustrated it. They did not.

And-- It is illogical to say "the absence of writing is not an indication they lacked knowledge of it" yet simultaneously deny the writing that the Quran did have on this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

We are discussing the embryology as explained in the Quran, not Arab scientific thought. The Quran revelations of
1)three stages of pregnancy 2) reference to what we now identify as spermatozoa, and 3) leech like clot seem to be compelling because Galen, Hippocrates, the Chinese, Romans did not make mention of these. The Qurans revelations may not have influenced Arab scientific contribution and thus, Arab may not have made contributions to embryology, but why confuse that with the Quran. Apples to boxcars.

The pregnancy doesn't have three specific stages, the division to trimesters is entirely arbitrary. Nothing magical happens at the end of the first trimester and beginning of second; you'd be hard-pressed to identify when one ends and the next begins.

That sperm is required for life is an observation that can be made with a naked eye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But the only reason to discuss Cesarean section would be to prove that people knew about fetal development before the Quran did. There's no mention that Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.. knew about the stages of fetal development or anything else about fetal development. It only states c-sections were used to save the child when it was determined the mother was dying.

No, in the context you brought up it is important to note C-sections existed because by cutting up the stomach of a pregnant woman, it would be noticed that the fetus is wrapped in several protective layers, which the Quran mentioned. It's not about fetal development.

The Quran itself did not explain what it meant by THREE STAGES, VEILED IN DARKNESS. Some criticizers might interpret that verse to refer to the different layers of protection the fetus had. However, since that verse clearly spoke of stages, not layers, it might actually be referring to the three stages of pregnancy (1st, 2nd, 3rd trimester).
And even if the Quranic verse was referring to the three layers of the protection the fetus had and not the stages of fetal development, wouldn't the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, and all the other groups you mentioned have written about them, illustrated them somewhere? Where is it?

I think you said it best that the Quran did not explain what it meant by three stages, nor has it illustrated it. We simply do not know what it meant, and it can be interpreted any way one wishes. The trimester sequencing of pregnancy is entirely arbitrary. It could have been nine or four and a half, or one. That medicine decided to divide it by three is a random thing.

I have cited for you Gallenic experiments on pregnant dogs; presumably, it is written somewhere. I'm sure other people have created written records on what they thought happens inside pregnant bellies. You don't know that they haven't written about it. What is clearly known is that people have seen the inside of pregnant bellies with fetuses inside.

Hippocratic not Gallenic.

I have read Hippocrates and Galens notes and they are published for all to see. Galen said pregnancy was in four stages, the Quran correctly said it was three. SO-- Even though they were cutting open pregnant bellies, they still got the stages of pregnancy wrong and never made mention of the three layers of protection around a fetus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one, including Hippocrates, the Greeks, Chinese, Romans knew that only one of the spermatozoa from the millions present in a ‘drop’ of semen is required for fertilization. In other words, the ‘sulala’ or the extract of the sperm-drop is required for the creation of man.

Is this not compelling evidence that the Quran knew what no one else knew at that time?

Please...please tell me that you know that more than one spermatozoa is required for fertilization, unless you're doing ICSI. Please tell me that the concept of "helper sperm" has not escaped you completely.