Madison HS or the IB program at Marshall HS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This comment from one of the articles stood out:

"IB was imposed on [South Lakes] without community input in 1999. It serves a tiny fraction of the student body. It constrains SLHS' course offerings for the rest. In order to fill the courses which IB requires SLHS to offer, kids are involuntarily placed in IB classes despite parents' explicit requests to the contrary. Then the involuntarily placed kid can't change classes during the 1st Quarter. IB is more expensive than AP. IB test scores are not reported until July which is after colleges have completed freshman course placement. "Theory of Knowledge" is a watered down version of epistemology, a graduate school level philosophy course. It is sophistry to expect high school students to understand this material when they haven't taken an "introduction to philosophy" course. Quantum mechanics would be more appropriate for high school. Let IB be an academy program at Marshall to which kids can transfer from their base school. AP is more appropriate for the vast majority of SLHS kids."

Marshall doesn't want the IB program any more than the rest of the schools.

Patently false. In fact, I know a handful of teachers who people-placed so their kids could go to Marshall, specifically because they think it's a more rigorous program and better prep for college.

It's "pupil place" not "people place."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This comment from one of the articles stood out:

"IB was imposed on [South Lakes] without community input in 1999. It serves a tiny fraction of the student body. It constrains SLHS' course offerings for the rest. In order to fill the courses which IB requires SLHS to offer, kids are involuntarily placed in IB classes despite parents' explicit requests to the contrary. Then the involuntarily placed kid can't change classes during the 1st Quarter. IB is more expensive than AP. IB test scores are not reported until July which is after colleges have completed freshman course placement. "Theory of Knowledge" is a watered down version of epistemology, a graduate school level philosophy course. It is sophistry to expect high school students to understand this material when they haven't taken an "introduction to philosophy" course. Quantum mechanics would be more appropriate for high school. Let IB be an academy program at Marshall to which kids can transfer from their base school. AP is more appropriate for the vast majority of SLHS kids."

Marshall doesn't want the IB program any more than the rest of the schools.

Patently false. In fact, I know a handful of teachers who people-placed so their kids could go to Marshall, specifically because they think it's a more rigorous program and better prep for college.

It's "pupil place" not "people place."

Key phrase here was "a handful." At an IB school, the desires of "a handful" are deemed more important than the needs of "the rest."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only reason many prefer AP is because it is easier to be able to pick and choose AP courses than to take all IB courses for the diploma. However, a full IB diploma graduate is much more rare and desirable in the eyes of most colleges. The amount of credits awarded at some schools may be fewer, but they do recognize that it is the most rigorous program available.

My son in planning on majoring in pre-med, and most medical schools will not accept AP or IB credits in lieu of any of their undergrad requirements (4 years of college science, 2 years of calculus, etc). For that reason, he wants to do IB instead of AP.

Many AP courses are considered more demanding than their IB counterpart, and some have no IB equivalent. Colleges will not necessarily know when students are applying for admission whether an applicant will receive an IB diploma because that decision is not made until after the student graduates. If you really believe what you write here, you should make sure your child both obtains an IB diploma and then takes a gap year so the schools to which he's applying know he received an IB diploma.

Colleges aren't necessarily blown away by an IB diploma. They also look at SAT/ACT scores and the overall academic reputation of the secondary school. What does concern many parents is the perception that non-IB diploma candidates at IB schools are relegated to the bottom of the candidate pile in a way that isn't true for students who take a healthy, but not exclusive, selection of AP courses. Also, before you get too enamored of your own rhetoric, you should realize that the most prestigious universities may have pre-med programs, but not pre-med majors.

I have nothing against IB for those prefer its [b]Euro-centric perspective [/b]and comparatively rigid curriculum, but when the county is paying extra money for IB program coordinators and dues at schools where the percentage of students getting IB diplomas is ridiculously low, I think it requires closer examination. I'd rather see Falls Church HS getting renovated earlier, for example, rather than continuing to spend extra money on IB at each of Annandale, Edison, Lee and Stuart.

Last time I checked, Brazil, as mentioned in an earlier post was in South America. Another very popular IB history course focuses on the Middle East. So much for Eurocentric. Please get your facts straight before you start calling for the end of a program you don't understand. And lets remember that extra money, if it's that much was directed at schools that weren't doing that well. If you want your child to take advantage of IB, you can people place instead of whining about not getting your share of resources. As for that argument, don't even get me started. There are plenty of parts of the county that have much bigger gripes and at least IB and AP are made available to everyone as opposed to TJ or the so-called gifted programs in elementary and middle school.

IBO is based in Geneva and the tests are administered out of the UK. It is indisputably a Euro-centric organisation even if some of the course material examines other cultures. Your argument is akin to claiming the College Board isn't an American institution because students read Shakespeare or Sundiata in an AP English class.

I'm not talking about the institution, but the material studied. Who cares if IBO is based in Europe or the College Board is a U.S. institution -- the important thing and the relevant part for students here is what is actually being studied. You sound a little US-centric for a globalized world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This comment from one of the articles stood out:

"IB was imposed on [South Lakes] without community input in 1999. It serves a tiny fraction of the student body. It constrains SLHS' course offerings for the rest. In order to fill the courses which IB requires SLHS to offer, kids are involuntarily placed in IB classes despite parents' explicit requests to the contrary. Then the involuntarily placed kid can't change classes during the 1st Quarter. IB is more expensive than AP. IB test scores are not reported until July which is after colleges have completed freshman course placement. "Theory of Knowledge" is a watered down version of epistemology, a graduate school level philosophy course. It is sophistry to expect high school students to understand this material when they haven't taken an "introduction to philosophy" course. Quantum mechanics would be more appropriate for high school. Let IB be an academy program at Marshall to which kids can transfer from their base school. AP is more appropriate for the vast majority of SLHS kids."

Marshall doesn't want the IB program any more than the rest of the schools.

Patently false. In fact, I know a handful of teachers who people-placed so their kids could go to Marshall, specifically because they think it's a more rigorous program and better prep for college.

It's "pupil place" not "people place."

Key phrase here was "a handful." At an IB school, the desires of "a handful" are deemed more important than the needs of "the rest."

Thanks for the correction -- PP is right that it is pupil placed.

But you misunderstand and are twisting words to prove your point. The handful refers merely to the teachers' kids who opted for IB. IB is open to all, but it is a matter of choice. Perhaps if the schools did a better job of explaining the benefits of the diploma more people would take advantage. It's not as easy to explain as paint-by-number AP. But no one's needs are being ignored. Anyone who feels theirs can be better met by an AP program has that option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only reason many prefer AP is because it is easier to be able to pick and choose AP courses than to take all IB courses for the diploma. However, a full IB diploma graduate is much more rare and desirable in the eyes of most colleges. The amount of credits awarded at some schools may be fewer, but they do recognize that it is the most rigorous program available.

My son in planning on majoring in pre-med, and most medical schools will not accept AP or IB credits in lieu of any of their undergrad requirements (4 years of college science, 2 years of calculus, etc). For that reason, he wants to do IB instead of AP.

Many AP courses are considered more demanding than their IB counterpart, and some have no IB equivalent. Colleges will not necessarily know when students are applying for admission whether an applicant will receive an IB diploma because that decision is not made until after the student graduates. If you really believe what you write here, you should make sure your child both obtains an IB diploma and then takes a gap year so the schools to which he's applying know he received an IB diploma.

Colleges aren't necessarily blown away by an IB diploma. They also look at SAT/ACT scores and the overall academic reputation of the secondary school. What does concern many parents is the perception that non-IB diploma candidates at IB schools are relegated to the bottom of the candidate pile in a way that isn't true for students who take a healthy, but not exclusive, selection of AP courses. Also, before you get too enamored of your own rhetoric, you should realize that the most prestigious universities may have pre-med programs, but not pre-med majors.

I have nothing against IB for those prefer its [b]Euro-centric perspective [/b]and comparatively rigid curriculum, but when the county is paying extra money for IB program coordinators and dues at schools where the percentage of students getting IB diplomas is ridiculously low, I think it requires closer examination. I'd rather see Falls Church HS getting renovated earlier, for example, rather than continuing to spend extra money on IB at each of Annandale, Edison, Lee and Stuart.

Last time I checked, Brazil, as mentioned in an earlier post was in South America. Another very popular IB history course focuses on the Middle East. So much for Eurocentric. Please get your facts straight before you start calling for the end of a program you don't understand. And lets remember that extra money, if it's that much was directed at schools that weren't doing that well. If you want your child to take advantage of IB, you can people place instead of whining about not getting your share of resources. As for that argument, don't even get me started. There are plenty of parts of the county that have much bigger gripes and at least IB and AP are made available to everyone as opposed to TJ or the so-called gifted programs in elementary and middle school.

Incoherent babbling on your part. So what if IB is open enrollment? The percentage of students at those schools actually enrolled in IB diploma programs in FCPS is minuscule. The money could be much better spent on other programs that would benefit far more students and do more to improve struggling schools than IB.

Seems pretty clear to me. Incoherent is calling for the end of a program just because you don't understand it. Get back to us when you have some facts.

[Anonymous]

Also judging effectiveness of IB program on the percentage of students who get the full diploma is like looking at the AP program for only those students who take multiple APs in the hardest classes. Better comparison is to compare number of students who take at least one IB or one AP class. Those numbers are much closer.

[Anonymous]

A lot of resentment about IB here from parents whose kids are in AP. This seems a little misplaced. How is the existence of IB hurting your kids in any way? Could it be that you're afraid they're missing out on something? Otherwise, why not be happy that your kids are in a good AP program which seems to be what you prefer anyway? There seems to a lot of misplaced angst, maybe parental fear about student accomplishment/competition spilling onto this thread, but little coherent argument as to why IB isn't a good program.

[Anonymous]

I think the AP parents want to see the demise of the IB program, when in reality what will likely happen is that every high school will end up having both AP and IB.

[Anonymous]

I read the lists and counted the "top tier" maybe I missed some:
Madison-- Dartmouth, McGill, Duke, West Point, 20 UVA, 9 W&M
Marshall: Wake Forest, Yale 1.5, Georgetown 2, George Washington, Berkeley, Barnard. UVA 15, W&M 6

Seems like Marshall slightly better with elite privates, Madison slightly better with Va state schools (did not count them all, just UVA and W&M)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm not talking about the institution, but the material studied. Who cares if IBO is based in Europe or the College Board is a U.S. institution -- the important thing and the relevant part for students here is what is actually being studied. You sound a little US-centric for a globalized world.

And you sound as if you're only capable of speaking in platitudes, served up by the IBO, about becoming a "global citizen." If you want to focus on content, you'll learn at least as much in AP World History as a typical IB course, except that there might not be as much focus on Fidel Castro.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I read the lists and counted the "top tier" maybe I missed some:
Madison-- Dartmouth, McGill, Duke, West Point, 20 UVA, 9 W&M
Marshall: Wake Forest, Yale 1.5, Georgetown 2, George Washington, Berkeley, Barnard. UVA 15, W&M 6

Seems like Marshall slightly better with elite privates, Madison slightly better with Va state schools (did not count them all, just UVA and W&M)

And Cornell. The Madison info was as of February, so it was just early admissions. By the time April admissions are out Madison looks better than Marshall every year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the AP parents want to see the demise of the IB program, when in reality what will likely happen is that every high school will end up having both AP and IB.

You appear not to have much of a grasp of reality. FCPS is cash strapped right now. The last things it's going to do is pay for both AP and IB at every school. Most parents at IB schools just accept what FCPS offers, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't pick AP for their base school given a choice.

[Anonymous]

Marshall is an improving school. Given its history of being second-tier, perhaps it is easier to get into good schools out of Marshall?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I read the lists and counted the "top tier" maybe I missed some:
Madison-- Dartmouth, McGill, Duke, West Point, 20 UVA, 9 W&M
Marshall: Wake Forest, Yale 1.5, Georgetown 2, George Washington, Berkeley, Barnard. UVA 15, W&M 6

Seems like Marshall slightly better with elite privates, Madison slightly better with Va state schools (did not count them all, just UVA and W&M)

You left out foreign universities at Marshall: University of St. Andrews (Scotland), International Christian University (Japan), University of Canberra, Yale-NUS Singapore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm not talking about the institution, but the material studied. Who cares if IBO is based in Europe or the College Board is a U.S. institution -- the important thing and the relevant part for students here is what is actually being studied. You sound a little US-centric for a globalized world.

And you sound as if you're only capable of speaking in platitudes, served up by the IBO, about becoming a "global citizen." If you want to focus on content, you'll learn at least as much in AP World History as a typical IB course, except that there might not be as much focus on Fidel Castro.

Shen me?