It is so much easier to be a good parent when not working

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is 100% true even if stay at home moms love to pretend it’s not. Because their life is just sooooooo hard.

Eh. I agree with OP--it is easier to be a better parent when not trying to balance a paid job. But, being a SAHM is, for many women, soooo hard. I mean, if you have 1 kid and a full time nanny and tons of money, I imagine that is a cushy life. But that isn't the typical SAHM. My friends who have done it have 2-5 kids, varying amounts of money, and someone always needs something. I only have one SAHM friend whose husband truly takes on an equal share of work between 5:30 pm or so and 8 am or so. For the most part, SAHMs seem to do ALL or almost all of the kid and household stuff. I would go out of my mind in that situation. Yes, I get that there are some women who do all of almost all of the household and kid stuff except for outsourcing childcare while they also work a full-time job, and that would also be a nightmare to me. But I know more working moms with spouses that do their share of the work than SAHMs with spouses doing their share (I don't mean 50%--but 50% of what needs to be done when the working spouse is not working).

Once the kids are school aged, it’s silly for the DH of a SAHM to do 50% after work hours. I have down time during the day when the kids are at school/camp, he doesn’t. Of course he should have down time in the evenings! He was completely hands on in the under-5 years and still is very involved, helps cook, drives to activities, even coaches. But now that the kids don’t need supervision for showers or evening play time, he’s fine to sit and read while I clean the kitchen or switch the laundry. I get my rest during his workday! I can’t imagine nickel-and-diming him when we have such a nice life thanks to him.

Idk… there is just something so pathetic about this dynamic to me. I don’t want my kids thinking “Dad goes into the world and makes money and has exciting experiences. Mom mops the kitchen and folds laundry.” It’s better to model a healthy, balanced relationship with spouses on equal footing.

Do you know any real people? Most people who work wouldn’t call it exciting experiences, it is a paycheck. Very few people make or female really love their jobs. Also if you think SAHMS just mop and fold laundry then you must not know any. There are many valuable and rewarding ways in which one can use their time.

Like Pilates and lunch duty?

If not, can you explain what is valuable and rewarding?

That’s not what I do but given your examples I’m not sure what is wrong with taking care of yourself and contributing to your community? Does one need a paycheck to validate their existence? Is the HR manager more valuable than the person who volunteers at the school and runs the Cub Scout troop?

The HR manager and the person who runs the Cub Scout troop and volunteers at the school are (statistically) all the same person. Parents who have jobs outside the home still volunteer and coach and lead extra curricular activities.

Right but you’re missing the point. Many people don’t need to earn a paycheck to be fulfilled or feel as though they are adding value. Most people are working for a paycheck and would not continue working if their employer stopped paying them.

My parents were wealthy and my mom didn’t work past the age of 32. She played tennis, socialized, kept a nice home and traveled extensively. Think the south of France every July. She had no desire to work for a living and the money wasn’t necessary. If I had to guess, she likely would have felt bad for someone sitting in front of a laptop all day instead of someone outside enjoying nature and meeting up with friends.

There are a lot of posters on here who are very fulfilled by work and can’t fathom an existence not working. There is a lot more to life than your job.

Perhaps, but the question was whether the HR manager is more “valuable” than the Cub Scout volunteer— as though those two things are mutually exclusive.

Your mother sounds like she was happy and fulfilled but nothing you describe her doing is “valuable”. Why isn’t it enough for SAHMs to just…be happy and fulfilled? Why do we need to make up a story about them adding value?

Because there has been a push for women to be treated as men and men are judged for their actions and the value they add. It’s no longer appropriate for a woman to just be a homemaker and enjoy her life while raising children and tending to a house. She has to earn an income or provide some sort of labor for others outside of her immediate family.

I think you’re making up a problem.
Stay at home homes of school aged kids could be doing ‘more’. That’s not a new societal expectation, it’s just the observation of anyone with eyes and a brain. Should they be doing more? If they can afford not to work, and still set their kids up with nest eggs and pay for college so no student loans then sure - enjoy! But expecting society to recognize sahm of school aged kids as a full time ‘job’ is ridiculous and a waste of everyone’s time

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Well yeah of course. Being a stay at home mom is a full-time job. But being a work out of the home means you have two full time jobs which is exhausting.

Being a sahm to school aged is NOT a full time job. I think that’s been clearly established.
Which is ok.

It depends. You can be an intense cook, cleaner, gardener, handyperson, room parent, helping neighbor or family, etc.

Right? Often jobs are as intense as you make them. I certainly wasn’t working intensely for 8-9 hours straight at my paid employment with zero downtime/breaks/social interaction. I suspect a lot of other professional jobs are similar. The only full-time thing about it in many seasons was the fact that I had to be physically present full-time to take care of any tasks as they came up (and those tasks were often mundane and easy and quite frankly pointless). There were of course busy times where I worked my butt off, but that was not the norm.

I feel like maybe people don’t realize they hold SAHM as a “job” to a completely different standard than they might hold their own paid employment. Because I don’t think my experience was totally unusual.

You were lucky to have an easy job. But when so. Being away from your home for 8 hours plus commute and having to spend your remaining waking hours caring for a child/children is exhausting

That’s the thing - you can do just as much stuff as a sahm if you work and have school aged kids - esp if you have location flex (which frankly I would not take a job without). You’re just more burned out.
But the ‘sahm to school aged kids is a full time job’ people need to just - stop.

You’re missing the point. You can do just as much as SOME stay at home moms, but not the ones who actually treat it as a full time job. And the stuff you do undoubtedly won’t be to the same standard. And that’s fine, but why are you insisting that other women don’t get to call their job a job?

You cannot do as much housework as a SAHM can, that is absolutely true. And your toilets may certainly be dirtier and your ironing may be more erratic.

But for a school age child who is in school in the normal school hours, you can easily do just as much *parenting* at the same “standard” whatever precisely that means.

What do you mean? Do you mean that working moms spend the same amount of hours with their kid per day as a SAHM? I don’t see how that’s possible if the mom is working 40 hours per week, so I may be misunderstanding.

I wft and this is basically true. I either drop kids at 830a, run home (as in go for a run but end up at home), shower and online on calls by 930, then dh gets kids and they are home by 530. Or dh drops them and I am online by 830-9 then pick them up at 5. I would not get them earlier very often even if I didn’t work bc it’s better for them to be playing basketball or doing music classes at school than in our small apt (nyc). We log off early on Fridays so I get them at 315 that day. I do do a lot of work after they go to bed and I am tired in the evening so prob not gazing into their eyes and leaning into further enrichment (they are also tired and typically watch a little tv or we watch together) so I’m def not bringing my a game to the party as much as I would be if I’d chilled all day. That is true

Op here. This thread has gone off the rails and devolved into a debate mostly about whether elementary school SAHM do as much work, but to go back to the original intention of my post, this is my point. It’s easier to be a present, involved parent when you’re not working because you’re well rested when the kids are around. I too spent a lot of time with my kids when working because I wfh with lots of flexibility, but I didn’t realize how tired I was during those times. Now that I have down time when kids are at activities, I’m so much more engaged and happy and not distracted by the other things on my mind when i am with them.

Your whole premise is completely and categorically incorrect.

SAHM are not necessarily more rested and hence present and patient with kids.

I’d argue they are more exhausted, sick of and stressed by their kids because they have no other outlets, are busy cleaning and cooking, and generally are less present because they are with the kids with no other intellectual outlet.

Many are less happy, well rested, etc by mind numbing tv, posting on DCUM, etc.

DP here. I am the happiest when I am with my kids.

when I quit my job to become a sahm, I retained my cleaners and increased their hours and frequency (twice a week) so that they could also do laundry, food prep, decluttering, organizing for me under my supervision.

I knew that if my DH would have become a sah parent, he would have first made sure that he had a team of domestic helpers to help him succeed. His goal would be to focus only on the children and the success of our family life. The point of becoming a sah parent is to spend time with the kids primarily. The fact that the at home parent can also function as a house-manager and make the household run smoothly and free up the time for other members of the family is a bonus.

The most important commodity in the world is time. If you can buy the labor and time of other people for every other boring chore and free up your time, you can focus on what is important.

You sound like an outlier.

Most SAHM are counting the hours to hand off their kids to dad when he gets home, get bitter that they have to do bedtime routine with no help, and exhausted being with kids all day, and cooking, shopping, then doing dishes while the “breadwinner” expects them to “do it all” because “that’s their job now”.

Also it ribs kids of having 2 parents.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is 100% true even if stay at home moms love to pretend it’s not. Because their life is just sooooooo hard.

Eh. I agree with OP--it is easier to be a better parent when not trying to balance a paid job. But, being a SAHM is, for many women, soooo hard. I mean, if you have 1 kid and a full time nanny and tons of money, I imagine that is a cushy life. But that isn't the typical SAHM. My friends who have done it have 2-5 kids, varying amounts of money, and someone always needs something. I only have one SAHM friend whose husband truly takes on an equal share of work between 5:30 pm or so and 8 am or so. For the most part, SAHMs seem to do ALL or almost all of the kid and household stuff. I would go out of my mind in that situation. Yes, I get that there are some women who do all of almost all of the household and kid stuff except for outsourcing childcare while they also work a full-time job, and that would also be a nightmare to me. But I know more working moms with spouses that do their share of the work than SAHMs with spouses doing their share (I don't mean 50%--but 50% of what needs to be done when the working spouse is not working).

Once the kids are school aged, it’s silly for the DH of a SAHM to do 50% after work hours. I have down time during the day when the kids are at school/camp, he doesn’t. Of course he should have down time in the evenings! He was completely hands on in the under-5 years and still is very involved, helps cook, drives to activities, even coaches. But now that the kids don’t need supervision for showers or evening play time, he’s fine to sit and read while I clean the kitchen or switch the laundry. I get my rest during his workday! I can’t imagine nickel-and-diming him when we have such a nice life thanks to him.

Idk… there is just something so pathetic about this dynamic to me. I don’t want my kids thinking “Dad goes into the world and makes money and has exciting experiences. Mom mops the kitchen and folds laundry.” It’s better to model a healthy, balanced relationship with spouses on equal footing.

Do you know any real people? Most people who work wouldn’t call it exciting experiences, it is a paycheck. Very few people make or female really love their jobs. Also if you think SAHMS just mop and fold laundry then you must not know any. There are many valuable and rewarding ways in which one can use their time.

Like Pilates and lunch duty?

If not, can you explain what is valuable and rewarding?

That’s not what I do but given your examples I’m not sure what is wrong with taking care of yourself and contributing to your community? Does one need a paycheck to validate their existence? Is the HR manager more valuable than the person who volunteers at the school and runs the Cub Scout troop?

The HR manager and the person who runs the Cub Scout troop and volunteers at the school are (statistically) all the same person. Parents who have jobs outside the home still volunteer and coach and lead extra curricular activities.

Right but you’re missing the point. Many people don’t need to earn a paycheck to be fulfilled or feel as though they are adding value. Most people are working for a paycheck and would not continue working if their employer stopped paying them.

My parents were wealthy and my mom didn’t work past the age of 32. She played tennis, socialized, kept a nice home and traveled extensively. Think the south of France every July. She had no desire to work for a living and the money wasn’t necessary. If I had to guess, she likely would have felt bad for someone sitting in front of a laptop all day instead of someone outside enjoying nature and meeting up with friends.

There are a lot of posters on here who are very fulfilled by work and can’t fathom an existence not working. There is a lot more to life than your job.

Perhaps, but the question was whether the HR manager is more “valuable” than the Cub Scout volunteer— as though those two things are mutually exclusive.

Your mother sounds like she was happy and fulfilled but nothing you describe her doing is “valuable”. Why isn’t it enough for SAHMs to just…be happy and fulfilled? Why do we need to make up a story about them adding value?

Because there has been a push for women to be treated as men and men are judged for their actions and the value they add. It’s no longer appropriate for a woman to just be a homemaker and enjoy her life while raising children and tending to a house. She has to earn an income or provide some sort of labor for others outside of her immediate family.

I think you’re making up a problem.
Stay at home homes of school aged kids could be doing ‘more’. That’s not a new societal expectation, it’s just the observation of anyone with eyes and a brain. Should they be doing more? If they can afford not to work, and still set their kids up with nest eggs and pay for college so no student loans then sure - enjoy! But expecting society to recognize sahm of school aged kids as a full time ‘job’ is ridiculous and a waste of everyone’s time

What’s ridiculous is your bizarre insistence on gatekeeping here. If a woman tells you her job is being a SAHM or a housewife and you disagree with her characterization of what she does as a job, just smile and nod and move the hell on with your life and your own business. Why are you wasting your time (and hers) trying to prove her wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is 100% true even if stay at home moms love to pretend it’s not. Because their life is just sooooooo hard.

Eh. I agree with OP--it is easier to be a better parent when not trying to balance a paid job. But, being a SAHM is, for many women, soooo hard. I mean, if you have 1 kid and a full time nanny and tons of money, I imagine that is a cushy life. But that isn't the typical SAHM. My friends who have done it have 2-5 kids, varying amounts of money, and someone always needs something. I only have one SAHM friend whose husband truly takes on an equal share of work between 5:30 pm or so and 8 am or so. For the most part, SAHMs seem to do ALL or almost all of the kid and household stuff. I would go out of my mind in that situation. Yes, I get that there are some women who do all of almost all of the household and kid stuff except for outsourcing childcare while they also work a full-time job, and that would also be a nightmare to me. But I know more working moms with spouses that do their share of the work than SAHMs with spouses doing their share (I don't mean 50%--but 50% of what needs to be done when the working spouse is not working).

Once the kids are school aged, it’s silly for the DH of a SAHM to do 50% after work hours. I have down time during the day when the kids are at school/camp, he doesn’t. Of course he should have down time in the evenings! He was completely hands on in the under-5 years and still is very involved, helps cook, drives to activities, even coaches. But now that the kids don’t need supervision for showers or evening play time, he’s fine to sit and read while I clean the kitchen or switch the laundry. I get my rest during his workday! I can’t imagine nickel-and-diming him when we have such a nice life thanks to him.

Idk… there is just something so pathetic about this dynamic to me. I don’t want my kids thinking “Dad goes into the world and makes money and has exciting experiences. Mom mops the kitchen and folds laundry.” It’s better to model a healthy, balanced relationship with spouses on equal footing.

Do you know any real people? Most people who work wouldn’t call it exciting experiences, it is a paycheck. Very few people make or female really love their jobs. Also if you think SAHMS just mop and fold laundry then you must not know any. There are many valuable and rewarding ways in which one can use their time.

Like Pilates and lunch duty?

If not, can you explain what is valuable and rewarding?

That’s not what I do but given your examples I’m not sure what is wrong with taking care of yourself and contributing to your community? Does one need a paycheck to validate their existence? Is the HR manager more valuable than the person who volunteers at the school and runs the Cub Scout troop?

The HR manager and the person who runs the Cub Scout troop and volunteers at the school are (statistically) all the same person. Parents who have jobs outside the home still volunteer and coach and lead extra curricular activities.

Right but you’re missing the point. Many people don’t need to earn a paycheck to be fulfilled or feel as though they are adding value. Most people are working for a paycheck and would not continue working if their employer stopped paying them.

My parents were wealthy and my mom didn’t work past the age of 32. She played tennis, socialized, kept a nice home and traveled extensively. Think the south of France every July. She had no desire to work for a living and the money wasn’t necessary. If I had to guess, she likely would have felt bad for someone sitting in front of a laptop all day instead of someone outside enjoying nature and meeting up with friends.

There are a lot of posters on here who are very fulfilled by work and can’t fathom an existence not working. There is a lot more to life than your job.

Perhaps, but the question was whether the HR manager is more “valuable” than the Cub Scout volunteer— as though those two things are mutually exclusive.

Your mother sounds like she was happy and fulfilled but nothing you describe her doing is “valuable”. Why isn’t it enough for SAHMs to just…be happy and fulfilled? Why do we need to make up a story about them adding value?

Because there has been a push for women to be treated as men and men are judged for their actions and the value they add. It’s no longer appropriate for a woman to just be a homemaker and enjoy her life while raising children and tending to a house. She has to earn an income or provide some sort of labor for others outside of her immediate family.

I think you’re making up a problem.
Stay at home homes of school aged kids could be doing ‘more’. That’s not a new societal expectation, it’s just the observation of anyone with eyes and a brain. Should they be doing more? If they can afford not to work, and still set their kids up with nest eggs and pay for college so no student loans then sure - enjoy! But expecting society to recognize sahm of school aged kids as a full time ‘job’ is ridiculous and a waste of everyone’s time

What’s ridiculous is your bizarre insistence on gatekeeping here. If a woman tells you her job is being a SAHM or a housewife and you disagree with her characterization of what she does as a job, just smile and nod and move the hell on with your life and your own business. Why are you wasting your time (and hers) trying to prove her wrong?

A. The whole point of the thread is to have an opinion on this. If you don’t like this one, why not just smile and nod and move on with your life rather than try prove it wrong?

B. Because it’s a lie and if full time working moms can do a job while kids are at school AND all the things sahms describe as a ‘full time job’ - they’re going to say so rather than be quiet. I’m sure sahms can handle it.

Look - if dh earned enough for me to not work plus save to help my kids, plus vacas etc - I wouldn’t have my same job (I would personally prob have another thing but I get why someone would not). But I wouldn’t be out there saying I ‘couldn’t’ work bc being a sahm to school aged kids is a full time job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well yeah of course. Being a stay at home mom is a full-time job. But being a work out of the home means you have two full time jobs which is exhausting.

Being a sahm to school aged is NOT a full time job. I think that’s been clearly established.
Which is ok.

It depends. You can be an intense cook, cleaner, gardener, handyperson, room parent, helping neighbor or family, etc.

Right? Often jobs are as intense as you make them. I certainly wasn’t working intensely for 8-9 hours straight at my paid employment with zero downtime/breaks/social interaction. I suspect a lot of other professional jobs are similar. The only full-time thing about it in many seasons was the fact that I had to be physically present full-time to take care of any tasks as they came up (and those tasks were often mundane and easy and quite frankly pointless). There were of course busy times where I worked my butt off, but that was not the norm.

I feel like maybe people don’t realize they hold SAHM as a “job” to a completely different standard than they might hold their own paid employment. Because I don’t think my experience was totally unusual.

You were lucky to have an easy job. But when so. Being away from your home for 8 hours plus commute and having to spend your remaining waking hours caring for a child/children is exhausting

That’s the thing - you can do just as much stuff as a sahm if you work and have school aged kids - esp if you have location flex (which frankly I would not take a job without). You’re just more burned out.
But the ‘sahm to school aged kids is a full time job’ people need to just - stop.

You’re missing the point. You can do just as much as SOME stay at home moms, but not the ones who actually treat it as a full time job. And the stuff you do undoubtedly won’t be to the same standard. And that’s fine, but why are you insisting that other women don’t get to call their job a job?

You cannot do as much housework as a SAHM can, that is absolutely true. And your toilets may certainly be dirtier and your ironing may be more erratic.

But for a school age child who is in school in the normal school hours, you can easily do just as much *parenting* at the same “standard” whatever precisely that means.

What do you mean? Do you mean that working moms spend the same amount of hours with their kid per day as a SAHM? I don’t see how that’s possible if the mom is working 40 hours per week, so I may be misunderstanding.

I wft and this is basically true. I either drop kids at 830a, run home (as in go for a run but end up at home), shower and online on calls by 930, then dh gets kids and they are home by 530. Or dh drops them and I am online by 830-9 then pick them up at 5. I would not get them earlier very often even if I didn’t work bc it’s better for them to be playing basketball or doing music classes at school than in our small apt (nyc). We log off early on Fridays so I get them at 315 that day. I do do a lot of work after they go to bed and I am tired in the evening so prob not gazing into their eyes and leaning into further enrichment (they are also tired and typically watch a little tv or we watch together) so I’m def not bringing my a game to the party as much as I would be if I’d chilled all day. That is true

Op here. This thread has gone off the rails and devolved into a debate mostly about whether elementary school SAHM do as much work, but to go back to the original intention of my post, this is my point. It’s easier to be a present, involved parent when you’re not working because you’re well rested when the kids are around. I too spent a lot of time with my kids when working because I wfh with lots of flexibility, but I didn’t realize how tired I was during those times. Now that I have down time when kids are at activities, I’m so much more engaged and happy and not distracted by the other things on my mind when i am with them.

Your whole premise is completely and categorically incorrect.

SAHM are not necessarily more rested and hence present and patient with kids.

I’d argue they are more exhausted, sick of and stressed by their kids because they have no other outlets, are busy cleaning and cooking, and generally are less present because they are with the kids with no other intellectual outlet.

Many are less happy, well rested, etc by mind numbing tv, posting on DCUM, etc.

DP here. I am the happiest when I am with my kids.

when I quit my job to become a sahm, I retained my cleaners and increased their hours and frequency (twice a week) so that they could also do laundry, food prep, decluttering, organizing for me under my supervision.

I knew that if my DH would have become a sah parent, he would have first made sure that he had a team of domestic helpers to help him succeed. His goal would be to focus only on the children and the success of our family life. The point of becoming a sah parent is to spend time with the kids primarily. The fact that the at home parent can also function as a house-manager and make the household run smoothly and free up the time for other members of the family is a bonus.

The most important commodity in the world is time. If you can buy the labor and time of other people for every other boring chore and free up your time, you can focus on what is important.

You sound like an outlier.

Most SAHM are counting the hours to hand off their kids to dad when he gets home, get bitter that they have to do bedtime routine with no help, and exhausted being with kids all day, and cooking, shopping, then doing dishes while the “breadwinner” expects them to “do it all” because “that’s their job now”.

Also it ribs kids of having 2 parents.

Wait, which is it… SAHMs do nothing more than “Pilates and lunch duty” and add “no value” to their family’s lives, or SAHMs are “exhausted being with kids all day” and “bitter” and “counting the hours to hand off the kids to dad”?

(Quoting PPs)

You working moms sure have a lot to say about other women’s lives!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is 100% true even if stay at home moms love to pretend it’s not. Because their life is just sooooooo hard.

Eh. I agree with OP--it is easier to be a better parent when not trying to balance a paid job. But, being a SAHM is, for many women, soooo hard. I mean, if you have 1 kid and a full time nanny and tons of money, I imagine that is a cushy life. But that isn't the typical SAHM. My friends who have done it have 2-5 kids, varying amounts of money, and someone always needs something. I only have one SAHM friend whose husband truly takes on an equal share of work between 5:30 pm or so and 8 am or so. For the most part, SAHMs seem to do ALL or almost all of the kid and household stuff. I would go out of my mind in that situation. Yes, I get that there are some women who do all of almost all of the household and kid stuff except for outsourcing childcare while they also work a full-time job, and that would also be a nightmare to me. But I know more working moms with spouses that do their share of the work than SAHMs with spouses doing their share (I don't mean 50%--but 50% of what needs to be done when the working spouse is not working).

Once the kids are school aged, it’s silly for the DH of a SAHM to do 50% after work hours. I have down time during the day when the kids are at school/camp, he doesn’t. Of course he should have down time in the evenings! He was completely hands on in the under-5 years and still is very involved, helps cook, drives to activities, even coaches. But now that the kids don’t need supervision for showers or evening play time, he’s fine to sit and read while I clean the kitchen or switch the laundry. I get my rest during his workday! I can’t imagine nickel-and-diming him when we have such a nice life thanks to him.

Idk… there is just something so pathetic about this dynamic to me. I don’t want my kids thinking “Dad goes into the world and makes money and has exciting experiences. Mom mops the kitchen and folds laundry.” It’s better to model a healthy, balanced relationship with spouses on equal footing.

Do you know any real people? Most people who work wouldn’t call it exciting experiences, it is a paycheck. Very few people make or female really love their jobs. Also if you think SAHMS just mop and fold laundry then you must not know any. There are many valuable and rewarding ways in which one can use their time.

Like Pilates and lunch duty?

If not, can you explain what is valuable and rewarding?

That’s not what I do but given your examples I’m not sure what is wrong with taking care of yourself and contributing to your community? Does one need a paycheck to validate their existence? Is the HR manager more valuable than the person who volunteers at the school and runs the Cub Scout troop?

The HR manager and the person who runs the Cub Scout troop and volunteers at the school are (statistically) all the same person. Parents who have jobs outside the home still volunteer and coach and lead extra curricular activities.

Right but you’re missing the point. Many people don’t need to earn a paycheck to be fulfilled or feel as though they are adding value. Most people are working for a paycheck and would not continue working if their employer stopped paying them.

My parents were wealthy and my mom didn’t work past the age of 32. She played tennis, socialized, kept a nice home and traveled extensively. Think the south of France every July. She had no desire to work for a living and the money wasn’t necessary. If I had to guess, she likely would have felt bad for someone sitting in front of a laptop all day instead of someone outside enjoying nature and meeting up with friends.

There are a lot of posters on here who are very fulfilled by work and can’t fathom an existence not working. There is a lot more to life than your job.

Perhaps, but the question was whether the HR manager is more “valuable” than the Cub Scout volunteer— as though those two things are mutually exclusive.

Your mother sounds like she was happy and fulfilled but nothing you describe her doing is “valuable”. Why isn’t it enough for SAHMs to just…be happy and fulfilled? Why do we need to make up a story about them adding value?

Because there has been a push for women to be treated as men and men are judged for their actions and the value they add. It’s no longer appropriate for a woman to just be a homemaker and enjoy her life while raising children and tending to a house. She has to earn an income or provide some sort of labor for others outside of her immediate family.

Why? If you’re happy and fulfilled you’re not seeking the external validation of others to say you’re “valuable”. That’s basically the definition of fulfilled.

If you aren’t fulfilled, I don’t think that will be improved by trying to insist others see you as valuable— if your family does that has to be good enough.

[Anonymous]

Sad, sad thread.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Well yeah of course. Being a stay at home mom is a full-time job. But being a work out of the home means you have two full time jobs which is exhausting.

Being a sahm to school aged is NOT a full time job. I think that’s been clearly established.
Which is ok.

It depends. You can be an intense cook, cleaner, gardener, handyperson, room parent, helping neighbor or family, etc.

Right? Often jobs are as intense as you make them. I certainly wasn’t working intensely for 8-9 hours straight at my paid employment with zero downtime/breaks/social interaction. I suspect a lot of other professional jobs are similar. The only full-time thing about it in many seasons was the fact that I had to be physically present full-time to take care of any tasks as they came up (and those tasks were often mundane and easy and quite frankly pointless). There were of course busy times where I worked my butt off, but that was not the norm.

I feel like maybe people don’t realize they hold SAHM as a “job” to a completely different standard than they might hold their own paid employment. Because I don’t think my experience was totally unusual.

You were lucky to have an easy job. But when so. Being away from your home for 8 hours plus commute and having to spend your remaining waking hours caring for a child/children is exhausting

That’s the thing - you can do just as much stuff as a sahm if you work and have school aged kids - esp if you have location flex (which frankly I would not take a job without). You’re just more burned out.
But the ‘sahm to school aged kids is a full time job’ people need to just - stop.

You’re missing the point. You can do just as much as SOME stay at home moms, but not the ones who actually treat it as a full time job. And the stuff you do undoubtedly won’t be to the same standard. And that’s fine, but why are you insisting that other women don’t get to call their job a job?

You cannot do as much housework as a SAHM can, that is absolutely true. And your toilets may certainly be dirtier and your ironing may be more erratic.

But for a school age child who is in school in the normal school hours, you can easily do just as much *parenting* at the same “standard” whatever precisely that means.

What do you mean? Do you mean that working moms spend the same amount of hours with their kid per day as a SAHM? I don’t see how that’s possible if the mom is working 40 hours per week, so I may be misunderstanding.

I wft and this is basically true. I either drop kids at 830a, run home (as in go for a run but end up at home), shower and online on calls by 930, then dh gets kids and they are home by 530. Or dh drops them and I am online by 830-9 then pick them up at 5. I would not get them earlier very often even if I didn’t work bc it’s better for them to be playing basketball or doing music classes at school than in our small apt (nyc). We log off early on Fridays so I get them at 315 that day. I do do a lot of work after they go to bed and I am tired in the evening so prob not gazing into their eyes and leaning into further enrichment (they are also tired and typically watch a little tv or we watch together) so I’m def not bringing my a game to the party as much as I would be if I’d chilled all day. That is true

Op here. This thread has gone off the rails and devolved into a debate mostly about whether elementary school SAHM do as much work, but to go back to the original intention of my post, this is my point. It’s easier to be a present, involved parent when you’re not working because you’re well rested when the kids are around. I too spent a lot of time with my kids when working because I wfh with lots of flexibility, but I didn’t realize how tired I was during those times. Now that I have down time when kids are at activities, I’m so much more engaged and happy and not distracted by the other things on my mind when i am with them.

Your whole premise is completely and categorically incorrect.

SAHM are not necessarily more rested and hence present and patient with kids.

I’d argue they are more exhausted, sick of and stressed by their kids because they have no other outlets, are busy cleaning and cooking, and generally are less present because they are with the kids with no other intellectual outlet.

Many are less happy, well rested, etc by mind numbing tv, posting on DCUM, etc.

DP here. I am the happiest when I am with my kids.

when I quit my job to become a sahm, I retained my cleaners and increased their hours and frequency (twice a week) so that they could also do laundry, food prep, decluttering, organizing for me under my supervision.

I knew that if my DH would have become a sah parent, he would have first made sure that he had a team of domestic helpers to help him succeed. His goal would be to focus only on the children and the success of our family life. The point of becoming a sah parent is to spend time with the kids primarily. The fact that the at home parent can also function as a house-manager and make the household run smoothly and free up the time for other members of the family is a bonus.

The most important commodity in the world is time. If you can buy the labor and time of other people for every other boring chore and free up your time, you can focus on what is important.

You sound like an outlier.

Most SAHM are counting the hours to hand off their kids to dad when he gets home, get bitter that they have to do bedtime routine with no help, and exhausted being with kids all day, and cooking, shopping, then doing dishes while the “breadwinner” expects them to “do it all” because “that’s their job now”.

Also it ribs kids of having 2 parents.

Wait, which is it… SAHMs do nothing more than “Pilates and lunch duty” and add “no value” to their family’s lives, or SAHMs are “exhausted being with kids all day” and “bitter” and “counting the hours to hand off the kids to dad”?

(Quoting PPs)

You working moms sure have a lot to say about other women’s lives!

You SAHM sure have a lot of fantasy worlds made up in your head about everyone’s lives including your own.

OP might be a better mom when not working. Nobody is arguing that. But saying all women in the world are better mom because they don’t work because they are more rested and present is categorically incorrect.

A mom could literally do nothing with the kids all day and just he exhausted by their constant bickering or incessant asking mom to play… or mom is Mary Poppins doing everything with ease and care.

But we know many Mom’s are just exhausted being woken by kids early and burned out by 4 pm hours before dad gets home (whether they spent every minute with the kids or spent the day doing Pilates/lunch/shopping/cleaning)

Just because mom is home and in the vicinity of the kids does not mean she is engaged, well rested and valuable. Perhaps OP is but that does not universally speak to the experience of every mother on earth. We know this from incessant articles/post/etc on the subject.

We also know that some working moms are exhausted by commutes/long hours/household duties. But we also know some Mom’s have flexible schedules, don’t commute and have help with kids/cleaning which makes them more present with their kids for more hours/day with the added bonus of those kids actually having a fully engaged fatter.

Making one sweeping description of every women’s experience based on their working status is categorically incorrect no matter what the statement made is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:This is 100% true even if stay at home moms love to pretend it’s not. Because their life is just sooooooo hard.

Eh. I agree with OP--it is easier to be a better parent when not trying to balance a paid job. But, being a SAHM is, for many women, soooo hard. I mean, if you have 1 kid and a full time nanny and tons of money, I imagine that is a cushy life. But that isn't the typical SAHM. My friends who have done it have 2-5 kids, varying amounts of money, and someone always needs something. I only have one SAHM friend whose husband truly takes on an equal share of work between 5:30 pm or so and 8 am or so. For the most part, SAHMs seem to do ALL or almost all of the kid and household stuff. I would go out of my mind in that situation. Yes, I get that there are some women who do all of almost all of the household and kid stuff except for outsourcing childcare while they also work a full-time job, and that would also be a nightmare to me. But I know more working moms with spouses that do their share of the work than SAHMs with spouses doing their share (I don't mean 50%--but 50% of what needs to be done when the working spouse is not working).

Once the kids are school aged, it’s silly for the DH of a SAHM to do 50% after work hours. I have down time during the day when the kids are at school/camp, he doesn’t. Of course he should have down time in the evenings! He was completely hands on in the under-5 years and still is very involved, helps cook, drives to activities, even coaches. But now that the kids don’t need supervision for showers or evening play time, he’s fine to sit and read while I clean the kitchen or switch the laundry. I get my rest during his workday! I can’t imagine nickel-and-diming him when we have such a nice life thanks to him.

Idk… there is just something so pathetic about this dynamic to me. I don’t want my kids thinking “Dad goes into the world and makes money and has exciting experiences. Mom mops the kitchen and folds laundry.” It’s better to model a healthy, balanced relationship with spouses on equal footing.

Do you know any real people? Most people who work wouldn’t call it exciting experiences, it is a paycheck. Very few people make or female really love their jobs. Also if you think SAHMS just mop and fold laundry then you must not know any. There are many valuable and rewarding ways in which one can use their time.

Like Pilates and lunch duty?

If not, can you explain what is valuable and rewarding?

That’s not what I do but given your examples I’m not sure what is wrong with taking care of yourself and contributing to your community? Does one need a paycheck to validate their existence? Is the HR manager more valuable than the person who volunteers at the school and runs the Cub Scout troop?

The HR manager and the person who runs the Cub Scout troop and volunteers at the school are (statistically) all the same person. Parents who have jobs outside the home still volunteer and coach and lead extra curricular activities.

Right but you’re missing the point. Many people don’t need to earn a paycheck to be fulfilled or feel as though they are adding value. Most people are working for a paycheck and would not continue working if their employer stopped paying them.

My parents were wealthy and my mom didn’t work past the age of 32. She played tennis, socialized, kept a nice home and traveled extensively. Think the south of France every July. She had no desire to work for a living and the money wasn’t necessary. If I had to guess, she likely would have felt bad for someone sitting in front of a laptop all day instead of someone outside enjoying nature and meeting up with friends.

There are a lot of posters on here who are very fulfilled by work and can’t fathom an existence not working. There is a lot more to life than your job.

Perhaps, but the question was whether the HR manager is more “valuable” than the Cub Scout volunteer— as though those two things are mutually exclusive.

Your mother sounds like she was happy and fulfilled but nothing you describe her doing is “valuable”. Why isn’t it enough for SAHMs to just…be happy and fulfilled? Why do we need to make up a story about them adding value?

Because there has been a push for women to be treated as men and men are judged for their actions and the value they add. It’s no longer appropriate for a woman to just be a homemaker and enjoy her life while raising children and tending to a house. She has to earn an income or provide some sort of labor for others outside of her immediate family.

I think you’re making up a problem.
Stay at home homes of school aged kids could be doing ‘more’. That’s not a new societal expectation, it’s just the observation of anyone with eyes and a brain. Should they be doing more? If they can afford not to work, and still set their kids up with nest eggs and pay for college so no student loans then sure - enjoy! But expecting society to recognize sahm of school aged kids as a full time ‘job’ is ridiculous and a waste of everyone’s time

What’s ridiculous is your bizarre insistence on gatekeeping here. If a woman tells you her job is being a SAHM or a housewife and you disagree with her characterization of what she does as a job, just smile and nod and move the hell on with your life and your own business. Why are you wasting your time (and hers) trying to prove her wrong?

A. The whole point of the thread is to have an opinion on this. If you don’t like this one, why not just smile and nod and move on with your life rather than try prove it wrong?

B. Because it’s a lie and if full time working moms can do a job while kids are at school AND all the things sahms describe as a ‘full time job’ - they’re going to say so rather than be quiet. I’m sure sahms can handle it.

Look - if dh earned enough for me to not work plus save to help my kids, plus vacas etc - I wouldn’t have my same job (I would personally prob have another thing but I get why someone would not). But I wouldn’t be out there saying I ‘couldn’t’ work bc being a sahm to school aged kids is a full time job.

JFC, lady, literally NO ONE has said this. You are insufferable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well yeah of course. Being a stay at home mom is a full-time job. But being a work out of the home means you have two full time jobs which is exhausting.

Being a sahm to school aged is NOT a full time job. I think that’s been clearly established.
Which is ok.

It depends. You can be an intense cook, cleaner, gardener, handyperson, room parent, helping neighbor or family, etc.

Right? Often jobs are as intense as you make them. I certainly wasn’t working intensely for 8-9 hours straight at my paid employment with zero downtime/breaks/social interaction. I suspect a lot of other professional jobs are similar. The only full-time thing about it in many seasons was the fact that I had to be physically present full-time to take care of any tasks as they came up (and those tasks were often mundane and easy and quite frankly pointless). There were of course busy times where I worked my butt off, but that was not the norm.

I feel like maybe people don’t realize they hold SAHM as a “job” to a completely different standard than they might hold their own paid employment. Because I don’t think my experience was totally unusual.

You were lucky to have an easy job. But when so. Being away from your home for 8 hours plus commute and having to spend your remaining waking hours caring for a child/children is exhausting

That’s the thing - you can do just as much stuff as a sahm if you work and have school aged kids - esp if you have location flex (which frankly I would not take a job without). You’re just more burned out.
But the ‘sahm to school aged kids is a full time job’ people need to just - stop.

You’re missing the point. You can do just as much as SOME stay at home moms, but not the ones who actually treat it as a full time job. And the stuff you do undoubtedly won’t be to the same standard. And that’s fine, but why are you insisting that other women don’t get to call their job a job?

You cannot do as much housework as a SAHM can, that is absolutely true. And your toilets may certainly be dirtier and your ironing may be more erratic.

But for a school age child who is in school in the normal school hours, you can easily do just as much *parenting* at the same “standard” whatever precisely that means.

What do you mean? Do you mean that working moms spend the same amount of hours with their kid per day as a SAHM? I don’t see how that’s possible if the mom is working 40 hours per week, so I may be misunderstanding.

I wft and this is basically true. I either drop kids at 830a, run home (as in go for a run but end up at home), shower and online on calls by 930, then dh gets kids and they are home by 530. Or dh drops them and I am online by 830-9 then pick them up at 5. I would not get them earlier very often even if I didn’t work bc it’s better for them to be playing basketball or doing music classes at school than in our small apt (nyc). We log off early on Fridays so I get them at 315 that day. I do do a lot of work after they go to bed and I am tired in the evening so prob not gazing into their eyes and leaning into further enrichment (they are also tired and typically watch a little tv or we watch together) so I’m def not bringing my a game to the party as much as I would be if I’d chilled all day. That is true

Op here. This thread has gone off the rails and devolved into a debate mostly about whether elementary school SAHM do as much work, but to go back to the original intention of my post, this is my point. It’s easier to be a present, involved parent when you’re not working because you’re well rested when the kids are around. I too spent a lot of time with my kids when working because I wfh with lots of flexibility, but I didn’t realize how tired I was during those times. Now that I have down time when kids are at activities, I’m so much more engaged and happy and not distracted by the other things on my mind when i am with them.

Although - unless you do early drop off at camp- you ARE distracted by dcum when you are with them 😉

Ha, I DCUM every morning on the toilet during my morning poo. Usually during 8-8:15. DH is still having breakfast with DCs but when you got to go, you’ve got to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well yeah of course. Being a stay at home mom is a full-time job. But being a work out of the home means you have two full time jobs which is exhausting.

Being a sahm to school aged is NOT a full time job. I think that’s been clearly established.
Which is ok.

It depends. You can be an intense cook, cleaner, gardener, handyperson, room parent, helping neighbor or family, etc.

Right? Often jobs are as intense as you make them. I certainly wasn’t working intensely for 8-9 hours straight at my paid employment with zero downtime/breaks/social interaction. I suspect a lot of other professional jobs are similar. The only full-time thing about it in many seasons was the fact that I had to be physically present full-time to take care of any tasks as they came up (and those tasks were often mundane and easy and quite frankly pointless). There were of course busy times where I worked my butt off, but that was not the norm.

I feel like maybe people don’t realize they hold SAHM as a “job” to a completely different standard than they might hold their own paid employment. Because I don’t think my experience was totally unusual.

You were lucky to have an easy job. But when so. Being away from your home for 8 hours plus commute and having to spend your remaining waking hours caring for a child/children is exhausting

That’s the thing - you can do just as much stuff as a sahm if you work and have school aged kids - esp if you have location flex (which frankly I would not take a job without). You’re just more burned out.
But the ‘sahm to school aged kids is a full time job’ people need to just - stop.

You’re missing the point. You can do just as much as SOME stay at home moms, but not the ones who actually treat it as a full time job. And the stuff you do undoubtedly won’t be to the same standard. And that’s fine, but why are you insisting that other women don’t get to call their job a job?

You cannot do as much housework as a SAHM can, that is absolutely true. And your toilets may certainly be dirtier and your ironing may be more erratic.

But for a school age child who is in school in the normal school hours, you can easily do just as much *parenting* at the same “standard” whatever precisely that means.

What do you mean? Do you mean that working moms spend the same amount of hours with their kid per day as a SAHM? I don’t see how that’s possible if the mom is working 40 hours per week, so I may be misunderstanding.

I wft and this is basically true. I either drop kids at 830a, run home (as in go for a run but end up at home), shower and online on calls by 930, then dh gets kids and they are home by 530. Or dh drops them and I am online by 830-9 then pick them up at 5. I would not get them earlier very often even if I didn’t work bc it’s better for them to be playing basketball or doing music classes at school than in our small apt (nyc). We log off early on Fridays so I get them at 315 that day. I do do a lot of work after they go to bed and I am tired in the evening so prob not gazing into their eyes and leaning into further enrichment (they are also tired and typically watch a little tv or we watch together) so I’m def not bringing my a game to the party as much as I would be if I’d chilled all day. That is true

Op here. This thread has gone off the rails and devolved into a debate mostly about whether elementary school SAHM do as much work, but to go back to the original intention of my post, this is my point. It’s easier to be a present, involved parent when you’re not working because you’re well rested when the kids are around. I too spent a lot of time with my kids when working because I wfh with lots of flexibility, but I didn’t realize how tired I was during those times. Now that I have down time when kids are at activities, I’m so much more engaged and happy and not distracted by the other things on my mind when i am with them.

Your whole premise is completely and categorically incorrect.

SAHM are not necessarily more rested and hence present and patient with kids.

I’d argue they are more exhausted, sick of and stressed by their kids because they have no other outlets, are busy cleaning and cooking, and generally are less present because they are with the kids with no other intellectual outlet.

Many are less happy, well rested, etc by mind numbing tv, posting on DCUM, etc.

DP here. I am the happiest when I am with my kids.

when I quit my job to become a sahm, I retained my cleaners and increased their hours and frequency (twice a week) so that they could also do laundry, food prep, decluttering, organizing for me under my supervision.

I knew that if my DH would have become a sah parent, he would have first made sure that he had a team of domestic helpers to help him succeed. His goal would be to focus only on the children and the success of our family life. The point of becoming a sah parent is to spend time with the kids primarily. The fact that the at home parent can also function as a house-manager and make the household run smoothly and free up the time for other members of the family is a bonus.

The most important commodity in the world is time. If you can buy the labor and time of other people for every other boring chore and free up your time, you can focus on what is important.

You sound like an outlier.

Most SAHM are counting the hours to hand off their kids to dad when he gets home, get bitter that they have to do bedtime routine with no help, and exhausted being with kids all day, and cooking, shopping, then doing dishes while the “breadwinner” expects them to “do it all” because “that’s their job now”.

Also it ribs kids of having 2 parents.

Wait, which is it… SAHMs do nothing more than “Pilates and lunch duty” and add “no value” to their family’s lives, or SAHMs are “exhausted being with kids all day” and “bitter” and “counting the hours to hand off the kids to dad”?

(Quoting PPs)

You working moms sure have a lot to say about other women’s lives!

NP here. Let me clarify it for you. The SAHMs with school aged kids just have to do ‘Pilates and lunch duty’

The SAHMs with younger kids who are not in school all day are ‘exhausted bring with their kids all day’ and ‘counting the hours to hand off the kids to dad!’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well yeah of course. Being a stay at home mom is a full-time job. But being a work out of the home means you have two full time jobs which is exhausting.

Being a sahm to school aged is NOT a full time job. I think that’s been clearly established.
Which is ok.

It depends. You can be an intense cook, cleaner, gardener, handyperson, room parent, helping neighbor or family, etc.

Right? Often jobs are as intense as you make them. I certainly wasn’t working intensely for 8-9 hours straight at my paid employment with zero downtime/breaks/social interaction. I suspect a lot of other professional jobs are similar. The only full-time thing about it in many seasons was the fact that I had to be physically present full-time to take care of any tasks as they came up (and those tasks were often mundane and easy and quite frankly pointless). There were of course busy times where I worked my butt off, but that was not the norm.

I feel like maybe people don’t realize they hold SAHM as a “job” to a completely different standard than they might hold their own paid employment. Because I don’t think my experience was totally unusual.

You were lucky to have an easy job. But when so. Being away from your home for 8 hours plus commute and having to spend your remaining waking hours caring for a child/children is exhausting

That’s the thing - you can do just as much stuff as a sahm if you work and have school aged kids - esp if you have location flex (which frankly I would not take a job without). You’re just more burned out.
But the ‘sahm to school aged kids is a full time job’ people need to just - stop.

You’re missing the point. You can do just as much as SOME stay at home moms, but not the ones who actually treat it as a full time job. And the stuff you do undoubtedly won’t be to the same standard. And that’s fine, but why are you insisting that other women don’t get to call their job a job?

You cannot do as much housework as a SAHM can, that is absolutely true. And your toilets may certainly be dirtier and your ironing may be more erratic.

But for a school age child who is in school in the normal school hours, you can easily do just as much *parenting* at the same “standard” whatever precisely that means.

What do you mean? Do you mean that working moms spend the same amount of hours with their kid per day as a SAHM? I don’t see how that’s possible if the mom is working 40 hours per week, so I may be misunderstanding.

I wft and this is basically true. I either drop kids at 830a, run home (as in go for a run but end up at home), shower and online on calls by 930, then dh gets kids and they are home by 530. Or dh drops them and I am online by 830-9 then pick them up at 5. I would not get them earlier very often even if I didn’t work bc it’s better for them to be playing basketball or doing music classes at school than in our small apt (nyc). We log off early on Fridays so I get them at 315 that day. I do do a lot of work after they go to bed and I am tired in the evening so prob not gazing into their eyes and leaning into further enrichment (they are also tired and typically watch a little tv or we watch together) so I’m def not bringing my a game to the party as much as I would be if I’d chilled all day. That is true

Op here. This thread has gone off the rails and devolved into a debate mostly about whether elementary school SAHM do as much work, but to go back to the original intention of my post, this is my point. It’s easier to be a present, involved parent when you’re not working because you’re well rested when the kids are around. I too spent a lot of time with my kids when working because I wfh with lots of flexibility, but I didn’t realize how tired I was during those times. Now that I have down time when kids are at activities, I’m so much more engaged and happy and not distracted by the other things on my mind when i am with them.

Your whole premise is completely and categorically incorrect.

SAHM are not necessarily more rested and hence present and patient with kids.

I’d argue they are more exhausted, sick of and stressed by their kids because they have no other outlets, are busy cleaning and cooking, and generally are less present because they are with the kids with no other intellectual outlet.

Many are less happy, well rested, etc by mind numbing tv, posting on DCUM, etc.

DP here. I am the happiest when I am with my kids.

when I quit my job to become a sahm, I retained my cleaners and increased their hours and frequency (twice a week) so that they could also do laundry, food prep, decluttering, organizing for me under my supervision.

I knew that if my DH would have become a sah parent, he would have first made sure that he had a team of domestic helpers to help him succeed. His goal would be to focus only on the children and the success of our family life. The point of becoming a sah parent is to spend time with the kids primarily. The fact that the at home parent can also function as a house-manager and make the household run smoothly and free up the time for other members of the family is a bonus.

The most important commodity in the world is time. If you can buy the labor and time of other people for every other boring chore and free up your time, you can focus on what is important.

You sound like an outlier.

Most SAHM are counting the hours to hand off their kids to dad when he gets home, get bitter that they have to do bedtime routine with no help, and exhausted being with kids all day, and cooking, shopping, then doing dishes while the “breadwinner” expects them to “do it all” because “that’s their job now”.

Also it ribs kids of having 2 parents.

Wait, which is it… SAHMs do nothing more than “Pilates and lunch duty” and add “no value” to their family’s lives, or SAHMs are “exhausted being with kids all day” and “bitter” and “counting the hours to hand off the kids to dad”?

(Quoting PPs)

You working moms sure have a lot to say about other women’s lives!

NP here. Let me clarify it for you. The SAHMs with school aged kids just have to do ‘Pilates and lunch duty’

The SAHMs with younger kids who are not in school all day are ‘exhausted bring with their kids all day’ and ‘counting the hours to hand off the kids to dad!’

My smartest SAHM friends worked while their kids were young and before their husbands' careers took off, but now they stay home and attend to Pilates and lunch with the ladies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is 100% true even if stay at home moms love to pretend it’s not. Because their life is just sooooooo hard.

Eh. I agree with OP--it is easier to be a better parent when not trying to balance a paid job. But, being a SAHM is, for many women, soooo hard. I mean, if you have 1 kid and a full time nanny and tons of money, I imagine that is a cushy life. But that isn't the typical SAHM. My friends who have done it have 2-5 kids, varying amounts of money, and someone always needs something. I only have one SAHM friend whose husband truly takes on an equal share of work between 5:30 pm or so and 8 am or so. For the most part, SAHMs seem to do ALL or almost all of the kid and household stuff. I would go out of my mind in that situation. Yes, I get that there are some women who do all of almost all of the household and kid stuff except for outsourcing childcare while they also work a full-time job, and that would also be a nightmare to me. But I know more working moms with spouses that do their share of the work than SAHMs with spouses doing their share (I don't mean 50%--but 50% of what needs to be done when the working spouse is not working).

Once the kids are school aged, it’s silly for the DH of a SAHM to do 50% after work hours. I have down time during the day when the kids are at school/camp, he doesn’t. Of course he should have down time in the evenings! He was completely hands on in the under-5 years and still is very involved, helps cook, drives to activities, even coaches. But now that the kids don’t need supervision for showers or evening play time, he’s fine to sit and read while I clean the kitchen or switch the laundry. I get my rest during his workday! I can’t imagine nickel-and-diming him when we have such a nice life thanks to him.

Idk… there is just something so pathetic about this dynamic to me. I don’t want my kids thinking “Dad goes into the world and makes money and has exciting experiences. Mom mops the kitchen and folds laundry.” It’s better to model a healthy, balanced relationship with spouses on equal footing.

Do you know any real people? Most people who work wouldn’t call it exciting experiences, it is a paycheck. Very few people make or female really love their jobs. Also if you think SAHMS just mop and fold laundry then you must not know any. There are many valuable and rewarding ways in which one can use their time.

Like Pilates and lunch duty?

If not, can you explain what is valuable and rewarding?

That’s not what I do but given your examples I’m not sure what is wrong with taking care of yourself and contributing to your community? Does one need a paycheck to validate their existence? Is the HR manager more valuable than the person who volunteers at the school and runs the Cub Scout troop?

The HR manager and the person who runs the Cub Scout troop and volunteers at the school are (statistically) all the same person. Parents who have jobs outside the home still volunteer and coach and lead extra curricular activities.

Right but you’re missing the point. Many people don’t need to earn a paycheck to be fulfilled or feel as though they are adding value. Most people are working for a paycheck and would not continue working if their employer stopped paying them.

My parents were wealthy and my mom didn’t work past the age of 32. She played tennis, socialized, kept a nice home and traveled extensively. Think the south of France every July. She had no desire to work for a living and the money wasn’t necessary. If I had to guess, she likely would have felt bad for someone sitting in front of a laptop all day instead of someone outside enjoying nature and meeting up with friends.

There are a lot of posters on here who are very fulfilled by work and can’t fathom an existence not working. There is a lot more to life than your job.

Perhaps, but the question was whether the HR manager is more “valuable” than the Cub Scout volunteer— as though those two things are mutually exclusive.

Your mother sounds like she was happy and fulfilled but nothing you describe her doing is “valuable”. Why isn’t it enough for SAHMs to just…be happy and fulfilled? Why do we need to make up a story about them adding value?

Because there has been a push for women to be treated as men and men are judged for their actions and the value they add. It’s no longer appropriate for a woman to just be a homemaker and enjoy her life while raising children and tending to a house. She has to earn an income or provide some sort of labor for others outside of her immediate family.

I think you’re making up a problem.
Stay at home homes of school aged kids could be doing ‘more’. That’s not a new societal expectation, it’s just the observation of anyone with eyes and a brain. Should they be doing more? If they can afford not to work, and still set their kids up with nest eggs and pay for college so no student loans then sure - enjoy! But expecting society to recognize sahm of school aged kids as a full time ‘job’ is ridiculous and a waste of everyone’s time

What’s ridiculous is your bizarre insistence on gatekeeping here. If a woman tells you her job is being a SAHM or a housewife and you disagree with her characterization of what she does as a job, just smile and nod and move the hell on with your life and your own business. Why are you wasting your time (and hers) trying to prove her wrong?

A. The whole point of the thread is to have an opinion on this. If you don’t like this one, why not just smile and nod and move on with your life rather than try prove it wrong?

B. Because it’s a lie and if full time working moms can do a job while kids are at school AND all the things sahms describe as a ‘full time job’ - they’re going to say so rather than be quiet. I’m sure sahms can handle it.

Look - if dh earned enough for me to not work plus save to help my kids, plus vacas etc - I wouldn’t have my same job (I would personally prob have another thing but I get why someone would not). But I wouldn’t be out there saying I ‘couldn’t’ work bc being a sahm to school aged kids is a full time job.

This, right here. I would not do the high earning stressful job I have now. I'd do something stress free and part time. But it's ok to say you don't want to... just don't say you CAN'T

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Anonymous wrote:Well yeah of course. Being a stay at home mom is a full-time job. But being a work out of the home means you have two full time jobs which is exhausting.

Being a sahm to school aged is NOT a full time job. I think that’s been clearly established.
Which is ok.

It depends. You can be an intense cook, cleaner, gardener, handyperson, room parent, helping neighbor or family, etc.

Right? Often jobs are as intense as you make them. I certainly wasn’t working intensely for 8-9 hours straight at my paid employment with zero downtime/breaks/social interaction. I suspect a lot of other professional jobs are similar. The only full-time thing about it in many seasons was the fact that I had to be physically present full-time to take care of any tasks as they came up (and those tasks were often mundane and easy and quite frankly pointless). There were of course busy times where I worked my butt off, but that was not the norm.

I feel like maybe people don’t realize they hold SAHM as a “job” to a completely different standard than they might hold their own paid employment. Because I don’t think my experience was totally unusual.

You were lucky to have an easy job. But when so. Being away from your home for 8 hours plus commute and having to spend your remaining waking hours caring for a child/children is exhausting

That’s the thing - you can do just as much stuff as a sahm if you work and have school aged kids - esp if you have location flex (which frankly I would not take a job without). You’re just more burned out.
But the ‘sahm to school aged kids is a full time job’ people need to just - stop.

You’re missing the point. You can do just as much as SOME stay at home moms, but not the ones who actually treat it as a full time job. And the stuff you do undoubtedly won’t be to the same standard. And that’s fine, but why are you insisting that other women don’t get to call their job a job?

You cannot do as much housework as a SAHM can, that is absolutely true. And your toilets may certainly be dirtier and your ironing may be more erratic.

But for a school age child who is in school in the normal school hours, you can easily do just as much *parenting* at the same “standard” whatever precisely that means.

What do you mean? Do you mean that working moms spend the same amount of hours with their kid per day as a SAHM? I don’t see how that’s possible if the mom is working 40 hours per week, so I may be misunderstanding.

I wft and this is basically true. I either drop kids at 830a, run home (as in go for a run but end up at home), shower and online on calls by 930, then dh gets kids and they are home by 530. Or dh drops them and I am online by 830-9 then pick them up at 5. I would not get them earlier very often even if I didn’t work bc it’s better for them to be playing basketball or doing music classes at school than in our small apt (nyc). We log off early on Fridays so I get them at 315 that day. I do do a lot of work after they go to bed and I am tired in the evening so prob not gazing into their eyes and leaning into further enrichment (they are also tired and typically watch a little tv or we watch together) so I’m def not bringing my a game to the party as much as I would be if I’d chilled all day. That is true

Op here. This thread has gone off the rails and devolved into a debate mostly about whether elementary school SAHM do as much work, but to go back to the original intention of my post, this is my point. It’s easier to be a present, involved parent when you’re not working because you’re well rested when the kids are around. I too spent a lot of time with my kids when working because I wfh with lots of flexibility, but I didn’t realize how tired I was during those times. Now that I have down time when kids are at activities, I’m so much more engaged and happy and not distracted by the other things on my mind when i am with them.

Your whole premise is completely and categorically incorrect.

SAHM are not necessarily more rested and hence present and patient with kids.

I’d argue they are more exhausted, sick of and stressed by their kids because they have no other outlets, are busy cleaning and cooking, and generally are less present because they are with the kids with no other intellectual outlet.

Many are less happy, well rested, etc by mind numbing tv, posting on DCUM, etc.

DP here. I am the happiest when I am with my kids.

when I quit my job to become a sahm, I retained my cleaners and increased their hours and frequency (twice a week) so that they could also do laundry, food prep, decluttering, organizing for me under my supervision.

I knew that if my DH would have become a sah parent, he would have first made sure that he had a team of domestic helpers to help him succeed. His goal would be to focus only on the children and the success of our family life. The point of becoming a sah parent is to spend time with the kids primarily. The fact that the at home parent can also function as a house-manager and make the household run smoothly and free up the time for other members of the family is a bonus.

The most important commodity in the world is time. If you can buy the labor and time of other people for every other boring chore and free up your time, you can focus on what is important.

You sound like an outlier.

Most SAHM are counting the hours to hand off their kids to dad when he gets home, get bitter that they have to do bedtime routine with no help, and exhausted being with kids all day, and cooking, shopping, then doing dishes while the “breadwinner” expects them to “do it all” because “that’s their job now”.

Also it ribs kids of having 2 parents.

Hmmm, I think I am an outlier then and most women in my circles are similar to me. My DH also wanted to spent a lot of time with the kids once he got home so it was great that I did not need him to do anything pertaining to running the household. As I said - pay for outsourcing work and reclaim your time.

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Anonymous wrote:This is 100% true even if stay at home moms love to pretend it’s not. Because their life is just sooooooo hard.

Eh. I agree with OP--it is easier to be a better parent when not trying to balance a paid job. But, being a SAHM is, for many women, soooo hard. I mean, if you have 1 kid and a full time nanny and tons of money, I imagine that is a cushy life. But that isn't the typical SAHM. My friends who have done it have 2-5 kids, varying amounts of money, and someone always needs something. I only have one SAHM friend whose husband truly takes on an equal share of work between 5:30 pm or so and 8 am or so. For the most part, SAHMs seem to do ALL or almost all of the kid and household stuff. I would go out of my mind in that situation. Yes, I get that there are some women who do all of almost all of the household and kid stuff except for outsourcing childcare while they also work a full-time job, and that would also be a nightmare to me. But I know more working moms with spouses that do their share of the work than SAHMs with spouses doing their share (I don't mean 50%--but 50% of what needs to be done when the working spouse is not working).

Once the kids are school aged, it’s silly for the DH of a SAHM to do 50% after work hours. I have down time during the day when the kids are at school/camp, he doesn’t. Of course he should have down time in the evenings! He was completely hands on in the under-5 years and still is very involved, helps cook, drives to activities, even coaches. But now that the kids don’t need supervision for showers or evening play time, he’s fine to sit and read while I clean the kitchen or switch the laundry. I get my rest during his workday! I can’t imagine nickel-and-diming him when we have such a nice life thanks to him.

Idk… there is just something so pathetic about this dynamic to me. I don’t want my kids thinking “Dad goes into the world and makes money and has exciting experiences. Mom mops the kitchen and folds laundry.” It’s better to model a healthy, balanced relationship with spouses on equal footing.

Do you know any real people? Most people who work wouldn’t call it exciting experiences, it is a paycheck. Very few people make or female really love their jobs. Also if you think SAHMS just mop and fold laundry then you must not know any. There are many valuable and rewarding ways in which one can use their time.

Like Pilates and lunch duty?

If not, can you explain what is valuable and rewarding?

That’s not what I do but given your examples I’m not sure what is wrong with taking care of yourself and contributing to your community? Does one need a paycheck to validate their existence? Is the HR manager more valuable than the person who volunteers at the school and runs the Cub Scout troop?

The HR manager and the person who runs the Cub Scout troop and volunteers at the school are (statistically) all the same person. Parents who have jobs outside the home still volunteer and coach and lead extra curricular activities.

Right but you’re missing the point. Many people don’t need to earn a paycheck to be fulfilled or feel as though they are adding value. Most people are working for a paycheck and would not continue working if their employer stopped paying them.

My parents were wealthy and my mom didn’t work past the age of 32. She played tennis, socialized, kept a nice home and traveled extensively. Think the south of France every July. She had no desire to work for a living and the money wasn’t necessary. If I had to guess, she likely would have felt bad for someone sitting in front of a laptop all day instead of someone outside enjoying nature and meeting up with friends.

There are a lot of posters on here who are very fulfilled by work and can’t fathom an existence not working. There is a lot more to life than your job.

Perhaps, but the question was whether the HR manager is more “valuable” than the Cub Scout volunteer— as though those two things are mutually exclusive.

Your mother sounds like she was happy and fulfilled but nothing you describe her doing is “valuable”. Why isn’t it enough for SAHMs to just…be happy and fulfilled? Why do we need to make up a story about them adding value?

Because there has been a push for women to be treated as men and men are judged for their actions and the value they add. It’s no longer appropriate for a woman to just be a homemaker and enjoy her life while raising children and tending to a house. She has to earn an income or provide some sort of labor for others outside of her immediate family.

I think you’re making up a problem.
Stay at home homes of school aged kids could be doing ‘more’. That’s not a new societal expectation, it’s just the observation of anyone with eyes and a brain. Should they be doing more? If they can afford not to work, and still set their kids up with nest eggs and pay for college so no student loans then sure - enjoy! But expecting society to recognize sahm of school aged kids as a full time ‘job’ is ridiculous and a waste of everyone’s time

What’s ridiculous is your bizarre insistence on gatekeeping here. If a woman tells you her job is being a SAHM or a housewife and you disagree with her characterization of what she does as a job, just smile and nod and move the hell on with your life and your own business. Why are you wasting your time (and hers) trying to prove her wrong?

A. The whole point of the thread is to have an opinion on this. If you don’t like this one, why not just smile and nod and move on with your life rather than try prove it wrong?

B. Because it’s a lie and if full time working moms can do a job while kids are at school AND all the things sahms describe as a ‘full time job’ - they’re going to say so rather than be quiet. I’m sure sahms can handle it.

Look - if dh earned enough for me to not work plus save to help my kids, plus vacas etc - I wouldn’t have my same job (I would personally prob have another thing but I get why someone would not). But I wouldn’t be out there saying I ‘couldn’t’ work bc being a sahm to school aged kids is a full time job.

JFC, lady, literally NO ONE has said this. You are insufferable.

LOL! Maybe she hears voices.