Anonymous wrote:This is OP checking back in again with appreciation for all the food for thought. I have a lot more reading to do to refresh my memories and deepen my understanding. Asking questions about faith was a big part of the Lutheran church because that's essentially what Martin Luther did. I suppose people called him a troll, in some form or another, as well.
You are either a troll, or don’t know your own religion.
You are quick with the troll trigger finger! Kindly, could you stop the name calling? I don't think it's helpful.
Might you try to understand that people ask questions to puzzle things out? Especially if they get to the point when their understanding or faith in something appears to be at odds with their family members' understanding? And that different pastors/theologians/scholars have discussed the same concept in different ways?
I'm open to hearing other viewpoints. I'm sorry that is triggering to you.
+1. perhaps best to try to ignore the "Troll" troll.
Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.
Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?
My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.
It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.
Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.
As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.
The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.
If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?
For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.
How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.
Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.
Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?
Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?
No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.
I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?
No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.
Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.
DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.
So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.
I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:
The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.
“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…
… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”
? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.
In Catholicism, it's a given that you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, but there's a lot more to Catholicism than that. You have to have.received the sacraments, have a clean soul, follow the tenets of the church, etc., etc.
"Accepting Jesus as your savior" and "Taking Jesus into your heart" are evangelical Protestant things, not Catholic things. Catholicism is much more complex and sophisticated than that.
Wait, it’s not consistent with Catholicism to say “I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior”?
Correct. Catholics can say it, if they want, but it's not part of their tradition. Infant baptism is the tradition in Catholicism, so babies become Christian without knowing it or choosing it.
Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.
Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?
My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.
It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.
Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.
As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.
The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.
If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?
For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.
How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.
Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.
Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?
Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?
No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.
I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?
No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.
Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.
DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.
So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.
I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:
The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.
“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…
… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”
? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.
In Catholicism, it's a given that you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, but there's a lot more to Catholicism than that. You have to have.received the sacraments, have a clean soul, follow the tenets of the church, etc., etc.
"Accepting Jesus as your savior" and "Taking Jesus into your heart" are evangelical Protestant things, not Catholic things. Catholicism is much more complex and sophisticated than that.
Wait, it’s not consistent with Catholicism to say “I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior”?
Correct. Catholics can say it, if they want, but it's not part of their tradition. Infant baptism is the tradition in Catholicism, so babies become Christian without knowing it or choosing it.
They get claimed by the church, basically. Before they can give consent.
Anonymous wrote:And to your second point: Please point to something in the Catechism that says you can access Heaven even if you do not accept Jesus during your lifetime (and you have had the opportunity to do so, through being exposed to the Gospel).
I really think we need to root this conversation in official Church doctrine.
Catechism paragraph 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Yeah, they’re sort of grandfathered in because they also adhere to an Abrahamic religion. But what does it say about those who are atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.?
Look. You asked me to point out something in the Catechism that says that people who are not baptized Catholic can still enter Heaven. This is what came to mind. I don’t have the Catechism memorized. I’m just a mom driving kids around after school. I have to make dinner now, and I have to do some work tonight after the kids go to bed, so I won’t be back.
I hope that you find some of the answers that you are looking for. And I do recommend CS Lewis “The Great Divorce” if you are looking for some thoughts on Heaven and Hell.
I will keep you in my prayers today.
I hope that you consider that the Church isn’t
Why are you praying for me?
I don’t know. I wish you well, peace, and a lightening of your burdens.
It wasn’t a long prayer. That was pretty much it.
Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.
Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?
My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.
It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.
Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.
As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.
The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.
If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?
For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.
How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.
Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.
Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?
Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?
No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.
I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?
No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.
Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.
DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.
So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.
I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:
The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.
“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…
… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”
? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.
In Catholicism, it's a given that you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, but there's a lot more to Catholicism than that. You have to have.received the sacraments, have a clean soul, follow the tenets of the church, etc., etc.
"Accepting Jesus as your savior" and "Taking Jesus into your heart" are evangelical Protestant things, not Catholic things. Catholicism is much more complex and sophisticated than that.
Wait, it’s not consistent with Catholicism to say “I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior”?
Right. Those are things that mean that there was some sort of event that happened in the past that guaranteed your salvation, and it’s over. In Catholicism, you are working toward a salvation that won’t be completed until after death.
Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.
Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?
My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.
It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.
Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.
As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.
The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.
If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?
For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.
How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.
Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.
Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?
Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?
No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.
I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?
No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.
Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.
DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.
So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.
I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:
The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.
“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…
… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”
? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.
In Catholicism, it's a given that you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, but there's a lot more to Catholicism than that. You have to have.received the sacraments, have a clean soul, follow the tenets of the church, etc., etc.
"Accepting Jesus as your savior" and "Taking Jesus into your heart" are evangelical Protestant things, not Catholic things. Catholicism is much more complex and sophisticated than that.
Wait, it’s not consistent with Catholicism to say “I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior”?
Right. Those are things that mean that there was some sort of event that happened in the past that guaranteed your salvation, and it’s over. In Catholicism, you are working toward a salvation that won’t be completed until after death.
Right. Also Confirmation, at the age of 14 or so, "confirms" your commitment to Jesus at a time people are considered old enough to understand and thus consciously do it themselves. Stilll , they need to observe the tenets of the Catholic Church throughout their lives to ensure their ultimate arrival in heaven for eternity.
Anonymous wrote:And to your second point: Please point to something in the Catechism that says you can access Heaven even if you do not accept Jesus during your lifetime (and you have had the opportunity to do so, through being exposed to the Gospel).
I really think we need to root this conversation in official Church doctrine.
Catechism paragraph 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Yeah, they’re sort of grandfathered in because they also adhere to an Abrahamic religion. But what does it say about those who are atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.?
Look. You asked me to point out something in the Catechism that says that people who are not baptized Catholic can still enter Heaven. This is what came to mind. I don’t have the Catechism memorized. I’m just a mom driving kids around after school. I have to make dinner now, and I have to do some work tonight after the kids go to bed, so I won’t be back.
I hope that you find some of the answers that you are looking for. And I do recommend CS Lewis “The Great Divorce” if you are looking for some thoughts on Heaven and Hell.
I will keep you in my prayers today.
I hope that you consider that the Church isn’t
Why are you praying for me?
I don’t know. I wish you well, peace, and a lightening of your burdens.
It wasn’t a long prayer. That was pretty much it.
Thanks, I guess? I just don’t know why you felt that I specifically needed to be prayed for.
Anonymous wrote:And to your second point: Please point to something in the Catechism that says you can access Heaven even if you do not accept Jesus during your lifetime (and you have had the opportunity to do so, through being exposed to the Gospel).
I really think we need to root this conversation in official Church doctrine.
Catechism paragraph 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Yeah, they’re sort of grandfathered in because they also adhere to an Abrahamic religion. But what does it say about those who are atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.?
Look. You asked me to point out something in the Catechism that says that people who are not baptized Catholic can still enter Heaven. This is what came to mind. I don’t have the Catechism memorized. I’m just a mom driving kids around after school. I have to make dinner now, and I have to do some work tonight after the kids go to bed, so I won’t be back.
I hope that you find some of the answers that you are looking for. And I do recommend CS Lewis “The Great Divorce” if you are looking for some thoughts on Heaven and Hell.
I will keep you in my prayers today.
I hope that you consider that the Church isn’t
Why are you praying for me?
I don’t know. I wish you well, peace, and a lightening of your burdens.
It wasn’t a long prayer. That was pretty much it.
Thanks, I guess? I just don’t know why you felt that I specifically needed to be prayed for.
Do you know anyone who doesn’t? I think you are being a little paranoid.
Anonymous wrote:And to your second point: Please point to something in the Catechism that says you can access Heaven even if you do not accept Jesus during your lifetime (and you have had the opportunity to do so, through being exposed to the Gospel).
I really think we need to root this conversation in official Church doctrine.
Catechism paragraph 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Yeah, they’re sort of grandfathered in because they also adhere to an Abrahamic religion. But what does it say about those who are atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.?
Look. You asked me to point out something in the Catechism that says that people who are not baptized Catholic can still enter Heaven. This is what came to mind. I don’t have the Catechism memorized. I’m just a mom driving kids around after school. I have to make dinner now, and I have to do some work tonight after the kids go to bed, so I won’t be back.
I hope that you find some of the answers that you are looking for. And I do recommend CS Lewis “The Great Divorce” if you are looking for some thoughts on Heaven and Hell.
I will keep you in my prayers today.
I hope that you consider that the Church isn’t
Why are you praying for me?
I don’t know. I wish you well, peace, and a lightening of your burdens.
It wasn’t a long prayer. That was pretty much it.
Thanks, I guess? I just don’t know why you felt that I specifically needed to be prayed for.
Do you know anyone who doesn’t? I think you are being a little paranoid.
Anonymous wrote:And to your second point: Please point to something in the Catechism that says you can access Heaven even if you do not accept Jesus during your lifetime (and you have had the opportunity to do so, through being exposed to the Gospel).
I really think we need to root this conversation in official Church doctrine.
Catechism paragraph 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Yeah, they’re sort of grandfathered in because they also adhere to an Abrahamic religion. But what does it say about those who are atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.?
Look. You asked me to point out something in the Catechism that says that people who are not baptized Catholic can still enter Heaven. This is what came to mind. I don’t have the Catechism memorized. I’m just a mom driving kids around after school. I have to make dinner now, and I have to do some work tonight after the kids go to bed, so I won’t be back.
I hope that you find some of the answers that you are looking for. And I do recommend CS Lewis “The Great Divorce” if you are looking for some thoughts on Heaven and Hell.
I will keep you in my prayers today.
I hope that you consider that the Church isn’t
Why are you praying for me?
I don’t know. I wish you well, peace, and a lightening of your burdens.
It wasn’t a long prayer. That was pretty much it.
Thanks, I guess? I just don’t know why you felt that I specifically needed to be prayed for.
Do you know anyone who doesn’t? I think you are being a little paranoid.
DP here. I do not need to be prayed for.
I’m the PP who was prayed for. I agree. I find it so presumptuous and arrogant for people to pray for others when they haven’t been asked to do so. It’s one thing if someone says “please pray for my sick relative.” It’s another thing when someone just comes out and says “I’ll pray for you.”
Anonymous wrote:And to your second point: Please point to something in the Catechism that says you can access Heaven even if you do not accept Jesus during your lifetime (and you have had the opportunity to do so, through being exposed to the Gospel).
I really think we need to root this conversation in official Church doctrine.
Catechism paragraph 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Yeah, they’re sort of grandfathered in because they also adhere to an Abrahamic religion. But what does it say about those who are atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.?
Look. You asked me to point out something in the Catechism that says that people who are not baptized Catholic can still enter Heaven. This is what came to mind. I don’t have the Catechism memorized. I’m just a mom driving kids around after school. I have to make dinner now, and I have to do some work tonight after the kids go to bed, so I won’t be back.
I hope that you find some of the answers that you are looking for. And I do recommend CS Lewis “The Great Divorce” if you are looking for some thoughts on Heaven and Hell.
I will keep you in my prayers today.
I hope that you consider that the Church isn’t
Why are you praying for me?
I don’t know. I wish you well, peace, and a lightening of your burdens.
It wasn’t a long prayer. That was pretty much it.
Thanks, I guess? I just don’t know why you felt that I specifically needed to be prayed for.
Do you know anyone who doesn’t? I think you are being a little paranoid.
DP here. I do not need to be prayed for.
I’m the PP who was prayed for. I agree. I find it so presumptuous and arrogant for people to pray for others when they haven’t been asked to do so. It’s one thing if someone says “please pray for my sick relative.” It’s another thing when someone just comes out and says “I’ll pray for you.”
+1. While it can be sincere, it presumes the person wants to be prayed for/thinks the person is doing them some kind of favor.
Anonymous wrote:And to your second point: Please point to something in the Catechism that says you can access Heaven even if you do not accept Jesus during your lifetime (and you have had the opportunity to do so, through being exposed to the Gospel).
I really think we need to root this conversation in official Church doctrine.
Catechism paragraph 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Yeah, they’re sort of grandfathered in because they also adhere to an Abrahamic religion. But what does it say about those who are atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.?
Look. You asked me to point out something in the Catechism that says that people who are not baptized Catholic can still enter Heaven. This is what came to mind. I don’t have the Catechism memorized. I’m just a mom driving kids around after school. I have to make dinner now, and I have to do some work tonight after the kids go to bed, so I won’t be back.
I hope that you find some of the answers that you are looking for. And I do recommend CS Lewis “The Great Divorce” if you are looking for some thoughts on Heaven and Hell.
I will keep you in my prayers today.
I hope that you consider that the Church isn’t
Why are you praying for me?
I don’t know. I wish you well, peace, and a lightening of your burdens.
It wasn’t a long prayer. That was pretty much it.
Thanks, I guess? I just don’t know why you felt that I specifically needed to be prayed for.
Do you know anyone who doesn’t? I think you are being a little paranoid.
I don't want to be prayed for. I think people should save their prayers for people they know will appreciate them - e.g., religious people of their acquaintance --not strangers on the internet
Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.
Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?
My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.
It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.
Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.
As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.
The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.
If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?
For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.
How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.
Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.
Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?
Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?
No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.
I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?
No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.
Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.
DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.
So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.
I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:
The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.
“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…
… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”
? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.
In Catholicism, it's a given that you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, but there's a lot more to Catholicism than that. You have to have.received the sacraments, have a clean soul, follow the tenets of the church, etc., etc.
"Accepting Jesus as your savior" and "Taking Jesus into your heart" are evangelical Protestant things, not Catholic things. Catholicism is much more complex and sophisticated than that.
Wait, it’s not consistent with Catholicism to say “I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior”?
Correct. Catholics can say it, if they want, but it's not part of their tradition. Infant baptism is the tradition in Catholicism, so babies become Christian without knowing it or choosing it.
They get claimed by the church, basically. Before they can give consent.
Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.
Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?
My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.
It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.
Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.
As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.
The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.
If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?
For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.
How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.
Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.
Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?
Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?
No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.
I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?
No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.
Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.
DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.
So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.
I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:
The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.
“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…
… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”
? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.
In Catholicism, it's a given that you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, but there's a lot more to Catholicism than that. You have to have.received the sacraments, have a clean soul, follow the tenets of the church, etc., etc.
"Accepting Jesus as your savior" and "Taking Jesus into your heart" are evangelical Protestant things, not Catholic things. Catholicism is much more complex and sophisticated than that.
Wait, it’s not consistent with Catholicism to say “I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior”?
Right. Those are things that mean that there was some sort of event that happened in the past that guaranteed your salvation, and it’s over. In Catholicism, you are working toward a salvation that won’t be completed until after death.
Right. Also Confirmation, at the age of 14 or so, "confirms" your commitment to Jesus at a time people are considered old enough to understand and thus consciously do it themselves. Stilll , they need to observe the tenets of the Catholic Church throughout their lives to ensure their ultimate arrival in heaven for eternity.
Or just get in confession and manage to do their penance before death. Either way
Anonymous wrote:I can't wrap my mind around this. If we commit to the Creed that "all those who believe in God shall not perish but have eternal life," what happens to those who are not Baptized? I guess that is the whole basis for proselytizing, to make sure everyone can go to heaven, right? But if I have problem believing that God is so vengeful and would really fault babies for their parents' decisions, then it seems hypocritical to baptize my child. I don't want to commit to something in a ceremony that I don't fully endorse.
Where does that leave me? Anyone else struggle with this?
My spouse is Catholic and insisted our kid be baptized. I went along with it because I see no real harm in it. The kid is an adult now and is not at all religious. Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes one way or the other.
It doesn't make any difference to you and it had no effect - or not the desired one - on your kid. But it meant something to your wife at the time. In her mind, the kid would've gone to heaven if it died while still a kid.
Again, the kid doesn't get into heaven. Something called the soul does. But you are right, maybe the point is for the living to have comfort that baptism gets their loved ones into heaven regardless of whether it does or not.
As I understand it, baptism is just symbolic anyway. Washing away the "sins." Like a helpless baby (who can't consent to this ritual) has any sins.
The Catholic Church at least certainly does not consider baptism symbolic. Original sin is quite serious in the Catholic Church.
If it is not symbolic, what are the implications of not being baptized?
For the Catholic Church, the implication is not going to heaven.
How is this not obvious? This is the core tenet of Catholicism, at least.
Other people who say they are Catholic on this thread have said differently.
Are you saying that Catholicism maintains that the only people in heaven are those who have been baptized?
Yes. If that is not true, then what is the significance of being saved? What is the purpose of telling anyone to accept Jesus? What is the relevance of salvation? Why should I want to be saved?
No, you need to brush up on your own religion. That is not the Catholic position at all.
I’m not Catholic. But is it not true that the Catholic Church teaches that, in order to get into heaven, you must be baptized and accept Jesus?
No, that is not a full and true description of the Catholic view. A simple google search will lead you to many discussion about it.
Really? The Pope has come out and said now that you don't need to accept Jesus to get into heaven? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I’m very confused. PP, can you explain? My mom is Catholic—went to 12 years of Catholic diocese school—and always said that the Church’s view is that you have to accept Jesus to go to heaven. Part of that is getting baptized. That’s not her personal view (she didn’t raise us Catholic, for one), but she’s always said that’s a core teaching of the Church.
DP, but obviously Pope Francis spoke after you or your mom went to school. Theological positions change. I’m not Catholic, fwiw. But if the pope says something, my understanding is that what he says rules, not what you or your mom were taught decades ago.
So when did the Pope say you don’t have to accept Jesus to go to heaven? You keep telling us all that we’re wrong, but provide no evidence.
I posted this earlier. It was written by a Catholic Bishop:
The Catholic Church absolutely does NOT say that anyone at all is surely in Hell.
“Think of God’s life as a party to which everyone is invited, and think of Hell as the sullen corner into which someone who resolutely refuses to join the fun has sadly slunk. What this image helps us to understand is that language which suggests that God “sends” people to Hell is misleading. As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside…
… God is love and that human beings are free. The divine love, freely rejected, results in suffering. And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down the even the most recalcitrant sinner.”
? That's completely non-response. The question is whether the position of the Catholic church is (or is not) that a person must believe in Jesus to get into heaven.
In Catholicism, it's a given that you have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, but there's a lot more to Catholicism than that. You have to have.received the sacraments, have a clean soul, follow the tenets of the church, etc., etc.
"Accepting Jesus as your savior" and "Taking Jesus into your heart" are evangelical Protestant things, not Catholic things. Catholicism is much more complex and sophisticated than that.
Wait, it’s not consistent with Catholicism to say “I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior”?
Right. Those are things that mean that there was some sort of event that happened in the past that guaranteed your salvation, and it’s over. In Catholicism, you are working toward a salvation that won’t be completed until after death.
Right. Also Confirmation, at the age of 14 or so, "confirms" your commitment to Jesus at a time people are considered old enough to understand and thus consciously do it themselves. Stilll , they need to observe the tenets of the Catholic Church throughout their lives to ensure their ultimate arrival in heaven for eternity.
Or just get in confession and manage to do their penance before death. Either way
Correct, but then you're taking a chance that you can time your death.
I've heard people say that they were afraid of being hit by a car before they got to confession and communion to be absolved of their mortal sins.
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