Ellen Page announced new identity as Elliott Page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ellen/Elliott is the actress who starred in Juno, The Umbrella Academy and Inception.

He looked so sad in this picture. Uncomfortable with sad eyes. Obviously in retrospect we can see what was going on. Hopefully there is joy and happiness in his current and future life.

Agree. More recent pictures have been joyful.

I would also dislike being dolled up like that. Does that make me trans?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ellen/Elliott is the actress who starred in Juno, The Umbrella Academy and Inception.

He looked so sad in this picture. Uncomfortable with sad eyes. Obviously in retrospect we can see what was going on. Hopefully there is joy and happiness in his current and future life.

Agree. More recent pictures have been joyful.

I would also dislike being dolled up like that. Does that make me trans?

That’s an answer for yourself. Not anyone else. It gets better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get what it means to identify female or male (if someone isn't talking about body parts)? Are there aspects to life that are inherently female or inherently male aside from biology?

Of course there are. They have been freaking legally enshrined around the globe in different ways since the dawn of time, even.

Like what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get what it means to identify female or male (if someone isn't talking about body parts)? Are there aspects to life that are inherently female or inherently male aside from biology?

Of course there are. They have been freaking legally enshrined around the globe in different ways since the dawn of time, even.

Like what?

The ability to multitask

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ellen/Elliott is the actress who starred in Juno, The Umbrella Academy and Inception.

He looked so sad in this picture. Uncomfortable with sad eyes. Obviously in retrospect we can see what was going on. Hopefully there is joy and happiness in his current and future life.

Agree. More recent pictures have been joyful.

I would also dislike being dolled up like that. Does that make me trans?

It would mean you don’t conform to social norms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I truly don’t understand why the leap to changing pronouns is so important. There always used to be women who dressed and presented masculine. In the past it was frowned upon for men to dress in an effeminate way, and I think it’s a good thing that that perception has improved over time. But I don’t see why the big announcement about pronouns.

If you prefer to be referred to as she, would it bother you if people kept calling you he, or vice versa?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get what it means to identify female or male (if someone isn't talking about body parts)? Are there aspects to life that are inherently female or inherently male aside from biology?

Of course there are. They have been freaking legally enshrined around the globe in different ways since the dawn of time, even.

Like what?

The ability to multitask

Lol what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly don’t understand why the leap to changing pronouns is so important. There always used to be women who dressed and presented masculine. In the past it was frowned upon for men to dress in an effeminate way, and I think it’s a good thing that that perception has improved over time. But I don’t see why the big announcement about pronouns.

If you prefer to be referred to as she, would it bother you if people kept calling you he, or vice versa?

If you truly believe in equality across all people, why should it matter? Should there even be he/she?

Upthread someone brought up the changing thoughts biologists have about sex. (Although, I would add that insulting people for not being familiar with current research in this area is sh*tty and smug. I guarantee I can find plenty of areas of modern research that PP knows nothing about and they would not appreciate being denigrated for it.) If sex is fluid, what does this mean on so many levels? So much emphasis on including women in health in research? If sex is so fluid and influenced by so many factors, than is there really male and female? Does it matter on any level, for health or anything else? Is it really fluid or is our understanding of what we perceive as variation really just a reflection of inadequate study? What is the true percentage of variation? Who knows?

But if you are going to argue that sex is fluid and gender is fluid, then why even have someone designate as male or female? And who gets to decide what those things mean? Why get hung up on a pronoun? Why would you be insulted by being identified by one or the other?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly don’t understand why the leap to changing pronouns is so important. There always used to be women who dressed and presented masculine. In the past it was frowned upon for men to dress in an effeminate way, and I think it’s a good thing that that perception has improved over time. But I don’t see why the big announcement about pronouns.

If you prefer to be referred to as she, would it bother you if people kept calling you he, or vice versa?

Seriously most women get pissed if they are called ma’am instead of miss... they would definitely be all pissed if they were called he/sir.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly don’t understand why the leap to changing pronouns is so important. There always used to be women who dressed and presented masculine. In the past it was frowned upon for men to dress in an effeminate way, and I think it’s a good thing that that perception has improved over time. But I don’t see why the big announcement about pronouns.

If you prefer to be referred to as she, would it bother you if people kept calling you he, or vice versa?

If you truly believe in equality across all people, why should it matter? Should there even be he/she?

Upthread someone brought up the changing thoughts biologists have about sex. (Although, I would add that insulting people for not being familiar with current research in this area is sh*tty and smug. I guarantee I can find plenty of areas of modern research that PP knows nothing about and they would not appreciate being denigrated for it.) If sex is fluid, what does this mean on so many levels? So much emphasis on including women in health in research? If sex is so fluid and influenced by so many factors, than is there really male and female? Does it matter on any level, for health or anything else? Is it really fluid or is our understanding of what we perceive as variation really just a reflection of inadequate study? What is the true percentage of variation? Who knows?

But if you are going to argue that sex is fluid and gender is fluid, then why even have someone designate as male or female? And who gets to decide what those things mean? Why get hung up on a pronoun? Why would you be insulted by being identified by one or the other?

Let me preface this by saying that I’m not an academic or a particularly smart person who claims to have any of the answers, I just think about this topic a lot and find it super complex and interesting.

I pretty much agree with what you’re saying. That’s what I meant upthread when I said that gender is a social construct and isn’t “real.” But it creates real material effects on the world. One of those effects is that I am most comfortable being referred to as “she” and calling myself a woman, performing feminity, wearing dresses, etc. So who am I to begrudge someone else participating in the construct in similar or overlapping ways that I do just because their chromosomes are different than mine?

On the other hand, I feel defensive of my womanhood because the social construct of gender as well as some biological realities of being female have given women the short end of the stick since the dawn of time. So I have complicated feelings about people, especially adults, who have been socialized as male then deciding to participate and present in the world as a woman. Different but also complicated feelings about the opposite situation. It’s all really complicated and there’s no one good answer.

[Anonymous]

The questions and ideas presented here are not any I was especially curious about -- these are people and I will address them in whatever way they prefer and treat them respectfully as long as they do the same to me and for me that's where it began and ended -- but I have learned much today so I appreciate those who took the time to offer explanations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly. As for “assigned at birth,” this makes it sound like doctors arbitrarily pick someone’s gender. No, they don’t assign a “gender” at all. They observe the newborn’s biological sex and record it. The push for this new language denies science & facts. We can be respectful of all types of people without doing that.

Regarding the “deadname” article— that stance is ridiculous. Continuing to call someone by a name they don’t prefer is rude. But mentioning what someone used to be called for informational purposes should be a non-issue. People change their names for all sorts of reasons— marriage, divorce, adoption, Prince, etc. I’ve never heard any of these other groups get upset about the mere mention of their former name.

You're being deliberately disingenuous. You say they don't assign a "gender" but rather "observe a newborn's biological sex and record it." Why didn't you use the word gender in the second sentence as well? You know that gender and sex are not the same thing as demonstrated in your own language choices.

And for your commentary on the deadname article, again, you're being dismissive just to be smug. No one is getting upset "about the mere mention of their former name." It's not simply about "mentioning what someone used to be called for informational purposes." It's about continuing to use a former name as a way to not recognize and diminish the significance of the person's transition and new name.

You understand all the "new language" as you call it but because you have problems with the people using it you cloak your bigotry in a sanctimonious criticism of the nuances of the language.

No, that article stated that there is NEVER a reason for a news agency to publish a trans person’s former name— at all. Not even once. Did you read the article?
And no one is “assigning” gender because it is a social construct. There is no official document about someone’s gender, at birth or otherwise. The birth certificate states biological sex. So do forms asking for “male” or “female.” They are asking about biological sex. Gender is different, right?

Here’s the quote:
“ “Reminder: there is NEVER a reason to publish someone’s deadname,” the Transgender Journalist Association said in a statement on Twitter”

Which is absurd. Using Page as an example, how would he ever refer to his entire prior life as Ellen? Are his parents simply instructed to forget Ellen ever existed? I have nothing against the trans community, but this sort of nonsense is exactly why they receive pushback and questions. It’s as if the previous person is to be erased. “Deadname” says it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have many waves ions about the broader issue of what it means when people born and assigned the female gender at birth this I they can no longer identify as a woman because they don’t present as femme. Or vice versa. A dude can’t wear a dress. I thought the whole point of gender as a social construct was that we could be free to be you and me as we see fit. For example, where are all the butch lesbians? In my youth I hung with many. Now it seems the young ones who would’ve been “butch” in the 90s are just claiming FTM.
I guess overall to me it seems that frequently it actually pigeonholes gender stereotypes more when people feel that because they don’t represent a mainstream expression of gender they must somehow be transgender. I’m not trying to be trans exclusionary. I don’t actually GAF what anyone wants to identify as, I’ll call you what you want, but I just can’t get past the irony of how much of this actually perpetuates harmful gender stereotypes while trying to be free of them.

THIS!!! You articulated this so well!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the people who push back on all the trans coming out articles, I have to believe that for the vast majority of them, they would not give 2 farts about their neighbor, coworker, etc being a trans person. They wouldn't stay up wondering all these "questions" and would treat them with respect, etc.....but for some reason they tend to get up in arms whenever trans people get attention for being trans. That seems to be a big part of what bothers them. And I can't for the life of me figure out why except maybe they resent that they don't get attention for living their lives, so what makes trans people/gay people/ whatever so special?

It bears repeating that maybe instead of wondering where your attention/medal/parade/movement is, be happy that you have never been in a position where you needed one.

Who is up in arms? Could you be projecting?

Trust me, most of us are living our lives uninterested in participating in the attention seeking, suffering, or victimization Olympics that are all the rage. We are just trying to make sense of this to understand what it means to transition to make sure we don't offend anyone.

Bingo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's an impressive level of wilful, dogmatic denial about biology on here. It's sad. Especially as I thought the Democrats were supposed to be the party of science. This is the modern equivalent of the religious right and their rejection of evolution and insistence on creative or intelligent design as scientifically real. Only this time it's coming from the progressive left.

Very interesting perspective. I agree. It’s almost as if... “science matters - except when it’s not convenient.”