Why Some People Convert to Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:2. THE GENDER DETERMINATION HADITH

According to embryology, the crucial event that determines whether the embryo will develop into a male or female occurs in the second half of the sixth week of gestation.

See for example: How Is Sex Determined? www.pbs.org

The Prophet Muhammad MHMD - upon him and his House blessings and peace - disclosed the exact same timeframe fourteen centuries ago.

Imam Muslim narrates from Hudhayfa that the Prophet MHMD said:

The sperm-and-ovum drop falls into the uterus [and remains] for forty nights, after which the angel in charge of fashioning it descends upon it and says, "Lord! Male or female?" Then Allah makes it male or female.

Another version from Hudhayfa in al-Bukhari and Muslim states:

The angel is sent to the sperm-and-ovum drop after it has settled in the uterus for FORTY OR FORTY-FIVE NIGHTS and says, "Lord! Is it to be wretched or happy?" Then this is inscribed. Then he says, "Lord! Is it to be male or female?" Then this is inscribed, together with its deeds, its progeny, its term of life, and its sustenance. Then the records are folded up and nothing more is added nor subtracted.



Having just gone through IVF and PGD, which told me the sex of the fetus after FIVE FREAKING DAYS, I couldn't stop laughing at that one.

Thats hilarious….BUT -- Is it possible that the Angel did not know but that God knew all along, even before the embryo became a 5 day old blastocyst?

If you are referring to the fact that the embryo's gender is already set before it becomes even a five-day blast, then you are correct.

But the "Quran predicted embryology" crowd seems to think that the 45-day cut-off is significant, and the truth is that there is no significance in this stage whatsoever.

What God knows is not something we can ascertain by scientific means.

[Anonymous]

But there's more in Keith Moore's article. He thought the Quran accurately identified the stage from 7 - 24 days also. He goes on to say:

"Another verse in the Koran (figure 4) refers to the early stages of human embryonic development.These verses from the Koran (23:13-14 )states that God made you from a drop and then changed the drop into a leech-like structure which soon changed into a chewed-like substance that took the shape of bones and was clothed with flesh."

He is referring to these verses from Quran Sura 23 verse 13-14.

He writes, "These verses from the Koran (23:13-14) states that God made you from a drop and then changed the drop into a leech-like structure which soon changed into a chewed-like substance that took the shape of bones and was clothed with flesh."

The word "alaqah" in the verse refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech

Moore includes in his article pictures of a leech and what the fetus looks like at the stage described. They are very similar.

Refer to his entire article to see the figures and pictures he uses: http://islampapers.com/2014/02/01/highlights-of-human-embryology-in-the-koran-and-hadith/

He then concludes: "Observe how much the embryo of 24 days (figures 5) looks like a leech (Arabic, alaca, a thing which clings) and that it later appears like a chewed substance (Arabic, mudga, chewed flesh) after most of the somites form during the fourth week (figure 6)."

[Anonymous]

Keith Moore then goes on to say the Quran also identified another important aspect about embryology, the mixing of sperm and ovum. He states," This verse from the Koran (Quran Sura76:2) states that a human being is created from a mixed drop."

He goes on to say, "A popular idea in the 17th century among scientists was that the sperm contained a miniature human being that simply enlarged inside the sperm. Another equally strong idea was that the ovum contained a miniature human being that was stimulated to growth by the semen. It was not until the 18th century that Spallanzani showed experimentally that both male and female sex products were necessary for the initiation of development. From his experiments, including artificial insemination in dogs, he concluded that the sperm was the fertilizing agent. It is difficult not to interpret the mixed drop mentioned in the Koran in the 7th century as a reference to the mingling of the male and female sex cells described eleven centuries later."

So how could the Quran have known this in the 7th century??

[Anonymous]

This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In his article, Keith Moore writes: "It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as: (a) the mother’s abdominal wall (figure 3); (b) the wall of the uterus; and (c) the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion. These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

So he seemed to think the Quran, if not the hadith, was on point at least in knowing the three stages of fetal development.

The fact that the baby was surrounded by three veils of darkness, i.e. three layers, can be easily ascertained by unassisted observation, which has been practiced in Rome and by Cleopatra way before Islam, where C-section was pioneered, and where Cleopatra sometimes cut up pregnant women for fun. Arabs were familiar with Greek physician writing so there was nothing revolutionary in what is written in this verse.

Can you provide evidence of Greek physician writing or C sections in Rome before the 7th century, please?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In his article, Keith Moore writes: "It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as: (a) the mother’s abdominal wall (figure 3); (b) the wall of the uterus; and (c) the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion. These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

So he seemed to think the Quran, if not the hadith, was on point at least in knowing the three stages of fetal development.

The fact that the baby was surrounded by three veils of darkness, i.e. three layers, can be easily ascertained by unassisted observation, which has been practiced in Rome and by Cleopatra way before Islam, where C-section was pioneered, and where Cleopatra sometimes cut up pregnant women for fun. Arabs were familiar with Greek physician writing so there was nothing revolutionary in what is written in this verse.

Can you provide evidence of Greek physician writing or C sections in Rome before the 7th century, please?

While we wait for your proof, I found this. It's an article titled, "A history of mammalian embryological research" from The International Journal of Developmental Biology (Impact Factor: 2.61). 02/2001; 45(3):457-67. Here the abstract says the stages of embryonic development was not understood until 1641 at the earliest.

ABSTRACT Although Reinier DE GRAAF (1641-1673) can be considered the founder of modern reproductive biology, scientific knowledge of mammalian development did not progress significantly until the XlXth century. Determining contributions to this progress were the discovery of the ovum by Karl von BAER (1792-1876), his meticulous observations of the stages of embryogenesis, and, half a century later, the remarkable descriptions made by Edouard VAN BENEDEN (1845-1910) of egg development in rabbits and bats. Yet mammalian embryology remained a purely descriptive discipline until the second half of the XXth century…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

Can we see Galen's paper then please?

[Anonymous]

The thing is, Quran is anything but clear about "how humans are made." Let's take a look.

11:61 It is He Who hath produced you from the earth
15:26,28,33 We created man from sounding clay
17:61 ... Thou didst create from clay
32:7 He began the creation of man from clay
19:67 We created him before out of nothing
23:12 We created man from a product of wet earth (loam) (Pickthall)
23:12 Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay)
38:71 I am about to create a mortal out of mire
25:54 It is He Who has created man from water (see also 21:30, 24:45)
3:59 He created (Jesus) out of dust
30:20 He created you from dust
35:11 Allah did create you from dust ....
30:19 It is He who brings out the living from the dead
39:6 He created you from a single Person (see also 4:1)
16:4 He created man from a drop of fluid (Pickthall)
16:4 He has created man from a sperm-drop
32:8 He made his seed from a quintessence of despised fluid
35:11 ... then from a little fluid (Pickthall)
53:46 (he created) from a drop of seed when it is poured forth (Pickthall)
53:46 From a sperm-drop when lodged (in its place)
56:58 Have ye seen that which ye emit (Pickthall)
56:58 Do you then see? The (human Seed) that ye emit
75:37 Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth (Pickthall)
75:37 Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
76:2 We create man from a drop of thickened fluid (Pickthall)
76:2 We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm
77:20 Did We not create you from a worthless water (semen, etc.)? (Al-Hilali & Khan)
80:19 From a sperm-drop He hath created him
86:6-7 He is created from a drop emitted - proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.

As you can see, mingled sperm is but one contender in the pool of "what humans are made of." And it doesn't really say what it is mingled WITH, certainly not an ovum. And the idea that humans were made from a mix of male and female reproductive fluids came as early as Hippocrates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In his article, Keith Moore writes: "It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as: (a) the mother’s abdominal wall (figure 3); (b) the wall of the uterus; and (c) the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion. These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

So he seemed to think the Quran, if not the hadith, was on point at least in knowing the three stages of fetal development.

The fact that the baby was surrounded by three veils of darkness, i.e. three layers, can be easily ascertained by unassisted observation, which has been practiced in Rome and by Cleopatra way before Islam, where C-section was pioneered, and where Cleopatra sometimes cut up pregnant women for fun. Arabs were familiar with Greek physician writing so there was nothing revolutionary in what is written in this verse.

Can you provide evidence of Greek physician writing or C sections in Rome before the 7th century, please?

here you go...
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part1.html
Cesarean section has been part of human culture since ancient times and there are tales in both Western and non-Western cultures of this procedure resulting in live mothers and offspring. According to Greek mythology Apollo removed Asclepius, founder of the famous cult of religious medicine, from his mother's abdomen. Numerous references to cesarean section appear in ancient Hindu, Egyptian, Grecian, Roman, and other European folklore. Ancient Chinese etchings depict the procedure on apparently living women. The Mischnagoth and Talmud prohibited primogeniture when twins were born by cesarean section and waived the purification rituals for women delivered by surgery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

Can we see Galen's paper then please?

Here is a quote, for a full paper go to medical library:

But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails . At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood, and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts . You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed ...

... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow [19].

Corpus Medicorum Graecorum: Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) (Greek text with English trans. Phillip de Lacy, Akademic Verlag, 1992) section I:9:1-10 pp. 92-95, 101

[Anonymous]

And here is the Talmudic description of embryonic development:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0G1GwpbHRRcC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=talmud+on+stages+of+embryo+development&source=bl&ots=q42xifTPZF&sig=TR8fbD6nTwaOSpJWLaZfCRjvxEg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LOYUVPe7CfeBsQT2oYHQCg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=talmud%20on%20stages%20of%20embryo%20development&f=false

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

Here is what Galen said about the stages of fetal development (which he erroneously assumes is FOUR, not three):

"But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails. At this time, Hippocrates too, the all marvellous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood, and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts. You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form “twigs”, as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches.

The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; "

So Galen was confused about the stages of fetal development. But the Quran spoke of the correct three stages of fetal development in this verse 39:6:

"He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He makes you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Centre)?"

Keith Moore then concludes: "I was amazed at the scientific accuracy of these statements which were made in the 7th century AD. I have selected verses and sayings for which I shall provide personal interpretations based on my knowledge of embryological history and of the modern science of embryology.The realization that the embryo develops in stages in the uterus (figure 1) was not discussed or illustrated until the 15th century AD., although Galen had mentioned the placenta and fetal membranes in his book On the Formation of the Foetus written in the 2nd century AD and must have known about the uterus.

Thus, Moore credits Galen for some discoveries, but clearly states Galen neither wrote nor discussed/illustrated anything other than the placenta and fetal membranes in his classic work, "Formation of the Foetus."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In his article, Keith Moore writes: "It is reasonable to interpret the three veils of darkness mentioned in the Koran as: (a) the mother’s abdominal wall (figure 3); (b) the wall of the uterus; and (c) the amniochorionic membrane composed of the fused amnion and chorion. These three anatomical layers protect the embryo from external injury."

So he seemed to think the Quran, if not the hadith, was on point at least in knowing the three stages of fetal development.

The fact that the baby was surrounded by three veils of darkness, i.e. three layers, can be easily ascertained by unassisted observation, which has been practiced in Rome and by Cleopatra way before Islam, where C-section was pioneered, and where Cleopatra sometimes cut up pregnant women for fun. Arabs were familiar with Greek physician writing so there was nothing revolutionary in what is written in this verse.

Can you provide evidence of Greek physician writing or C sections in Rome before the 7th century, please?

here you go...
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/part1.html
Cesarean section has been part of human culture since ancient times and there are tales in both Western and non-Western cultures of this procedure resulting in live mothers and offspring. According to Greek mythology Apollo removed Asclepius, founder of the famous cult of religious medicine, from his mother's abdomen. Numerous references to cesarean section appear in ancient Hindu, Egyptian, Grecian, Roman, and other European folklore. Ancient Chinese etchings depict the procedure on apparently living women. The Mischnagoth and Talmud prohibited primogeniture when twins were born by cesarean section and waived the purification rituals for women delivered by surgery.

But the only reason to discuss Cesarean section would be to prove that people knew about fetal development before the Quran did. There's no mention that Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.. knew about the stages of fetal development or anything else about fetal development. It only states c-sections were used to save the child when it was determined the mother was dying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But the only reason to discuss Cesarean section would be to prove that people knew about fetal development before the Quran did. There's no mention that Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.. knew about the stages of fetal development or anything else about fetal development. It only states c-sections were used to save the child when it was determined the mother was dying.

No, in the context you brought up it is important to note C-sections existed because by cutting up the stomach of a pregnant woman, it would be noticed that the fetus is wrapped in several protective layers, which the Quran mentioned. It's not about fetal development.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This would only be revolutionary if it hasn't been explored before. But it just so happens that both Persian and Greek physicians, most notably Galen, have described much of the same in much of the same terms. The companions of Muhammad included a doctor who traveled to Yemen and Persia and went to medical school there.

Might it be possible that what Dr Moore is a scientific revelation is actually a regurgitation of what has already been known to medical establishment at that point?

Here is what Galen said about the stages of fetal development (which he erroneously assumes is FOUR, not three):

"But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails. At this time, Hippocrates too, the all marvellous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood, and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts. You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form “twigs”, as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches.

The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; "

So Galen was confused about the stages of fetal development. But the Quran spoke of the correct three stages of fetal development in this verse 39:6:

"He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and he sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He makes you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Centre)?"

Keith Moore then concludes: "I was amazed at the scientific accuracy of these statements which were made in the 7th century AD. I have selected verses and sayings for which I shall provide personal interpretations based on my knowledge of embryological history and of the modern science of embryology.The realization that the embryo develops in stages in the uterus (figure 1) was not discussed or illustrated until the 15th century AD., although Galen had mentioned the placenta and fetal membranes in his book On the Formation of the Foetus written in the 2nd century AD and must have known about the uterus.

Thus, Moore credits Galen for some discoveries, but clearly states Galen neither wrote nor discussed/illustrated anything other than the placenta and fetal membranes in his classic work, "Formation of the Foetus."

The chapter you quoted doesn't mention three stages of embryonic development. It says children are made in the wombs of mothers (blindingly obvious) in stages (well established at that point) in three veils of darkness (could mean anything, and if it means uterine wall and membrane, could have been observed through C sections).

Besides, the embryo doesn't really have set stages of development that can be easily separated from each other. The development is completely gradual.

Finally, it's scientifically dishonest to describe what Galen wrote through the lens of what Moore wrote about it. To see what Galen wrote, you have to look at what Galen wrote, not at what Moore said he wrote.