Do you think feminism has been a net positive or net negative for relationships?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

You know the old generations of women you're referring to are still alive, right? Clearly, you don't talk to your female relatives (probably because they might say something inconvenient for your false narrative about the good old days). Those of us who talk to our grandmothers, grand aunts, and elderly women in our communities have heard all the horrible stories. Even among those who had decent husbands, not a single one would have married when she did and most would not have married whom they did if they had the choices we do today. There are so many heartbreaking stories of being forced to quit jobs at which they were succeeding, being fired when of "marriageable age," being denied an equal education, being impregnated against their will (rape!), and otherwise being forced into financial dependence and how that shaped their entire lives. Ferk you and your lies. We're showing you the middle fingers our grandmothers wish they could have waved.

The big lie is all that paid work didn't make women happier or less stressed and anxious.

That's because they are still doing the lion's share of the unpaid work. Women thought men would step up at home when women stepped up as wage earners. Instead, women are now expected to be primary parents, maintain the home, AND earn an income.

Exactly. We were sold a bill of goods that women can have it all. That's the big lie. The bonds that used to hold a marriage together are flimsy. Everyone can just go off and make their own money and the kids can just shuttle back and forth between the homes and hopefully turn out ok. There's not much incentive to get married or stay married so why bother?

We're not going back to the kitchen. Ever. So, you men can catch up and stop being spoiled losers or you can own the society that results from your failures.

People who disagree with you aren't men. We're women with eyes wide open. We were told we could have it all and what a farce that was.

If that's the case, then you are a stupid creature unworthy of the sacrifices our foremothers made. If things were as you think they should be, you wouldn't have the education to use a computer or smartphone to type your screeds, if your husband even allowed you to own them. Feminism is why your silly behind has the bandwidth to stare at this screen right now instead of being pregnant with your 6th child while in the middle of breastfeeding your newborn 5th child as your other four kids all under 7 years old scream around you.

DP: You really need therapy for this level of anger. You should understand that other people can be happy in ways that would not make you happy.

NP. Ah, the old "she's crazy" argument. I will say one thing about the 1950's, they want their stereotypes back.

NP, btw. Do you get how many of us there are? That women laying claim to equal rights is just the way it is now? It's so weird to watch men kick and scream about this. It's like watching them argue with gravity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

You know the old generations of women you're referring to are still alive, right? Clearly, you don't talk to your female relatives (probably because they might say something inconvenient for your false narrative about the good old days). Those of us who talk to our grandmothers, grand aunts, and elderly women in our communities have heard all the horrible stories. Even among those who had decent husbands, not a single one would have married when she did and most would not have married whom they did if they had the choices we do today. There are so many heartbreaking stories of being forced to quit jobs at which they were succeeding, being fired when of "marriageable age," being denied an equal education, being impregnated against their will (rape!), and otherwise being forced into financial dependence and how that shaped their entire lives. Ferk you and your lies. We're showing you the middle fingers our grandmothers wish they could have waved.

The big lie is all that paid work didn't make women happier or less stressed and anxious.

This is a typically stupid response. Life is stressful and anxiety inducing. Being an adult and carrying adult responsibilities is hard. It's disgusting and sociopathic to suggest that means things were better when women were living in fear in our own homes and being beaten, robbed of inheritances and savings, raped, impregnated repeatedly to the point of permanent physical disabilities, forcibly committed to asylums so their husbands could marry someone else etc. People like you don't think women's lives have any value beyond how we can be used by men. Drop dead.

Sorry facts bother you. Women like you haven't improved the lives of other women.

Sorry to burst your bubble but my entire morning was improved by PP putting you in your place. I'm literally sitting here in my office, in the business I started from scratch, enjoying you getting owned by PP. By all means keep going, I'm enjoying this entire discourse.

+1 million. I'm about to throw in the towel on PP's behalf. The feminist poster is wiping the floor with her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

You know the old generations of women you're referring to are still alive, right? Clearly, you don't talk to your female relatives (probably because they might say something inconvenient for your false narrative about the good old days). Those of us who talk to our grandmothers, grand aunts, and elderly women in our communities have heard all the horrible stories. Even among those who had decent husbands, not a single one would have married when she did and most would not have married whom they did if they had the choices we do today. There are so many heartbreaking stories of being forced to quit jobs at which they were succeeding, being fired when of "marriageable age," being denied an equal education, being impregnated against their will (rape!), and otherwise being forced into financial dependence and how that shaped their entire lives. Ferk you and your lies. We're showing you the middle fingers our grandmothers wish they could have waved.

The big lie is all that paid work didn't make women happier or less stressed and anxious.

This is a typically stupid response. Life is stressful and anxiety inducing. Being an adult and carrying adult responsibilities is hard. It's disgusting and sociopathic to suggest that means things were better when women were living in fear in our own homes and being beaten, robbed of inheritances and savings, raped, impregnated repeatedly to the point of permanent physical disabilities, forcibly committed to asylums so their husbands could marry someone else etc. People like you don't think women's lives have any value beyond how we can be used by men. Drop dead.

DP: Sounds like you have a lot of family trauma to process. I assure you that every woman in the world did not experience what you describe. There are actual happy families out there and loving relationships too.

Ah, yes, it's just my family. All other women back then were deeply happy with their servile positions... which is why, across the world, they created movements to end the old system and wrest equality for themselves, even going so far as to perpetrate bombings in England in order to get the right to vote.

The women of the silent and Boomer generations were the feminists who created the world we have today, but they were definitely incredibly happy with exactly how things were.

Makes sense!

+1000 Lol @ people pretend pretending that 20 something year-old women invented feminism. Your nanas did to get out from under your grandpas!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

You know the old generations of women you're referring to are still alive, right? Clearly, you don't talk to your female relatives (probably because they might say something inconvenient for your false narrative about the good old days). Those of us who talk to our grandmothers, grand aunts, and elderly women in our communities have heard all the horrible stories. Even among those who had decent husbands, not a single one would have married when she did and most would not have married whom they did if they had the choices we do today. There are so many heartbreaking stories of being forced to quit jobs at which they were succeeding, being fired when of "marriageable age," being denied an equal education, being impregnated against their will (rape!), and otherwise being forced into financial dependence and how that shaped their entire lives. Ferk you and your lies. We're showing you the middle fingers our grandmothers wish they could have waved.

The big lie is all that paid work didn't make women happier or less stressed and anxious.

That's because they are still doing the lion's share of the unpaid work. Women thought men would step up at home when women stepped up as wage earners. Instead, women are now expected to be primary parents, maintain the home, AND earn an income.

DP

That’s because ‘women’ are still making stupid choices. Why the F would they marry an idiot who doesn’t want an equal. They have the ability to be more choosy and yet they marry stupid men who don’t step up. It’s time we demand more from men and raise our sons to be better.

I did just this and cannot fathom some of the choices and lives my friends chose. The power balance has shifted, yet women are still making dumb choices as if it didn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Which aspect of feminism are you suggesting it’s in my daughter’s best interest to roll back? The laws that keep her from being raped by her future spouse? The legal right to leave her marriage? The right to have medical treatment without her husband’s permission? Truly what am I supposed to be worrying about for her?

I don't know about your daughter but I'm worried for my daughter's future. I don't think the dating pool full of eligible men is going to be vast because all the young men will have shaped up due to feminism. She will be lucky to find someone and the odds are more likely she will stay single. I guess she could have kids but being a single working mom is no picnic and nothing one should aspire to.

None of that has anything to do with feminism. I would ENDLESSLY prefer my daughter be single (with or without kids) than married to someone who doesn’t think she is his equal. If she wants kids without the husband, the money is there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

You know the old generations of women you're referring to are still alive, right? Clearly, you don't talk to your female relatives (probably because they might say something inconvenient for your false narrative about the good old days). Those of us who talk to our grandmothers, grand aunts, and elderly women in our communities have heard all the horrible stories. Even among those who had decent husbands, not a single one would have married when she did and most would not have married whom they did if they had the choices we do today. There are so many heartbreaking stories of being forced to quit jobs at which they were succeeding, being fired when of "marriageable age," being denied an equal education, being impregnated against their will (rape!), and otherwise being forced into financial dependence and how that shaped their entire lives. Ferk you and your lies. We're showing you the middle fingers our grandmothers wish they could have waved.

The big lie is all that paid work didn't make women happier or less stressed and anxious.

That's because they are still doing the lion's share of the unpaid work. Women thought men would step up at home when women stepped up as wage earners. Instead, women are now expected to be primary parents, maintain the home, AND earn an income.

DP

That’s because ‘women’ are still making stupid choices. Why the F would they marry an idiot who doesn’t want an equal. They have the ability to be more choosy and yet they marry stupid men who don’t step up. It’s time we demand more from men and raise our sons to be better.

I did just this and cannot fathom some of the choices and lives my friends chose. The power balance has shifted, yet women are still making dumb choices as if it didn’t.

Imagine a world in which men lie about their willingness to do their share and then slow roll their selfishness after marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

Has everyone forgotten "Mommy's Little Helper" of the 1950s?

Self-reported happiness measures are so garbled by other factors that the data is nearly completely useless. The way questions are worded, what order questions are in, the role of social norms, the fact that "happiness" is completely subjective, all mess with the data.

For example, there was tremendous social pressure in earlier generations to NOT report any unhappiness or mental health issues. It's only become acceptable in the last 20 years to admit you have depression or anxiety, and even still, there's stigma around it. Previously, women were punished for admitting any mental health struggles or unhappiness. I lived with my grandmother in her old age, and despite being the perfect housewife in the 1950s, once I lived with her I could see the MASSIVE amounts of anxiety she had lived with her entire life. But she would never admit to it because that would be "wrong".

There are also SO many other factors at play. Social media/screens, comparison, lack of jobs/the economy, politics, pressure from work/parents/life, lack of social support and friendships, all affect happiness and stress levels.

Some for self-reported studies on hours worked at home and unpaid labor. Right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don’t believe women deserve equal rights you don’t deserve a date, kiss or sex. Boy bye.

Dude, I'm a woman. Why is that so hard to believe? But I'm not seeing my friends reap the benefits of all this egalitarian equal rights. Women seem less happy and more stressed than ever before having to do it all. Just look at the relationships page here to see how happy women are. Girl, bye.

- you’re not a woman
- that wasn’t even a reply to you. If the shoe fits I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

NP. Every generation of women has been less happy than their mothers since the 70s. The women people keep describing as hostages were, statistically, happier than their grandchildren with the free choice. That obviously doesn't mean that feminism is bad or that we should undo it (which we can't), but it's also something that I don't think people in this conversation are really acknowledging. As someone with a daughter, I'm concerned about that, even as I think feminism has been, on balance a good thing.

You know the old generations of women you're referring to are still alive, right? Clearly, you don't talk to your female relatives (probably because they might say something inconvenient for your false narrative about the good old days). Those of us who talk to our grandmothers, grand aunts, and elderly women in our communities have heard all the horrible stories. Even among those who had decent husbands, not a single one would have married when she did and most would not have married whom they did if they had the choices we do today. There are so many heartbreaking stories of being forced to quit jobs at which they were succeeding, being fired when of "marriageable age," being denied an equal education, being impregnated against their will (rape!), and otherwise being forced into financial dependence and how that shaped their entire lives. Ferk you and your lies. We're showing you the middle fingers our grandmothers wish they could have waved.

The big lie is all that paid work didn't make women happier or less stressed and anxious.

This is a typically stupid response. Life is stressful and anxiety inducing. Being an adult and carrying adult responsibilities is hard. It's disgusting and sociopathic to suggest that means things were better when women were living in fear in our own homes and being beaten, robbed of inheritances and savings, raped, impregnated repeatedly to the point of permanent physical disabilities, forcibly committed to asylums so their husbands could marry someone else etc. People like you don't think women's lives have any value beyond how we can be used by men. Drop dead.

DP: Sounds like you have a lot of family trauma to process. I assure you that every woman in the world did not experience what you describe. There are actual happy families out there and loving relationships too.

Ah, yes, it's just my family. All other women back then were deeply happy with their servile positions... which is why, across the world, they created movements to end the old system and wrest equality for themselves, even going so far as to perpetrate bombings in England in order to get the right to vote.

The women of the silent and Boomer generations were the feminists who created the world we have today, but they were definitely incredibly happy with exactly how things were.

Makes sense!

+1000 Lol @ people pretend pretending that 20 something year-old women invented feminism. Your nanas did to get out from under your grandpas!

FWIW my own great grandad helped get the 19th Amendment passed (he was in Congress at the time). But his wife, my great grandmother, had a terrible experience getting away from her abusive first husband.

Crazy to think that a man born in the 1860s was more progressive than some men today.

[Anonymous]

It's so weird that there is anyone persisting with this straw man argument that feminism and relationship happiness are incompatible. The best I can see is that feminism (whatever that is taken to mean here) has made marriage less common or divorce more common. But whether that relates to relationship happiness isn't clear at all.

I think there is a legitimate question whether society is better off with less marriage and more divorce, and all that entails as to birth rate and raising children. I'm sure this has been studied, but my guess is that you need to be really careful with which studies you rely on given the political valence of the issue.

I think that anyone with a brain has to understand that if we see feminism as giving women equal rights and equal ability to control their own lives, it is good regardless of its effects on relationship happiness. I think that relationships can be consistent with that view of feminism even if they are arranged in "traditional" ways (i.e., hetero, woman stays home to rear children, man works), as long as it is the free choice and desire of all involved.

But setting up the argument as you can either have feminism or a happy "traditional" marriage is a straw man and gets us nowhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Women (and men) don't need to put up with BS from immature, selfish partners.

Most women would choose to be with an evolved partner who brings love and respect to the relationship. If you aren't capable of that, don't blame women.

Why would I blame women when I'm a happily married woman? can you see past the tip of your own nose?

You're blaming women/feminism for not tolerating terrible partners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

It's almost like you can't read.

The long post is literally about a man, and others like him, who desperately wants marriage. In fact needs it to gain access to some basic aspects of the human experience (having kids, having friends, feeling like life is meaningful). But because feminism allows women the choice, these men cannot find a wife by offering her the essential protection and access to money that marriage used to offer women. He has to actually be a man worth marrying. And even though he actively WANTS to get married, in fact is bitter that he is not married, he STILL won't do the work necessary to be a man worth marrying.

Both men and women want to get married. Most women and many men are willing to make some effort to make themselves worthy of a partner. Marriage still offers immense benefits for both people in terms of a foundation for having kids, financial stability, and longterm companionship. But there is this group of men (of which you are a part) who just refuses to accept the idea that in order to access those benefits, you might actually have to offer a potential partner more than a warm body. Mysteriously! You would actually be a happier, more fulfilled person in general if you worked on yourself to make yourself a worthy partner, even it didn't lead to marriage! But you won't do it. For some reason.

No, men and women don't want to get married. It's like you live in delululand.

Some do, some don't.

The good thing is that fewer people are forced into terrible marriages because they had no other choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

A contract needs to benefit both parties. If it doesn't, it needs to be renegotiated

But we're reached a point where relationships don't offer people anything of value.

Then let relationships end and the institution of marriage die.

We don't have to "let" anything happen, it's already happening. The writing is on the wall but some of you are still stubbornly arguing that it isn't.

So what? What are you not getting about the fact that we don't care?

Of course you care because you're in here arguing that the future of relationships is great because everyone is equal. When the reality is more and more people are opting out and not bothering at all. So great!

The people opting out of equal relationships are the exact reason things are better for everyone else. You don't belong in a relationship if you can't handle equal power dynamics.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Do you have sons or daughters?

I have daughters so obviously I am grateful they now have the choice on whether they want to get married or not. I’m grateful they can earn their own money so they aren’t tethered to a bad man. We spend a lot of time talking about the behavior of boys in their class and men that we know, and I teach them how to spot the red flags and what they mean.

Above everything I want them to be happy. If that means marriage, great. If it doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I don’t want either to feel like they HAVE to get married and have kids, like I did.

Now, boy parents are different from what I’ve observed. Their parents ARE worried because they know their sons want a relationship and really needs a mommy figure to take care of their little boy, and nobody wants them. But rather than self-reflect on why they raised their son to be entitled and useless, they want to trap a woman. It’s pretty disgusting.

+1, another mother of a daughter here and I am very grateful for the opportunities my daughter now has that were not available to my mom or grandmother.

But I see what the PP might be saying about boys. I actually think it's a hard time to raise a boy. I don't think this is the fault of feminism, but more the fault of the backlash to feminism. There are so many forces seeking to convince young men that feminism and the modern world are out to get them, that everything would be better for them if we could just turn back the clock 80 years, and that women and feminism and "liberals" are the reason they can't find jobs or are not happy in relationships. It's deeply toxic and I really feel for parents with sons who have to fight that to try and turn their sons into functional people with a shot at happiness.

I hope they figure it out because my DD talks about wanting to have a family someday, and I know it will be easiest for her if she can create that family with a good man. I hope there are good men.

Yup. The RWNJ anti-feminism propaganda runs deep though social media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously it's a negative for relationships. That doesn't meant there aren't other positives. But for relationships, no. Now women don't need men and men don't need women.

Do you think relationships are better when they reflect “needs“? I think the fact that I don’t “need” my husband to support me financially, sign for any business deal I do, or give me permission for medical treatment makes our relationship much better. Is your hypothesis that in places where women do not have rights, relationship relationships are better? Because, at least a news reporting, there seem to be a lot of murders and suicides of women being abused.

The question one is it better for relationships. No. It's not. Men can get the sex they want by never marrying and women can support themselves and kids if they want them. Neither "needs" a relationship to get their needs met.

People should never need to be together. They should want to be together.

Except that was the point of the social contract between men and women that worked for eons. And now that's broken. Men can get sex whenever they want and women can support themselves. There really is no point to a relationship for most people. Soon there will be bots so men won't even need a real woman. You can decide if that's better or not.

I don't think this is true, because men as a group haven't done the work to become more balanced people, but women have. Men can't get sex whenever they want because it requires a woman to want to have sex with them (and women have more choice than ever now), and it seems like there are things a lot of men want and either can only get in relationships or vastly prefer to get them in relationships (kids, societal connections and belonging, stability, etc.). Women also seem to prefer getting these in relationships, though it seems on the whole, women who don't find marriage are better able to attain these things than men do.

I think of my BIL who is never married, quite bitter about it, and very lonely. He lacks a lot of social skills that would enable him to build and maintain friendships, doesn't really know how to make his home nice, and absolutely could not raise kids on his own. Then I think of the half dozen female friends I have who are also never married, but still have really lovely lives. They are financially stable and work to give their lives structure and meaning without a spouse. Several of them have had kids on their own and done a good job of figuring out how to make that work (often living near family to ensure greater stability, making enough to afford nannies and other supports to cover childcare gaps). Others instead focus on friendships, travel, and hobbies. They are all very happy. I think all of them would have been happy to marry IF they had found the right person at the right time, but they didn't and demonstrated a lot of resiliency in figuring out how to make it work for them anyway.

Meanwhile my BIL sits around angry at the world for not providing him with a wife to compensate for all his shortcomings. He wanted someone who would not only give him sex, but also children and create a comfortable home for him and manage his social life and cook his meals. He also would have needed a woman who would do all that while also earning an income, because he's a low earner who is often unemployed and would not have been able to support a family on his own. My MIL often laments his "bad luck" in not finding a partner but the truth is that I've never met a woman who would be willing to take all that on. He has had several lengthy and somewhat serious relationships but they don't last because he'll start out on his best behavior and then as he reveals himself to her, she realizes what she's taking on and leaves. One of his ex girlfriends was a single mom in her 40s -- she chose to stay a single mom rather than take on BIL as essentially a second dependent. More recently he dated a woman in her late 40s who never had kids and likely didn't have a ton of other romantic prospects. That one lasted two years but ultimately she decided she'd rather be alone than deal with BIL. And I've heard of other stories like this for other men. The women who reject them do fine even if it means being alone. The men don't.

The biggest problem with feminism is that some men have not stepped up to the plate and bettered themselves to make themselves worthy of women and marriage. When women have the choice to support themselves and be alone, it might not be their first choice but they can make it work and some even really enjoy it. And men suffer because before feminism, those women would have HAD to marry. Independence was not an option and they would have been really exposed and in danger of starvation or physical harm without a husband. That single mom especially would likely never have chosen to give up the protection of a husband, even one as burdensome as my BIL, because her prospects would have been so bad.

Feminism is a net positive for women in relationships because it has allowed us to choose, and offered us an alternative to marriage if we can't find a man we want to marry. For reasons I frankly don't understand, men have not seized the opportunity to make that same choice for themselves, and there are too many men (see the incel movement if you are looking for examples) still view access to women and a wife as a god-given right even though they've done nothing to earn the love of a woman.

[phone] YES

That's great that you keep telling us why women don't need men. But men don't need women either. If you think this is a plus for society then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you have children you might be wondering what the future will look like for them.

Which aspect of feminism are you suggesting it’s in my daughter’s best interest to roll back? The laws that keep her from being raped by her future spouse? The legal right to leave her marriage? The right to have medical treatment without her husband’s permission? Truly what am I supposed to be worrying about for her?

I don't know about your daughter but I'm worried for my daughter's future. I don't think the dating pool full of eligible men is going to be vast because all the young men will have shaped up due to feminism. She will be lucky to find someone and the odds are more likely she will stay single. I guess she could have kids but being a single working mom is no picnic and nothing one should aspire to.

Yes, blame it all on women.