Antisemitism vs anticatholicism
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Anonymous
This doesn't have to be true, though. If Israel ended the occupation tomorrow, it could easily maintain a Jewish democracy with equal rights for all citizens for generations. The demographic problem with Israel as a Jewish state and also a democratic state is the millions of Palestinians living with no rights, not the smaller number of Palestinians who have the right to vote, own land, etc. |
Anonymous
The concept of Zionism isn't that Israel is simply a nation-state with a Jewish majority. It is that Israel is specifically a Jewish state. For now, yes, Israel could range equal rights to those living in the occupied territories and still have a Jewish plurality (and maybe a slight majority). But doing so would be inconsistent with Zionism. And part of that is due to the practical issue that in such a situation, the Jewish plurality wouldn't remain for long. You would see a Muslim majority almost certainly within a generation. I think Netanyahu realizes Israel will eventually be forced to either annex and extend citizenship to the occupied territories, or give them up. I think part of the motivation for the genocide in Gaza is to reduce the Palestinian population enough to push off a potential Muslim majority for another generation, should Israel choose annexation over granting sovereignty. Again, annexation with civil rights wouldn't be consistent with Zionism, but many Jews today aren't Zionists. And annexation without civil rights would solidify Israel's reputation as the modern day South Africa. Even if they did that, they'd eventually be forced to grant civil rights to the Palestinians. |
Anonymous
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"More than half of Jewish Americans say they've faced antisemitism in the past year — and most now see it as a routine part of Jewish life, according to a new survey"
https://www.axios.com/2025/10/06/jewish-americans-antisemitism-normal-violence-adl |
Anonymous
I wasn't talking about annexation, I was talking about giving the occupied territories up, which they should have done decades ago. |
Anonymous
Traditionally, antisemitism HAS been a routine part of Jewish life, it's the recent decades here in the U.S. that are the exception. |
Anonymous
It would be interesting to see how/if that number has changed over time. That's appears to have been worded quite broadly. It would be like asking others if they've experienced racism or discrimination. I would expect the number of incidents to go up, in part simply because of the attention of the situation in Gaza. But as phrased, I'd expect that to be rather high all the time. |
Anonymous
Israel isn't going to give up the occupied territories. They obviously have no desire to give up Jerusalem, and they've been clear they don't intend to give up the West Bank. And while they'd love to give Gaza to Egypt, Israel has done so much damage to it that no one is going to be willing to take it. And they won't give it up to the Palestinians themselves. They will eventually be forced to annex the territories unless they dramatically change their position on a two state solution. And even the latter is unlikely to work, as Israel has taken the areas necessary for an economically viable country. Regardless, the point is that Zionism is more than believing that Israel should exist. You're right that a path for Zionism is to maintain a clear and strong Jewish majority in Israel, but that but guarantees the persecution of Palestinians for the foreseeable future. |
Anonymous
Right, but just because they aren’t going to do the only things that actually make sense for security and justice for everyone living in the area doesn’t mean that giving up the occupied territories is incompatible with Zionism or that all self-identifying Zionists agree with their insane decisions. |
Anonymous
I didn't say giving up occupied is incompatible with Zionism. I said annexation with equal rights is incompatible. The issue is that meaningful independence and viability of a Palestinian state simply isn't going to happen. And it sounds like you understand that is reality. So Zionism has implications. Bad ones. The only plausible path to a long-term peace is a one-state solution with equal rights, but Zionists don't want that. It sounds like you don't want that, either. From your previous message, it sounds like you're only comfortable with equal rights if the Jewish population maintains control. Which isn't really equal rights if you set off with that explicit objective. |
Anonymous
everyone in the US had the freedom to worship the religion of their choice Unfortunately we can’t say on some forums that some of these religions make no sense All three of the Abrahamic religions have their fatal flaws |
Anonymous
We can say whatever we want. |
Anonymous
| go ahead and give it a try😆 |
Anonymous
In both cases, I think there can be a fuzzy line between comments directed at the religion versus against their related organizations - namely, the Catholic Church and the state of Israel. Some people seem to take critiscm of those entities as descrimination against the religious/ethnic group. |
Anonymous
No, what I actually want is a return to pre-1967 borders with settlers being relocated by military force and then a viable Palestinian state. But that isn’t going to happen, either. I also don’t think a one-state future that guarantees equal rights and security for everyone will be much easier to bring about than my preferred form of a two-state one, though. But the status quo is obviously completely unacceptable, as is annexation. So we need better ideas from better people than are currently in charge in Israel, to start. I imagine it would be helpful if Palestinians had better leaders, too, but I don’t feel qualified to criticize them the way I do Jews. My only real point here is that Zionism includes a VAST array of opinions about Israel and doesn’t automatically imply a lot of what people seem to think it does. |
Anonymous
This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality. Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps: Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it. Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires. There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist. |