Antisemitism vs anticatholicism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

I’m confused. You’re totally okay with the 53 Muslim countries where Muslims are in power and treat other religions poorly, but you can’t understand why Jews want ONE country where they maintain power? Jews aren’t the colonizers of the Middle East. That doesn’t mean I am okay with this war, but I’m just confused how you cannot understand this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

This. Zionism is not merely the belief in a Jewish homeland. Nothing comes without consequences. It isn't as if Israel was some empty piece of land - people lived there. Palestinians LIVE there. Kicking them out for the sake of your "homeland" is inherently violent.

Finding and buying an empty, deserted piece of land for a homeland? Ok, sure. But Israel wasn't created without severe costs to others. If you support zionism, you inherently support violence.

Great, so what do you want to do about it going forward? This is not an argument in the 1890s or 1920s or 1940s about whether to start allowing Jews to migrate there. (Many of whom did, in fact, buy empty parcels of land, though I don't say that to deny that many others also murdered inhabitants or otherwise forced them out violently.) I don't see the point in litigating "should Israel have been founded" when it's already existed for almost 80 years.

But Zionism IS, in fact, merely the belief in a Jewish homeland, or at least, it can be. It certainly doesn't have to be the maximalist version espoused by the Israeli government and many of its allies. Why are you trying to tell me I have to choose between Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir, on one hand, and people who think there shouldn't be a state of Israel at all, on the other?

You keep trying to change the meaning of Zionism. It isn't just that Israel should exist, nor is it a belief in a "Jewish homeland."

Fundamental to Zionism has always been to
create and maintain a *Jewish state*, not a state with equal rights that is safe for Jews.

Some of your other posts strongly suggest you also subscribe to that notion of Zionism. You just want people to ignore how it necessarily results in a discriminatory society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

I’m confused. You’re totally okay with the 53 Muslim countries where Muslims are in power and treat other religions poorly, but you can’t understand why Jews want ONE country where they maintain power? Jews aren’t the colonizers of the Middle East. That doesn’t mean I am okay with this war, but I’m just confused how you cannot understand this.

Where has anyone in this thread defended the discriminatory practices of majority Muslim nations?

You've given up on defending it on its merits- now your defense is that other countries do bad things, too? You don't see a problem with that?

[Anonymous]

But I'll add this more directly to the case of Israel: if you want to move into an area claimed as a holy land by multiple religions, you better be willing to share.

Palestinians and Muslims certainly aren't without blame, either. They were there before the modern Jewish population, and I certainly don't think the Palestine Mandate or the UN Partition Plan were remotely fair to the existing population, but in the time since they certainly haven't demonstrated a willingness to share, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But I'll add this more directly to the case of Israel: if you want to move into an area claimed as a holy land by multiple religions, you better be willing to share.

Palestinians and Muslims certainly aren't without blame, either. They were there before the modern Jewish population, and I certainly don't think the Palestine Mandate or the UN Partition Plan were remotely fair to the existing population, but in the time since they certainly haven't demonstrated a willingness to share, either.

Which religion was first in the area?

Which religion acquires area in the area and the surrounding area got land by conquest?

No one owes Muslims anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

I’m confused. You’re totally okay with the 53 Muslim countries where Muslims are in power and treat other religions poorly, but you can’t understand why Jews want ONE country where they maintain power? Jews aren’t the colonizers of the Middle East. That doesn’t mean I am okay with this war, but I’m just confused how you cannot understand this.

Where has anyone in this thread defended the discriminatory practices of majority Muslim nations?

You've given up on defending it on its merits- now your defense is that other countries do bad things, too? You don't see a problem with that?

Nope the defense is that these counties are all doing normal things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

This. Zionism is not merely the belief in a Jewish homeland. Nothing comes without consequences. It isn't as if Israel was some empty piece of land - people lived there. Palestinians LIVE there. Kicking them out for the sake of your "homeland" is inherently violent.

Finding and buying an empty, deserted piece of land for a homeland? Ok, sure. But Israel wasn't created without severe costs to others. If you support zionism, you inherently support violence.

Great, so what do you want to do about it going forward? This is not an argument in the 1890s or 1920s or 1940s about whether to start allowing Jews to migrate there. (Many of whom did, in fact, buy empty parcels of land, though I don't say that to deny that many others also murdered inhabitants or otherwise forced them out violently.) I don't see the point in litigating "should Israel have been founded" when it's already existed for almost 80 years.

But Zionism IS, in fact, merely the belief in a Jewish homeland, or at least, it can be. It certainly doesn't have to be the maximalist version espoused by the Israeli government and many of its allies. Why are you trying to tell me I have to choose between Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir, on one hand, and people who think there shouldn't be a state of Israel at all, on the other?

Because this person is not having a discussion with you in good faith. They want Israel to cease to exists and are coming up with excuses.

While I'm sure there are some people that hold that position in the US, they seem to be few and far between.

While their path and method was a bit different (and much more sudden), the modern Jewish population in Israel are basically the descendants of colonizers who brought great harm to the existing population. And while no colonizers have done a good, or even adequate, job with this, I do think the colonizers that came out on top have an obligation to those they stepped on to clean up the mess they made. And Israel has consistently done the opposite of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

I’m confused. You’re totally okay with the 53 Muslim countries where Muslims are in power and treat other religions poorly, but you can’t understand why Jews want ONE country where they maintain power? Jews aren’t the colonizers of the Middle East. That doesn’t mean I am okay with this war, but I’m just confused how you cannot understand this.

Where has anyone in this thread defended the discriminatory practices of majority Muslim nations?

You've given up on defending it on its merits- now your defense is that other countries do bad things, too? You don't see a problem with that?

Nope the defense is that these counties are all doing normal things.

Discrimination may be normal, but that's not justification.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But I'll add this more directly to the case of Israel: if you want to move into an area claimed as a holy land by multiple religions, you better be willing to share.

Palestinians and Muslims certainly aren't without blame, either. They were there before the modern Jewish population, and I certainly don't think the Palestine Mandate or the UN Partition Plan were remotely fair to the existing population, but in the time since they certainly haven't demonstrated a willingness to share, either.

Which religion was first in the area?

Which religion acquires area in the area and the surrounding area got land by conquest?

No one owes Muslims anything.

So, because Romans killed a bunch of Jews 2,000 years ago, their descendants were justified in killing and forcibly removing Muslims about 80 generations later?

Heck, it was the Muslim Caliphates that first allowed Jews to return to Jerusalem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

Other than doing so for political party purposes, nothing wrong with the bolded. The U.S. is free to decide who immigrates here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But I'll add this more directly to the case of Israel: if you want to move into an area claimed as a holy land by multiple religions, you better be willing to share.

Palestinians and Muslims certainly aren't without blame, either. They were there before the modern Jewish population, and I certainly don't think the Palestine Mandate or the UN Partition Plan were remotely fair to the existing population, but in the time since they certainly haven't demonstrated a willingness to share, either.

Which religion was first in the area?

Which religion acquires area in the area and the surrounding area got land by conquest?

No one owes Muslims anything.

So, because Romans killed a bunch of Jews 2,000 years ago, their descendants were justified in killing and forcibly removing Muslims about 80 generations later?

Heck, it was the Muslim Caliphates that first allowed Jews to return to Jerusalem.

Answer your own rhetorical questions or make the point you want to make. I am not your student so not engaging in socratic method with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

I’m confused. You’re totally okay with the 53 Muslim countries where Muslims are in power and treat other religions poorly, but you can’t understand why Jews want ONE country where they maintain power? Jews aren’t the colonizers of the Middle East. That doesn’t mean I am okay with this war, but I’m just confused how you cannot understand this.

Where has anyone in this thread defended the discriminatory practices of majority Muslim nations?

You've given up on defending it on its merits- now your defense is that other countries do bad things, too? You don't see a problem with that?

Nope the defense is that these counties are all doing normal things.

Discrimination may be normal, but that's not justification.

You are using the word discrimination, that is your pretext.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

No, that’s what you think Zionists want. I know people — rabbis, even — who consider themselves Zionists but also
want Israel to withdraw completely from all the occupied territories and ensure a viable Palestinian state there, and who also vehemently opposed the nation-says law. In Israel’s actual territory, Palestinian citizens can vote and there are multiple Palestinian political parties. You, like the worst elements of Israeli politics, seem to assume that Zionism can only be the most extreme version of itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Antisemitism is not just about religious belief.

Bingo. Jews are despised for being Jewish, not because they are religious.

No. We despise Zionism.

Zionism is code for Jews.

No, it's not. Zionism is the minority of American Jews who still support Israel.

Zionism is also Christians who have nothing but violence in their hearts, for the sake of their messianic mythological prophecy.

Zionism is still the majority view of most American Jews. I think you're misunderstanding what Zionism is. One can (and many do) support the existence of the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace without supporting Bibi's administration or the specifics of the way his government is handling the war in Gaza (or settlements in the West Bank). Much like how I can be a patriotic American without supporting Trump or the Republican majority's policies. This really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is the modern liberal whitewashed version of Zionism that is really not grounded in reality.

Anybody who calls themselves a Zionist falls into one of two camps:

Evil: because they know exactly what Zionism has meant for Palestinians: displacement, massacres, occupation, apartheid. They see it, they accept it, and they justify it.

Ignorant: because they’ve bought the sanitized PR version of Zionism as “just Jewish self-determination,” without ever looking at the Nakba, the ongoing ethnic cleansing, or what “a Jewish ethnostate” on stolen land actually requires.

There’s no clean, innocent version of Zionism. Its history and its present are the same: violence and removal or elimination of Palestinians to a degree that allows Israel to exist.

The history can no longer be changed. Unless you’re planning to move 8 million Jewish Israelis elsewhere, whatever happens in the future has to account for Israel existing. But plenty of people who describe ourselves in some form as Zionists are well aware of the Nakba and the very ugly way the state was born. Many of us oppose the ethnostate law that the Knesset passed. You’re trying to set up a binary that flattens everything into categories that ultimately cuts out people who should be natural allies of the goal of a more just future for Palestinians and Palestinian citizens of Israel.

I agree with the idea that it isn't practical or reasonable to imagine removing Jews who settled in Israel after WW2. But that doesn't mean that it reasonable to deny Palestinians rights in those areas. That's what makes Zionism bad.

Yes, and many people who are Zionists (and therefore "bad") agree with you that it's not reasonable to deny Palestinians rights. We just also don't want Israel to disappear tomorrow, either.

Except that they've deliberately created a society that is unequal. Surely you understand that. Ensuring the continuation of Israel isn't enough for Zionists. They also want to ensure that the Jewish people in the country remain in power.

It would be like if the US decided to institute strict immigration limits and normalize institutional discrimination for the purposes of keeping a political party or demographic in power. Which, unfortunately, is close to what we're seeing right now.

I really don't understand how you can justify or defend a philosophy inherently based on discriminatory values. Regardless of the philosophy, the country, or the ethnic/religious group.

Other than doing so for political party purposes, nothing wrong with the bolded. The U.S. is free to decide who immigrates here.

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Just make sure they're white and Christian.

Yep, all good there...