How to fix our crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A little bit of Shakespeare is fine, but not every year. Maybe one play and a sonnet. If kid wants to take an elective on top of that, fine.

+10000. Every time this is borough up, some English major or Shakespeare lover gets butthurt and acts as if you won’t understand the world without Shakespeare. I love Macbeth personally, but there is no way learning outcomes are being achieved teaching Shakespeare. There’s also much better and approachable writers who are key figures of the canon- Sophocles’s plays for example are really popular with students.

Taking boys interest could also improve the classroom. There’s a big appeal amongst teenage boys to read Salinger, Kafka, and Murikami. My son always hated English class until his senior year when his teacher had them read Jhumpa Lahiri- suddenly he was tearing through books.

So, I'm sure you'd agree - math lovers don't need to get "butthurt" when told (correctly) that we can understand the world just fine without calculus. Right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop teaching so many courses. We could consolidate many ap English and history courses to a series of Humanities courses- literally call them Humanities 1, 2, and 3. Make them rigorous general education courses on US and global history, English Literature, and potentially add in some philosophy/sociology in the later coursework. Increase and normalize the “fast track” where Algebra 1 is taken in 8th grade across the country; then, by senior year have students choose between a project-based stats course or calc.

Stop making students take every class under the sun for elite colleges and have them tested across these two courses: Humanities and Math to free up space for whatever electives they want. If you wanna take Humanities, Calc 3, Physics, Bio, and Chem with a language, do it. If you wanna take Humanities, Stats, Latin, Advanced European history, do it. No reason why we have to take so many classes across the spectrum that we don’t care about.

Because not everyone is ready for Algebra I in 8th grade.

I watched this unfold with my oldest in HoCo (at a MS in the Top 25%). Someone decided in 6th grade that everyone needed to be at least 1 grade level ahead in math. So they eliminated the 6th grade math courses and put all those kids in 7th grade math. Well, for my kid, it worked out. They have a talent for math, but have learning issues (anxiety, reading issues and ADHD) so had never tested into advanced math. After a D on first test (highest score in class), they went on to get an A that year and excel. However, the first 6 weeks of math were HELL for many many students, who simply were not ready for skipping a year of math at the 6/7th grade level---there is a reason they were ON GRADE LEVEL. It was a nightmare for on friends kid. Parents and kid went thru hell trying to do the homework, study and the stress was not needed. After 6 weeks, that parent along with others finally convinced the school to put some kids back into 6th grade math. That friend's kid got a B+ in math that year. And you know what, that kid went on to be a journalism major, and started working in sports journalism immediately upon graduation from a 4 year college and has continued to find great jobs to advance their career. They are happy, just not a STEM oriented kid. But that first 6-8 weeks of MS was an unnecessary hell and made the transition difficult (and killed the kids already fragile self esteem about math---they already felt they were not good at math---it's HoCo, everyone is advanced it seems. )

Parents need to stop teaching their kids that being bad at math should personally affect them. Way too much societal clearance that being trash at math is normal and valid. People speak about being bad at math like they’re being tortured-no, you struggle with critical thinking and don’t like being challenged. So many people “like math when I get it”

DP. Are you (or your kid) "trash" at reading Shakespeare? If so, I guess you don't like being challenged. Right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Making calculus a graduation requirement and not guaranteeing a high school diploma would fix a ton of our issues

How ridiculous. Unless one is going into a STEM field, calculus is completely unnecessary - and useless.

“Calculus is useless” is exactly why our education system is so bad. So many parents happy to have ignorant kids.

Once again, unless you are going into STEM field, calculus is NOT needed. So why force kids to take it when they could instead be taking more useful courses? Like Statistics for useful math, and personal finance for kids not on a college path (along with stats).

I'd prefer my kid who wants to be a journalism major be editor of the school newspaper, or take a period or two to intern while in HS, rather than being forced to take calculus

Yep. I'd prefer my kid who wants to be a liberal arts major to take a foreign language through the AP level or double up on AP history/English/science courses.

And a calculus class will stop that how? You have 32 course options throughout high school. This seems like a non issue.

In many private schools, students have to take four years of religion so that limits other courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Statistics and data science are way more useful for the average person than calculus. I run a small research firm and I am constantly looking for people with even basic skills understanding and interpreting data. It's frustrating how many college graduates don't seem to have these skills even when their pure math skills are better than mine. Very little of our work requires complex math but being able to run a statistical analysis on a data set, and to understand which conclusions are supported by the data and which aren't, is essential.

In the last few years we have been incorporating more AI capabilities into our work, both on our own initiative and often at the behest of clients. AI is really good at math. AI is crap at making judgment calls that require you to synthesize both quantitative information and qualitative factors. I need people who can utilize AI while also adding value with their analytical ability. These skills are sadly lacking in the current workforce but are in very high demand among my clients. I could probably take on 3-4x the number of projects I currently do if I could find more people. As it stands I regular turn down work because I lack capacity. I've also had two clients hire away some of my best people for in-house positions in the last year because they are looking for the same skills.

I think a lot of math-based jobs are going to become obsolete in the next 10 years due to AI, and we are not doing enough educate people to be critical thinkers with analytical ability.

Well said. I completely agree.

[Anonymous]

To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Making calculus a graduation requirement and not guaranteeing a high school diploma would fix a ton of our issues

How ridiculous. Unless one is going into a STEM field, calculus is completely unnecessary - and useless.

“Calculus is useless” is exactly why our education system is so bad. So many parents happy to have ignorant kids.

Once again, unless you are going into STEM field, calculus is NOT needed. So why force kids to take it when they could instead be taking more useful courses? Like Statistics for useful math, and personal finance for kids not on a college path (along with stats).

I'd prefer my kid who wants to be a journalism major be editor of the school newspaper, or take a period or two to intern while in HS, rather than being forced to take calculus

Yep. I'd prefer my kid who wants to be a liberal arts major to take a foreign language through the AP level or double up on AP history/English/science courses.

And a calculus class will stop that how? You have 32 course options throughout high school. This seems like a non issue.

In many private schools, students have to take four years of religion so that limits other courses.

Federal changes to education won’t effect your child in that case so…?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Making calculus a graduation requirement and not guaranteeing a high school diploma would fix a ton of our issues

How ridiculous. Unless one is going into a STEM field, calculus is completely unnecessary - and useless.

“Calculus is useless” is exactly why our education system is so bad. So many parents happy to have ignorant kids.

Once again, unless you are going into STEM field, calculus is NOT needed. So why force kids to take it when they could instead be taking more useful courses? Like Statistics for useful math, and personal finance for kids not on a college path (along with stats).

I'd prefer my kid who wants to be a journalism major be editor of the school newspaper, or take a period or two to intern while in HS, rather than being forced to take calculus

Yep. I'd prefer my kid who wants to be a liberal arts major to take a foreign language through the AP level or double up on AP history/English/science courses.

And a calculus class will stop that how? You have 32 course options throughout high school. This seems like a non issue.

Yes, it is indeed a non-issue because my kid will not need to take calculus. Thanks for your concern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop teaching so many courses. We could consolidate many ap English and history courses to a series of Humanities courses- literally call them Humanities 1, 2, and 3. Make them rigorous general education courses on US and global history, English Literature, and potentially add in some philosophy/sociology in the later coursework. Increase and normalize the “fast track” where Algebra 1 is taken in 8th grade across the country; then, by senior year have students choose between a project-based stats course or calc.

Stop making students take every class under the sun for elite colleges and have them tested across these two courses: Humanities and Math to free up space for whatever electives they want. If you wanna take Humanities, Calc 3, Physics, Bio, and Chem with a language, do it. If you wanna take Humanities, Stats, Latin, Advanced European history, do it. No reason why we have to take so many classes across the spectrum that we don’t care about.

Because not everyone is ready for Algebra I in 8th grade.

I watched this unfold with my oldest in HoCo (at a MS in the Top 25%). Someone decided in 6th grade that everyone needed to be at least 1 grade level ahead in math. So they eliminated the 6th grade math courses and put all those kids in 7th grade math. Well, for my kid, it worked out. They have a talent for math, but have learning issues (anxiety, reading issues and ADHD) so had never tested into advanced math. After a D on first test (highest score in class), they went on to get an A that year and excel. However, the first 6 weeks of math were HELL for many many students, who simply were not ready for skipping a year of math at the 6/7th grade level---there is a reason they were ON GRADE LEVEL. It was a nightmare for on friends kid. Parents and kid went thru hell trying to do the homework, study and the stress was not needed. After 6 weeks, that parent along with others finally convinced the school to put some kids back into 6th grade math. That friend's kid got a B+ in math that year. And you know what, that kid went on to be a journalism major, and started working in sports journalism immediately upon graduation from a 4 year college and has continued to find great jobs to advance their career. They are happy, just not a STEM oriented kid. But that first 6-8 weeks of MS was an unnecessary hell and made the transition difficult (and killed the kids already fragile self esteem about math---they already felt they were not good at math---it's HoCo, everyone is advanced it seems. )

Parents need to stop teaching their kids that being bad at math should personally affect them. Way too much societal clearance that being trash at math is normal and valid. People speak about being bad at math like they’re being tortured-no, you struggle with critical thinking and don’t like being challenged. So many people “like math when I get it”

DP. Are you (or your kid) "trash" at reading Shakespeare? If so, I guess you don't like being challenged. Right?

Nope. My kid is thinking of double majoring in philosophy and math. Not everyone has to make excuses for their defeatist attitudes with being bad at things. You practice and you can get better at any subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Statistics and data science are way more useful for the average person than calculus. I run a small research firm and I am constantly looking for people with even basic skills understanding and interpreting data. It's frustrating how many college graduates don't seem to have these skills even when their pure math skills are better than mine. Very little of our work requires complex math but being able to run a statistical analysis on a data set, and to understand which conclusions are supported by the data and which aren't, is essential.

In the last few years we have been incorporating more AI capabilities into our work, both on our own initiative and often at the behest of clients. AI is really good at math. AI is crap at making judgment calls that require you to synthesize both quantitative information and qualitative factors. I need people who can utilize AI while also adding value with their analytical ability. These skills are sadly lacking in the current workforce but are in very high demand among my clients. I could probably take on 3-4x the number of projects I currently do if I could find more people. As it stands I regular turn down work because I lack capacity. I've also had two clients hire away some of my best people for in-house positions in the last year because they are looking for the same skills.

I think a lot of math-based jobs are going to become obsolete in the next 10 years due to AI, and we are not doing enough educate people to be critical thinkers with analytical ability.

AMEN.

And you know how to grow analytical thinkers? BY READING. Including Shakespeare. Kids don't read today. Who gives a shit about calculus when our kids can't even read books??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A little bit of Shakespeare is fine, but not every year. Maybe one play and a sonnet. If kid wants to take an elective on top of that, fine.

+10000. Every time this is borough up, some English major or Shakespeare lover gets butthurt and acts as if you won’t understand the world without Shakespeare. I love Macbeth personally, but there is no way learning outcomes are being achieved teaching Shakespeare. There’s also much better and approachable writers who are key figures of the canon- Sophocles’s plays for example are really popular with students.

Taking boys interest could also improve the classroom. There’s a big appeal amongst teenage boys to read Salinger, Kafka, and Murikami. My son always hated English class until his senior year when his teacher had them read Jhumpa Lahiri- suddenly he was tearing through books.

So, I'm sure you'd agree - math lovers don't need to get "butthurt" when told (correctly) that we can understand the world just fine without calculus. Right?

Yes. I’m not sure why you commented this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched the stand up special from Ronny Chieng last night and he had a really funny bit about how his MAGA friends are willing to die for America but there not willing to do math homework for America, and what America really needs is more people who are willing to learn the skills for a post-manufacturing economy.
I’m not doing it justice but it was both funny and very smart.

There's no need to bring politics into this, but since you did... tell us all about the abysmal schools and test scores of urban inner-city kids. Are they "willing to do their math homework" and "willing to learn the skills for a post-manufacturing economy"? We'll wait.

Of course you bring urban kids in first. The dog whistle is really getting slobber all over it from the people on this forum. Could’ve talked about anyone else.

Found someone else who is completely unable to read. The above post is in response to the PPP - you? - who thought it would be clever to $hit on MAGA in the college forum. I’ve helpfully bolded the pertinent words for you. Get a grip.

+1
PP is selectively outraged. So typical.

Still makes no sense to make fun of “urban” kids because someone came after your political clique…

Oh, ok. You think it's fine to claim rural white kids are ignorant (and yes, that was exactly the implication), but not at all fine to make the same claim about inner-city kids. Hypocrite, much?
DP

No one said anything about rural white kids, so I really have no idea what you are talking about. This might be a crazy concept for you, but I don’t believe in shaming kids of any background, because they are kids. Why do “MAGA friends”=rural white kids in your mind? Let’s take away the political affiliation, you thought someone posting on DCUM was talking about their friends as children? I get arguing to argue is fun, but this is nonsensical.

Ok, I can see that we'll have to spell this out for you as you're clearly quite dense. Here's the exact quote - that you had no problem with:

"...how his MAGA friends are willing to die for America but there (sic - left in this poster's idiotic misspelling) not willing to do math homework for America, and what America really needs is more people who are willing to learn the skills for a post-manufacturing economy."

The poster is very clearly slamming "MAGA" people in general as being ignorant. The rebuttal, mentioning inner-city kids, was in direct response to this. If you had no problem with the MAGA comment, then you should have no problem with the exact same comment about inner-city kids. Maybe you'd prefer inner-city "people." Whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A little bit of Shakespeare is fine, but not every year. Maybe one play and a sonnet. If kid wants to take an elective on top of that, fine.

+10000. Every time this is borough up, some English major or Shakespeare lover gets butthurt and acts as if you won’t understand the world without Shakespeare. I love Macbeth personally, but there is no way learning outcomes are being achieved teaching Shakespeare. There’s also much better and approachable writers who are key figures of the canon- Sophocles’s plays for example are really popular with students.

Taking boys interest could also improve the classroom. There’s a big appeal amongst teenage boys to read Salinger, Kafka, and Murikami. My son always hated English class until his senior year when his teacher had them read Jhumpa Lahiri- suddenly he was tearing through books.

So, I'm sure you'd agree - math lovers don't need to get "butthurt" when told (correctly) that we can understand the world just fine without calculus. Right?

Sure, if you aren't going into STEM, you don't need Calc. But, it might hurt your college acceptances.

[Anonymous]

Your child being bad at STEM isn’t everyone else’s problem. My child has gotten top scores for his essay writing and excels at English. He wants to be an engineer and doesn’t get to opt out of English courses, because he finds it useless.

For people interested in argumentation and the humanities, the defensiveness and poor reasoning skills make me want to ask if some of you have taken an English class yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I watched the stand up special from Ronny Chieng last night and he had a really funny bit about how his MAGA friends are willing to die for America but there not willing to do math homework for America, and what America really needs is more people who are willing to learn the skills for a post-manufacturing economy.
I’m not doing it justice but it was both funny and very smart.

There's no need to bring politics into this, but since you did... tell us all about the abysmal schools and test scores of urban inner-city kids. Are they "willing to do their math homework" and "willing to learn the skills for a post-manufacturing economy"? We'll wait.

Of course you bring urban kids in first. The dog whistle is really getting slobber all over it from the people on this forum. Could’ve talked about anyone else.

Found someone else who is completely unable to read. The above post is in response to the PPP - you? - who thought it would be clever to $hit on MAGA in the college forum. I’ve helpfully bolded the pertinent words for you. Get a grip.

+1
PP is selectively outraged. So typical.

Still makes no sense to make fun of “urban” kids because someone came after your political clique…

Oh, ok. You think it's fine to claim rural white kids are ignorant (and yes, that was exactly the implication), but not at all fine to make the same claim about inner-city kids. Hypocrite, much?
DP

No one said anything about rural white kids, so I really have no idea what you are talking about. This might be a crazy concept for you, but I don’t believe in shaming kids of any background, because they are kids. Why do “MAGA friends”=rural white kids in your mind? Let’s take away the political affiliation, you thought someone posting on DCUM was talking about their friends as children? I get arguing to argue is fun, but this is nonsensical.

Ok, I can see that we'll have to spell this out for you as you're clearly quite dense. Here's the exact quote - that you had no problem with:

"...how his MAGA friends are willing to die for America but there (sic - left in this poster's idiotic misspelling) not willing to do math homework for America, and what America really needs is more people who are willing to learn the skills for a post-manufacturing economy."

The poster is very clearly slamming "MAGA" people in general as being ignorant. The rebuttal, mentioning inner-city kids, was in direct response to this. If you had no problem with the MAGA comment, then you should have no problem with the exact same comment about inner-city kids. Maybe you'd prefer inner-city "people." Whatever.

MAGA people can live anywhere though. And MAGA people aren’t all white. This is such a strange self report.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To whoever posted about calc as a grad requirement, I strongly disagree with the idea that it’s necessary, but I disagree with most of the humanities students screeching about it too.

Calc was a graduation requirement for my very much not elite college, and most did it freshman year, and it was not that hard. I think a lot of people get discouraged by precal and start hating math when much of calculus is learning why you do all the nonsensical algebra work in the first place, and derivatives are pretty fun for a lot of students who aren’t into math at all. There’s now high schools with calculus requirements, and they seem to be fairing fine. I can confidently say as a STEM professional that I haven’t used any geometry in my career, nor have I don’t long division since I learned the topic. I have used calculus and much of statistics is calculus.

As a STEM person, you should understand that learning higher level math isn't necessarily about applying math in your job, but about being exposed to higher level critical thinking skills.