How do you find God if you don't believe?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Postscript: I am a big fan of humility. I cannot prove my side, and you cannot prove your side.

If G-d wanted His existence to be provable, He could easily make it so, as in the Bible. Why doesn't He?

I have a number of theories on the topic, but mainly it boils down to me being a mortal humans who will never have all the answers in life.

As for how being religious makes you happy, if you read my piece about travel with family being an atonement for sin, it's a meaningful reframe of life that often comes along with a sense of community.

God proved his existence to us in so many ways. Some people just chose to ignore the evidence.

Where is this evidence?

I see evidence God exists in the world He created.

Do you have evidence I don’t see God in the world He created? If you do, well, that’s news to me. You could not be more wrong.

Oh, I don’t doubt you believe you see it

I also don’t doubt that you don’t see the presupposition of what you typed. That’s not how evidence works. What couldn’t be given credit for the origin of the universe with that logic? I see the evidence of the Loch Ness monster in the world, the Loch Ness monster created. See?

We’ve had this conversation how many times?

Evidence is not needed nor could any evidence prove or disprove God.

We don’t have tests, measurements, tools, or scientific knowledge to measure God.

You are asking repeatedly for evidence, and I give the same answer consistently correct answer, over and over again.

Sorry you can’t come to terms with reality.

Reality is that the Bible tells us that God created the universe. Period. Since the beginning of time, man has been using science to try to discover HOW that was done.

The two are not in conflict.

I'm afraid they are because humans wrote the Bible. And science doesn't presuppose a supernatural entity with divine powers created the universe. So they very much are in conflict.

Humans created science. If humans created the bible too, as you suggest, then the two can't possibly be in conflict.

alrighty then, No sense arguing with you!

Why would you come to the thread that asks people how did they found God if they don't believe? This thread addresses only people who found the God. Why would you insert yourself when you clearly don't believe in God? There are thousand other threads where you can go and find millions of atheists who share your values.

In this forum, there seems to be a lot of atheistic evangelizing in an attempt to pull people away from Christianity or faith in general. I find it odd because when I was an atheist, which was over two decades and for most of my adult life, I still recognized how precious it was to have faith and hope in something beyond this world, I just didn't have it. I would not have tried to persuade others in any direction regarding faith, or hang out in religion forums arguing about a God I didn't believe in. This makes me think those who are here are desperately seeking God and trying to fill the void created by the absence of God.

Atheists don't evangelize -- that's what Christians do. Not even other religions evangelize (e.g., Jews)

Many atheists were once religious themselves and know from their experience that no one forced them to leave religion. They did it on their own. No evangelizing.

Oh, please, read other forums where atheists bashing Christians. They may not call it evangelization, but they clearly promote the false narrative of Christianity, and their hate and despice of Christian people.

I notice that Christians bash everyone else - not just atheists - with all their evangelizing. I know many nice Christian people. Some on DCUM, but mainly not.

[Anonymous]

You don't.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am asking this question after reading a previous post about people being depressed because they don't have religion in their lives. I am an atheist in my 40s, although I considered myself Christian until my early 20's. However with life and experience I find it impossible to believe in a 'God' and especially anything written in the Bible. It all seems totally unbelievable to me and I hate the way it has given people reasons to discriminate against LGBTQ communities.

I struggle on and off with depression and sometimes I wished I did have a faith to comfort me. It is very easy for people to say you should turn to Jesus etc, but to me it is like believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

I think God is the regulation our desires that take from others or that deplete ourselves unnecessarily. I think God is showing ourselves and others love. Love and Discipline with regards to human natural instincs. Basically regulation of natural instincts and living a life of love for ourselves and others despite the world's hardships.

I personally find that people who are LGBTQ are dealing with something internally genetic that has been off perhaps for generations due to trauma. I think it's their reality but I think there is more to it that is neurological. Which is why you see so much depression and anxiety and other disorders due to this. It's not just the world. It's kind of finding their purpose in the world and somehow becoming whole themselves. I don't think it's particularly natural for people to not want to reproduce since it's a basic need. I feel the same way about single people that are single for their whole lives. Neither is a problem but I think because they don't reproduce, it's harder to find this purpose and when they do they are more stable.

This is the oddest take on God and also on LGBT people I've ever heard. You are so confused.

To you maybe. It's Jungian basically. God exists in our body and we manifest him. Also related to taoism and just current science and psychoanalytic research. God isn't real in that there is some external force we can't control nd that we are aiming at. We manifest God through ourselves. Through our thoughts and actions. We bring God into being by going beyond our animal instincts. That's what I'm basically writing about. Controlling our animal instincts in a way that allow humans to flourish and care for each other.

Homosexuality used to be in the DSM so it's not that off of an idea to understand that genes turned off due to trauma create a person who can't see themselves as a full man and therefore needs to find another man to love or vice versa. The way I've heard it discussed is that it's a type of searching for the father for gay people that they always wanted. Or if a woman searching for the mom they always wanted. It's often described as a psychological injury sustained in childhood at the hands of an absent parent.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Just talk to God. Like a friend - every day. After a few weeks you may have some answers and peace come to you…that’s your answer.

I spoke to god every day of my life for 50 years and never found peace or answers. That was my answer...I don't believe there was anyone listening and I'm sorry I wasted all that time.

People that "think" they are "talking to god" or that he is talking to them, are just convincing themselves of something that they WANT to be true.

I didn't have to convince myself. God reached out to me and I had nothing to do with it.

Hmmm. I wonder why God "reache[s] out" to some people and not others? Seems very arbitrary. Like in the OT, reaching out to one particular family in the desert of Iraq. Well, God moves in mysterious ways that's for sure.

No one can understand God's ways, that's for sure. And how could we, when we are talking about God? It is like expecting 2 dimensional creatures to understand the ways of the 3D world, or those who see in black and white what it's like to see in colors, except all that times a million. If you expect to understand exactly how God works before believing, you are misguided because no one will ever accomplish that in this life. Our brains are incapable of it, and I would be suspicious of any religion that claims otherwise.

We are not all destined to be the same or to have the same relationship with God. Here are the words of St. Therese of Lisieux (little flower):

Jesus has been gracious enough to teach me a lesson about the mystery of the differences in souls, simply by holding up to my eyes, the book of nature. I understood how all the flowers God created are beautiful- how the splendor of the rose and the whiteness of the lily do not take away from the perfume of the violet or the simplicity of the daisy. I understood that if all flowers wanted to be roses, nature would lose her springtime beauty, and the fields would no longer be decked out with little wildflower.

And so it is in the world of souls… Jesus’ garden. He willed to create great souls comparable to lilies and roses, but he created small ones as well… and these must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give joy to God’s glances, when he looks down at His feet. Perfection consists in doing God’s will… in being what He would have us be.

JUST AS THE sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul.

She lived less than 25 years in total and lived at home and then at a convent. She didn't really venture out into the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am asking this question after reading a previous post about people being depressed because they don't have religion in their lives. I am an atheist in my 40s, although I considered myself Christian until my early 20's. However with life and experience I find it impossible to believe in a 'God' and especially anything written in the Bible. It all seems totally unbelievable to me and I hate the way it has given people reasons to discriminate against LGBTQ communities.

I struggle on and off with depression and sometimes I wished I did have a faith to comfort me. It is very easy for people to say you should turn to Jesus etc, but to me it is like believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

I think God is the regulation our desires that take from others or that deplete ourselves unnecessarily. I think God is showing ourselves and others love. Love and Discipline with regards to human natural instincs. Basically regulation of natural instincts and living a life of love for ourselves and others despite the world's hardships.

I personally find that people who are LGBTQ are dealing with something internally genetic that has been off perhaps for generations due to trauma. I think it's their reality but I think there is more to it that is neurological. Which is why you see so much depression and anxiety and other disorders due to this. It's not just the world. It's kind of finding their purpose in the world and somehow becoming whole themselves. I don't think it's particularly natural for people to not want to reproduce since it's a basic need. I feel the same way about single people that are single for their whole lives. Neither is a problem but I think because they don't reproduce, it's harder to find this purpose and when they do they are more stable.

This is the oddest take on God and also on LGBT people I've ever heard. You are so confused.

To you maybe. It's Jungian basically. God exists in our body and we manifest him. Also related to taoism and just current science and psychoanalytic research. God isn't real in that there is some external force we can't control nd that we are aiming at. We manifest God through ourselves. Through our thoughts and actions. We bring God into being by going beyond our animal instincts. That's what I'm basically writing about. Controlling our animal instincts in a way that allow humans to flourish and care for each other.

Homosexuality used to be in the DSM so it's not that off of an idea to understand that genes turned off due to trauma create a person who can't see themselves as a full man and therefore needs to find another man to love or vice versa. The way I've heard it discussed is that it's a type of searching for the father for gay people that they always wanted. Or if a woman searching for the mom they always wanted. It's often described as a psychological injury sustained in childhood at the hands of an absent parent.

Should have added my statement that you thought I was so confused on. I'm not confused. God is basically our conscience telling us right from wrong related to our survival instincts verses living in harmony with each other. There are all sorts of connections to love and discipline with religion. I'm just explaining the science behind it.

I think God is the regulation our desires that take from others or that deplete ourselves unnecessarily. I think God is showing ourselves and others love. Love and Discipline with regards to human natural instincts. Basically regulation of natural instincts and living a life of love for ourselves and others despite the world's hardships.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Postscript: I am a big fan of humility. I cannot prove my side, and you cannot prove your side.

If G-d wanted His existence to be provable, He could easily make it so, as in the Bible. Why doesn't He?

I have a number of theories on the topic, but mainly it boils down to me being a mortal humans who will never have all the answers in life.

As for how being religious makes you happy, if you read my piece about travel with family being an atonement for sin, it's a meaningful reframe of life that often comes along with a sense of community.

God proved his existence to us in so many ways. Some people just chose to ignore the evidence.

Where is this evidence?

I see evidence God exists in the world He created.

Do you have evidence I don’t see God in the world He created? If you do, well, that’s news to me. You could not be more wrong.

Oh, I don’t doubt you believe you see it

I also don’t doubt that you don’t see the presupposition of what you typed. That’s not how evidence works. What couldn’t be given credit for the origin of the universe with that logic? I see the evidence of the Loch Ness monster in the world, the Loch Ness monster created. See?

We’ve had this conversation how many times?

Evidence is not needed nor could any evidence prove or disprove God.

We don’t have tests, measurements, tools, or scientific knowledge to measure God.

You are asking repeatedly for evidence, and I give the same answer consistently correct answer, over and over again.

Sorry you can’t come to terms with reality.

Reality is that the Bible tells us that God created the universe. Period. Since the beginning of time, man has been using science to try to discover HOW that was done.

The two are not in conflict.

I'm afraid they are because humans wrote the Bible. And science doesn't presuppose a supernatural entity with divine powers created the universe. So they very much are in conflict.

Humans created science. If humans created the bible too, as you suggest, then the two can't possibly be in conflict.

alrighty then, No sense arguing with you!

Why would you come to the thread that asks people how did they found God if they don't believe? This thread addresses only people who found the God. Why would you insert yourself when you clearly don't believe in God? There are thousand other threads where you can go and find millions of atheists who share your values.

In this forum, there seems to be a lot of atheistic evangelizing in an attempt to pull people away from Christianity or faith in general. I find it odd because when I was an atheist, which was over two decades and for most of my adult life, I still recognized how precious it was to have faith and hope in something beyond this world, I just didn't have it. I would not have tried to persuade others in any direction regarding faith, or hang out in religion forums arguing about a God I didn't believe in. This makes me think those who are here are desperately seeking God and trying to fill the void created by the absence of God.

Atheists don't evangelize -- that's what Christians do. Not even other religions evangelize (e.g., Jews)

Many atheists were once religious themselves and know from their experience that no one forced them to leave religion. They did it on their own. No evangelizing.

Oh, please, read other forums where atheists bashing Christians. They may not call it evangelization, but they clearly promote the false narrative of Christianity, and their hate and despice of Christian people.

I don’t think most atheists care; but what we have here on this forum are anti-theists.



"I don't believe leprechauns exist"

and

"I believe leprechauns don't exist"

As always, in any kind of discussion the problem is that people have different definitions for the same word, in this case "believe" (verb) and "belief" (noun).

In order for the difference to make sense, let's agree on the following definitions:

BELIEVE (verb) - ((a)): to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took> ((b)): to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>

ASSUME/SUPPOSE (verb) - to lay down tentatively as a hypothesis, assumption, or proposal <suppose a fire broke out> <suppose you bring the salad>

Example:

You are a miner trapped in a mine without any TV, radio, computer, etc.

Someone who's also in the mine says to you: "There is a rescue crew on the way".

Do you believe this person?

Theist: "I believe you. I'm sure they are coming.”
Atheist: "We were both trapped in this mine, I don't see any way you could know what's outside, so I don't believe you. I'm not saying you can't be correct. But I will assume there's no rescue crew and act accordingly."

Anti-theist: "I'm sure you're wrong. There will never be any rescue crew."

Agnostic is not an alternative to the above three. Agnostic says: "There is no way of knowing." <-- this doesn't tell you anything about what the person BELIEVES or ASSUMES

[Anonymous]

According to your example the Theist is going to have the best restful sleep.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Postscript: I am a big fan of humility. I cannot prove my side, and you cannot prove your side.

If G-d wanted His existence to be provable, He could easily make it so, as in the Bible. Why doesn't He?

I have a number of theories on the topic, but mainly it boils down to me being a mortal humans who will never have all the answers in life.

As for how being religious makes you happy, if you read my piece about travel with family being an atonement for sin, it's a meaningful reframe of life that often comes along with a sense of community.

God proved his existence to us in so many ways. Some people just chose to ignore the evidence.

Where is this evidence?

I see evidence God exists in the world He created.

Do you have evidence I don’t see God in the world He created? If you do, well, that’s news to me. You could not be more wrong.

Oh, I don’t doubt you believe you see it

I also don’t doubt that you don’t see the presupposition of what you typed. That’s not how evidence works. What couldn’t be given credit for the origin of the universe with that logic? I see the evidence of the Loch Ness monster in the world, the Loch Ness monster created. See?

We’ve had this conversation how many times?

Evidence is not needed nor could any evidence prove or disprove God.

We don’t have tests, measurements, tools, or scientific knowledge to measure God.

You are asking repeatedly for evidence, and I give the same answer consistently correct answer, over and over again.

Sorry you can’t come to terms with reality.

Reality is that the Bible tells us that God created the universe. Period. Since the beginning of time, man has been using science to try to discover HOW that was done.

The two are not in conflict.

I'm afraid they are because humans wrote the Bible. And science doesn't presuppose a supernatural entity with divine powers created the universe. So they very much are in conflict.

Humans created science. If humans created the bible too, as you suggest, then the two can't possibly be in conflict.

alrighty then, No sense arguing with you!

Why would you come to the thread that asks people how did they found God if they don't believe? This thread addresses only people who found the God. Why would you insert yourself when you clearly don't believe in God? There are thousand other threads where you can go and find millions of atheists who share your values.

In this forum, there seems to be a lot of atheistic evangelizing in an attempt to pull people away from Christianity or faith in general. I find it odd because when I was an atheist, which was over two decades and for most of my adult life, I still recognized how precious it was to have faith and hope in something beyond this world, I just didn't have it. I would not have tried to persuade others in any direction regarding faith, or hang out in religion forums arguing about a God I didn't believe in. This makes me think those who are here are desperately seeking God and trying to fill the void created by the absence of God.

Atheists don't evangelize -- that's what Christians do. Not even other religions evangelize (e.g., Jews)

Many atheists were once religious themselves and know from their experience that no one forced them to leave religion. They did it on their own. No evangelizing.

Oh, please, read other forums where atheists bashing Christians. They may not call it evangelization, but they clearly promote the false narrative of Christianity, and their hate and despice of Christian people.

I don’t think most atheists care; but what we have here on this forum are anti-theists.



"I don't believe leprechauns exist"

and

"I believe leprechauns don't exist"

As always, in any kind of discussion the problem is that people have different definitions for the same word, in this case "believe" (verb) and "belief" (noun).

In order for the difference to make sense, let's agree on the following definitions:

BELIEVE (verb) - ((a)): to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took> ((b)): to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>

ASSUME/SUPPOSE (verb) - to lay down tentatively as a hypothesis, assumption, or proposal <suppose a fire broke out> <suppose you bring the salad>

Example:

You are a miner trapped in a mine without any TV, radio, computer, etc.

Someone who's also in the mine says to you: "There is a rescue crew on the way".

Do you believe this person?

Theist: "I believe you. I'm sure they are coming.”
Atheist: "We were both trapped in this mine, I don't see any way you could know what's outside, so I don't believe you. I'm not saying you can't be correct. But I will assume there's no rescue crew and act accordingly."

Anti-theist: "I'm sure you're wrong. There will never be any rescue crew."

Agnostic is not an alternative to the above three. Agnostic says: "There is no way of knowing." <-- this doesn't tell you anything about what the person BELIEVES or ASSUMES

And here, folks, we have a lesson in Cherry Picking 101. None of the hateful snark that characterizes so many atheist posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just talk to God. Like a friend - every day. After a few weeks you may have some answers and peace come to you…that’s your answer.

I spoke to god every day of my life for 50 years and never found peace or answers. That was my answer...I don't believe there was anyone listening and I'm sorry I wasted all that time.

People that "think" they are "talking to god" or that he is talking to them, are just convincing themselves of something that they WANT to be true.

I didn't have to convince myself. God reached out to me and I had nothing to do with it.

Hmmm. I wonder why God "reache[s] out" to some people and not others? Seems very arbitrary. Like in the OT, reaching out to one particular family in the desert of Iraq. Well, God moves in mysterious ways that's for sure.

No one can understand God's ways, that's for sure. And how could we, when we are talking about God? It is like expecting 2 dimensional creatures to understand the ways of the 3D world, or those who see in black and white what it's like to see in colors, except all that times a million. If you expect to understand exactly how God works before believing, you are misguided because no one will ever accomplish that in this life. Our brains are incapable of it, and I would be suspicious of any religion that claims otherwise.

We are not all destined to be the same or to have the same relationship with God. Here are the words of St. Therese of Lisieux (little flower):

Jesus has been gracious enough to teach me a lesson about the mystery of the differences in souls, simply by holding up to my eyes, the book of nature. I understood how all the flowers God created are beautiful- how the splendor of the rose and the whiteness of the lily do not take away from the perfume of the violet or the simplicity of the daisy. I understood that if all flowers wanted to be roses, nature would lose her springtime beauty, and the fields would no longer be decked out with little wildflower.

And so it is in the world of souls… Jesus’ garden. He willed to create great souls comparable to lilies and roses, but he created small ones as well… and these must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give joy to God’s glances, when he looks down at His feet. Perfection consists in doing God’s will… in being what He would have us be.

JUST AS THE sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul.

She lived less than 25 years in total and lived at home and then at a convent. She didn't really venture out into the world.

And she managed to become one of the most popular saints of all time. So your point is?... that people need to do great things and experience lots of worldly glory in order to be great and have anything to offer? In fact, that is exactly what Christianity argues against. That God loves every human with an everlasting love, regardless of human accomplishments and circumstances, and that anyone can do things in their capacity to please and honor God.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I haven't read this whole thread, but OP, if you are still here, I would recommend watching some videos by Bishop Robert Barron. He has a lot of short clips that address some of the fundamental arguments (from logic and science) for the existence of God and he has a very approachable way of explaining these concepts. As a convert to Catholicism myself, I find that most people who don't believe in God actually don't believe some false God they made up in their mind. The absolute first question to answer is what we mean by God. The why we believe and what we owe to God questions are somewhat naturally answered once we understand who God is (and what He is not). So my advice is to focus on that fundamental question.

My other advice is to keep an open mind. God cannot come into your heart if you keep is sealed. You have to at least entertain the possibility that God exists, otherwise, don't bother down this path. But I think you are already there because you sense a dissatisfaction with the way things are. My own spiritual journey started from that same feeling, and that was enough of an opening to let God in, despite my atheist upbringing. As I started to read more theistic readings (I didn't start with Christianity but more general theism), i had all this skepticism (I am a lawyer by trade so the skepticism was endless). But I remember the moment vividly when I just suspended my skepticism and pretended that God did exist (literally just a moment "let me pretend there is a God"). Everything suddenly sense and all the pieces of my worldview that clashed or seem disjointed all came together once I looked at them through the theistic lens. Not saying that it will happen for you like this, but just that everyone will have their own unique/personal ah ha moments and to be open to them.

Why did you choose Catholicism Vs other Christian denominations ?

Once I was convinced there is a God, i started exploring different theistic religions. At first, i attended a Universalist Unitarian church because that was all I could handle. But then as I kept reading, that church was no longer enough (they tend to stay very surfacy about loving everyone and doing good but shies away from deeper questions). I read up on Islam but its view of God was not "that which nothing greater can be thought" imo, so I rejected that. I was really hung up on the idea of Jesus, so it took me a while to come to terms with Christianity as a possibility, but once I did, i started attending protestant churches simply out of accessibility. I found one I really liked (very intellectual approach to the Bible), but some reason, I just kept feeling like I had to keep searching. One day I walked into a Catholic Mass and while I was so confused by all the standing, kneeling, recitations, I felt a very deep sense of peace. Then I started researching Catholicism and everything I read just clicked and felt right (the theology not necessarily all the social teachings, which took more time). I remember reading the Catechism, which most people would probably find a dry read, and found it just so engaging haha!

I appreciate the depth of Catholicism, its comfort with and embrace of ambiguity and mystery. I think on the logic side, I find Protestantism to be unsustainable. In my exploration of protestant churches, some churches were so different from each other as to be almost separate religions. That surely cannot be how God intends for his church to be, so it was more easy for me to believe that Matthew 16:18 meant that God established one church and will stand by her to the end. Either that or we are all screwed imho, because otherwise we are just following our own egos by establishing 30,000 different churches.

I wonder why God let all those other religions exist, after establishing the one true religion of Roman Catholicism.

Because God is a huge believer in free will.

And not all religions need to be a zero sum game against Christianity. Most try to grasp at as much of the truth as possible, some getting closer than others, and that is why they hold appeal. Personally, when I learn about other religions, i try to focus on what they got right and appreciate those things, rather than the things that contradict Christianity. And to OP's original point, you can possibly adopt many religions/faiths if your goal is to live a happier life versus the status quo of not believing anything. Not necessarily because those faiths are entirely right, but because they may hold bits of truth, such as helping you focus on the deeper meanings in life or meditation to help calm and focus on the present, and those truths/practices can place you closer to God whether you recognize Him or not.

However, if your search is for the fullness of truth, Christianity (specifically Catholicism) is only religion worthy of belief. We're not even talking whether it's true or not, but just intellectually speaking, worthy of us. This is coming from someone who did not grow up in the West and who had quite the negative view of Christianity into my early 20s.

This kind of arrogance is another reason why Catholicism is not going to be my path to finding God/spirituality. This heavy handed close mindedness is a complete turn off for me. .

Why is it arrogance? I know Truth is unpopular these days and the only PC answer is everyone is entitled to their own Truths, but logically, you know that it's either there is no meaning whatsoever to the world, life OR there is one true religion right? Multiple religions cannot all be exactly right. Christianity is not mine. It is open to everyone. I fail to see the arrogance. It is rather ego and fear that prevents people from openly exploring Christianity.

Name any religions that can challenge Christianity.

NP
Challenge in what way ?
I grew up Christian but now I choose Buddhism/ Taoism and I accept Jesus’s moral and ethical teaching.
Why do Christians and Moslems want to convert people ?
That’s why I like Judaism, Hinduism , Buddhism and Taoism better.
Live and let live kind of religion.

Buddhism is agnostic on the question of a God and therefore is not even a religion, strictly speaking.  I have great respect for Buddhism but it occupies a different realm vs Christianity.  It doesn't seek to answer the fundamental questions of religion.

Taoism is rather incoherent and includes many deities.  Hinduism falls under the same camp. Polytheistic religions don't pass the smell test because on a fundamental level, polytheism implies the gods are limited and therefore cannot be God.

Islam focuses on the grandness of God and subservience to God but lacks the personal relationship with God that Christianity offers through Jesus Christ.  I won't speak to Judaism because as a Christian, I see one as the fulfillment of another. Go ahead and believe in Judaism but the Jewish God is every bit as demanding as the Christian God, because they are the same (the whole old testament theme is about not worshipping other gods and idols, so Judaism is not a believe whatever you want, everything is equal religion).

Ultimately I think most people recognize that the deepest meaning of human life and fulfillment lies in love. And the highest form of love we experience in this world is a deep and personal love. We happily spend a lifetime getting to know those we love and growing with them. If we are capable of this, then by definition, our creator is capable of this (and indeed, it is more accurate to say we are capable of this precisely because God is capable of this and made us in his own image).  Therefore, if your relationship with your dog is more personal and intimate than your relationship with the god of your religion, then your religion is lacking and you should keep seeking. Christianity is the only religion that even tries to claim an intensely personal relationship with the creator.  Christianity is the only religion that makes the absurd claim that the creator of everything, instead of staying high and mighty in the heavens watching us, became one of his creations in order to save them and to invite them into that personal relationship. I wish people weren't so jaded with Christianity and to really see it with fresh eyes, because Christian claims are equally shocking and humbling.  

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Postscript: I am a big fan of humility. I cannot prove my side, and you cannot prove your side.

If G-d wanted His existence to be provable, He could easily make it so, as in the Bible. Why doesn't He?

I have a number of theories on the topic, but mainly it boils down to me being a mortal humans who will never have all the answers in life.

As for how being religious makes you happy, if you read my piece about travel with family being an atonement for sin, it's a meaningful reframe of life that often comes along with a sense of community.

God proved his existence to us in so many ways. Some people just chose to ignore the evidence.

Where is this evidence?

I see evidence God exists in the world He created.

Do you have evidence I don’t see God in the world He created? If you do, well, that’s news to me. You could not be more wrong.

Oh, I don’t doubt you believe you see it

I also don’t doubt that you don’t see the presupposition of what you typed. That’s not how evidence works. What couldn’t be given credit for the origin of the universe with that logic? I see the evidence of the Loch Ness monster in the world, the Loch Ness monster created. See?

We’ve had this conversation how many times?

Evidence is not needed nor could any evidence prove or disprove God.

We don’t have tests, measurements, tools, or scientific knowledge to measure God.

You are asking repeatedly for evidence, and I give the same answer consistently correct answer, over and over again.

Sorry you can’t come to terms with reality.

Reality is that the Bible tells us that God created the universe. Period. Since the beginning of time, man has been using science to try to discover HOW that was done.

The two are not in conflict.

I'm afraid they are because humans wrote the Bible. And science doesn't presuppose a supernatural entity with divine powers created the universe. So they very much are in conflict.

Humans created science. If humans created the bible too, as you suggest, then the two can't possibly be in conflict.

alrighty then, No sense arguing with you!

Why would you come to the thread that asks people how did they found God if they don't believe? This thread addresses only people who found the God. Why would you insert yourself when you clearly don't believe in God? There are thousand other threads where you can go and find millions of atheists who share your values.

In this forum, there seems to be a lot of atheistic evangelizing in an attempt to pull people away from Christianity or faith in general. I find it odd because when I was an atheist, which was over two decades and for most of my adult life, I still recognized how precious it was to have faith and hope in something beyond this world, I just didn't have it. I would not have tried to persuade others in any direction regarding faith, or hang out in religion forums arguing about a God I didn't believe in. This makes me think those who are here are desperately seeking God and trying to fill the void created by the absence of God.

Atheists don't evangelize -- that's what Christians do. Not even other religions evangelize (e.g., Jews)

Many atheists were once religious themselves and know from their experience that no one forced them to leave religion. They did it on their own. No evangelizing.

Oh, please, read other forums where atheists bashing Christians. They may not call it evangelization, but they clearly promote the false narrative of Christianity, and their hate and despice of Christian people.

I don’t think most atheists care; but what we have here on this forum are anti-theists.



"I don't believe leprechauns exist"

and

"I believe leprechauns don't exist"

As always, in any kind of discussion the problem is that people have different definitions for the same word, in this case "believe" (verb) and "belief" (noun).

In order for the difference to make sense, let's agree on the following definitions:

BELIEVE (verb) - ((a)): to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took> ((b)): to accept the word or evidence of <I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>

ASSUME/SUPPOSE (verb) - to lay down tentatively as a hypothesis, assumption, or proposal <suppose a fire broke out> <suppose you bring the salad>

Example:

You are a miner trapped in a mine without any TV, radio, computer, etc.

Someone who's also in the mine says to you: "There is a rescue crew on the way".

Do you believe this person?

Theist: "I believe you. I'm sure they are coming.”
Atheist: "We were both trapped in this mine, I don't see any way you could know what's outside, so I don't believe you. I'm not saying you can't be correct. But I will assume there's no rescue crew and act accordingly."

Anti-theist: "I'm sure you're wrong. There will never be any rescue crew."

Agnostic is not an alternative to the above three. Agnostic says: "There is no way of knowing." <-- this doesn't tell you anything about what the person BELIEVES or ASSUMES

I agree there is a distinction between atheists and so called anti-theists. Theoretically, the religion posts are only for the atheists and the agnostics as no amount of words or logic or evidence can convince the anti-theist. However, there is a fine line between love and hate and those anti-theists are perhaps closer to God than they realize.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I haven't read this whole thread, but OP, if you are still here, I would recommend watching some videos by Bishop Robert Barron. He has a lot of short clips that address some of the fundamental arguments (from logic and science) for the existence of God and he has a very approachable way of explaining these concepts. As a convert to Catholicism myself, I find that most people who don't believe in God actually don't believe some false God they made up in their mind. The absolute first question to answer is what we mean by God. The why we believe and what we owe to God questions are somewhat naturally answered once we understand who God is (and what He is not). So my advice is to focus on that fundamental question.

My other advice is to keep an open mind. God cannot come into your heart if you keep is sealed. You have to at least entertain the possibility that God exists, otherwise, don't bother down this path. But I think you are already there because you sense a dissatisfaction with the way things are. My own spiritual journey started from that same feeling, and that was enough of an opening to let God in, despite my atheist upbringing. As I started to read more theistic readings (I didn't start with Christianity but more general theism), i had all this skepticism (I am a lawyer by trade so the skepticism was endless). But I remember the moment vividly when I just suspended my skepticism and pretended that God did exist (literally just a moment "let me pretend there is a God"). Everything suddenly sense and all the pieces of my worldview that clashed or seem disjointed all came together once I looked at them through the theistic lens. Not saying that it will happen for you like this, but just that everyone will have their own unique/personal ah ha moments and to be open to them.

Why did you choose Catholicism Vs other Christian denominations ?

Once I was convinced there is a God, i started exploring different theistic religions. At first, i attended a Universalist Unitarian church because that was all I could handle. But then as I kept reading, that church was no longer enough (they tend to stay very surfacy about loving everyone and doing good but shies away from deeper questions). I read up on Islam but its view of God was not "that which nothing greater can be thought" imo, so I rejected that. I was really hung up on the idea of Jesus, so it took me a while to come to terms with Christianity as a possibility, but once I did, i started attending protestant churches simply out of accessibility. I found one I really liked (very intellectual approach to the Bible), but some reason, I just kept feeling like I had to keep searching. One day I walked into a Catholic Mass and while I was so confused by all the standing, kneeling, recitations, I felt a very deep sense of peace. Then I started researching Catholicism and everything I read just clicked and felt right (the theology not necessarily all the social teachings, which took more time). I remember reading the Catechism, which most people would probably find a dry read, and found it just so engaging haha!

I appreciate the depth of Catholicism, its comfort with and embrace of ambiguity and mystery. I think on the logic side, I find Protestantism to be unsustainable. In my exploration of protestant churches, some churches were so different from each other as to be almost separate religions. That surely cannot be how God intends for his church to be, so it was more easy for me to believe that Matthew 16:18 meant that God established one church and will stand by her to the end. Either that or we are all screwed imho, because otherwise we are just following our own egos by establishing 30,000 different churches.

I wonder why God let all those other religions exist, after establishing the one true religion of Roman Catholicism.

Because God is a huge believer in free will.

And not all religions need to be a zero sum game against Christianity. Most try to grasp at as much of the truth as possible, some getting closer than others, and that is why they hold appeal. Personally, when I learn about other religions, i try to focus on what they got right and appreciate those things, rather than the things that contradict Christianity. And to OP's original point, you can possibly adopt many religions/faiths if your goal is to live a happier life versus the status quo of not believing anything. Not necessarily because those faiths are entirely right, but because they may hold bits of truth, such as helping you focus on the deeper meanings in life or meditation to help calm and focus on the present, and those truths/practices can place you closer to God whether you recognize Him or not.

However, if your search is for the fullness of truth, Christianity (specifically Catholicism) is only religion worthy of belief. We're not even talking whether it's true or not, but just intellectually speaking, worthy of us. This is coming from someone who did not grow up in the West and who had quite the negative view of Christianity into my early 20s.

This kind of arrogance is another reason why Catholicism is not going to be my path to finding God/spirituality. This heavy handed close mindedness is a complete turn off for me. .

Why is it arrogance? I know Truth is unpopular these days and the only PC answer is everyone is entitled to their own Truths, but logically, you know that it's either there is no meaning whatsoever to the world, life OR there is one true religion right? Multiple religions cannot all be exactly right. Christianity is not mine. It is open to everyone. I fail to see the arrogance. It is rather ego and fear that prevents people from openly exploring Christianity.

Name any religions that can challenge Christianity.

NP
Challenge in what way ?
I grew up Christian but now I choose Buddhism/ Taoism and I accept Jesus’s moral and ethical teaching.
Why do Christians and Moslems want to convert people ?
That’s why I like Judaism, Hinduism , Buddhism and Taoism better.
Live and let live kind of religion.

Buddhism is agnostic on the question of a God and therefore is not even a religion, strictly speaking.  I have great respect for Buddhism but it occupies a different realm vs Christianity.  It doesn't seek to answer the fundamental questions of religion.

Taoism is rather incoherent and includes many deities.  Hinduism falls under the same camp. Polytheistic religions don't pass the smell test because on a fundamental level, polytheism implies the gods are limited and therefore cannot be God.

Islam focuses on the grandness of God and subservience to God but lacks the personal relationship with God that Christianity offers through Jesus Christ.  I won't speak to Judaism because as a Christian, I see one as the fulfillment of another. Go ahead and believe in Judaism but the Jewish God is every bit as demanding as the Christian God, because they are the same (the whole old testament theme is about not worshipping other gods and idols, so Judaism is not a believe whatever you want, everything is equal religion).

Ultimately I think most people recognize that the deepest meaning of human life and fulfillment lies in love. And the highest form of love we experience in this world is a deep and personal love. We happily spend a lifetime getting to know those we love and growing with them. If we are capable of this, then by definition, our creator is capable of this (and indeed, it is more accurate to say we are capable of this precisely because God is capable of this and made us in his own image).  Therefore, if your relationship with your dog is more personal and intimate than your relationship with the god of your religion, then your religion is lacking and you should keep seeking. Christianity is the only religion that even tries to claim an intensely personal relationship with the creator.  Christianity is the only religion that makes the absurd claim that the creator of everything, instead of staying high and mighty in the heavens watching us, became one of his creations in order to save them and to invite them into that personal relationship. I wish people weren't so jaded with Christianity and to really see it with fresh eyes, because Christian claims are equally shocking and humbling.  

Please, read Taoism Short scripture Tao te Ching before you call it incoherent you can find it for free online.

[Anonymous]

Look OP, if you are still here, or anyone else searching, the fundamental question is: do you even believe in the possibility of a correct answer, of an objective Truth? Because if you won't even allow for that possibility (maybe because you can't stand the thought of hurting other people's sensibilities because it would imply others are wrong), then you are not ready for this journey. Focus on that fundamental issue first. People get through this hump in varying ways. For some, it might be that they get there intellectually or logically. For others, it might be precipitated by an existential crisis that humbles them enough to say anything's possible. But that is just based on my observations. God works in mysterious ways and there are certainly no limits to how he breaks down people's walls. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read this whole thread, but OP, if you are still here, I would recommend watching some videos by Bishop Robert Barron. He has a lot of short clips that address some of the fundamental arguments (from logic and science) for the existence of God and he has a very approachable way of explaining these concepts. As a convert to Catholicism myself, I find that most people who don't believe in God actually don't believe some false God they made up in their mind. The absolute first question to answer is what we mean by God. The why we believe and what we owe to God questions are somewhat naturally answered once we understand who God is (and what He is not). So my advice is to focus on that fundamental question.

My other advice is to keep an open mind. God cannot come into your heart if you keep is sealed. You have to at least entertain the possibility that God exists, otherwise, don't bother down this path. But I think you are already there because you sense a dissatisfaction with the way things are. My own spiritual journey started from that same feeling, and that was enough of an opening to let God in, despite my atheist upbringing. As I started to read more theistic readings (I didn't start with Christianity but more general theism), i had all this skepticism (I am a lawyer by trade so the skepticism was endless). But I remember the moment vividly when I just suspended my skepticism and pretended that God did exist (literally just a moment "let me pretend there is a God"). Everything suddenly sense and all the pieces of my worldview that clashed or seem disjointed all came together once I looked at them through the theistic lens. Not saying that it will happen for you like this, but just that everyone will have their own unique/personal ah ha moments and to be open to them.

Why did you choose Catholicism Vs other Christian denominations ?

Once I was convinced there is a God, i started exploring different theistic religions. At first, i attended a Universalist Unitarian church because that was all I could handle. But then as I kept reading, that church was no longer enough (they tend to stay very surfacy about loving everyone and doing good but shies away from deeper questions). I read up on Islam but its view of God was not "that which nothing greater can be thought" imo, so I rejected that. I was really hung up on the idea of Jesus, so it took me a while to come to terms with Christianity as a possibility, but once I did, i started attending protestant churches simply out of accessibility. I found one I really liked (very intellectual approach to the Bible), but some reason, I just kept feeling like I had to keep searching. One day I walked into a Catholic Mass and while I was so confused by all the standing, kneeling, recitations, I felt a very deep sense of peace. Then I started researching Catholicism and everything I read just clicked and felt right (the theology not necessarily all the social teachings, which took more time). I remember reading the Catechism, which most people would probably find a dry read, and found it just so engaging haha!

I appreciate the depth of Catholicism, its comfort with and embrace of ambiguity and mystery. I think on the logic side, I find Protestantism to be unsustainable. In my exploration of protestant churches, some churches were so different from each other as to be almost separate religions. That surely cannot be how God intends for his church to be, so it was more easy for me to believe that Matthew 16:18 meant that God established one church and will stand by her to the end. Either that or we are all screwed imho, because otherwise we are just following our own egos by establishing 30,000 different churches.

I wonder why God let all those other religions exist, after establishing the one true religion of Roman Catholicism.

Because God is a huge believer in free will.

And not all religions need to be a zero sum game against Christianity. Most try to grasp at as much of the truth as possible, some getting closer than others, and that is why they hold appeal. Personally, when I learn about other religions, i try to focus on what they got right and appreciate those things, rather than the things that contradict Christianity. And to OP's original point, you can possibly adopt many religions/faiths if your goal is to live a happier life versus the status quo of not believing anything. Not necessarily because those faiths are entirely right, but because they may hold bits of truth, such as helping you focus on the deeper meanings in life or meditation to help calm and focus on the present, and those truths/practices can place you closer to God whether you recognize Him or not.

However, if your search is for the fullness of truth, Christianity (specifically Catholicism) is only religion worthy of belief. We're not even talking whether it's true or not, but just intellectually speaking, worthy of us. This is coming from someone who did not grow up in the West and who had quite the negative view of Christianity into my early 20s.

This kind of arrogance is another reason why Catholicism is not going to be my path to finding God/spirituality. This heavy handed close mindedness is a complete turn off for me. .

Why is it arrogance? I know Truth is unpopular these days and the only PC answer is everyone is entitled to their own Truths, but logically, you know that it's either there is no meaning whatsoever to the world, life OR there is one true religion right? Multiple religions cannot all be exactly right. Christianity is not mine. It is open to everyone. I fail to see the arrogance. It is rather ego and fear that prevents people from openly exploring Christianity.

Name any religions that can challenge Christianity.

NP
Challenge in what way ?
I grew up Christian but now I choose Buddhism/ Taoism and I accept Jesus’s moral and ethical teaching.
Why do Christians and Moslems want to convert people ?
That’s why I like Judaism, Hinduism , Buddhism and Taoism better.
Live and let live kind of religion.

Buddhism is agnostic on the question of a God and therefore is not even a religion, strictly speaking.  I have great respect for Buddhism but it occupies a different realm vs Christianity.  It doesn't seek to answer the fundamental questions of religion.

Taoism is rather incoherent and includes many deities.  Hinduism falls under the same camp. Polytheistic religions don't pass the smell test because on a fundamental level, polytheism implies the gods are limited and therefore cannot be God.

Islam focuses on the grandness of God and subservience to God but lacks the personal relationship with God that Christianity offers through Jesus Christ.  I won't speak to Judaism because as a Christian, I see one as the fulfillment of another. Go ahead and believe in Judaism but the Jewish God is every bit as demanding as the Christian God, because they are the same (the whole old testament theme is about not worshipping other gods and idols, so Judaism is not a believe whatever you want, everything is equal religion).

Ultimately I think most people recognize that the deepest meaning of human life and fulfillment lies in love. And the highest form of love we experience in this world is a deep and personal love. We happily spend a lifetime getting to know those we love and growing with them. If we are capable of this, then by definition, our creator is capable of this (and indeed, it is more accurate to say we are capable of this precisely because God is capable of this and made us in his own image).  Therefore, if your relationship with your dog is more personal and intimate than your relationship with the god of your religion, then your religion is lacking and you should keep seeking. Christianity is the only religion that even tries to claim an intensely personal relationship with the creator.  Christianity is the only religion that makes the absurd claim that the creator of everything, instead of staying high and mighty in the heavens watching us, became one of his creations in order to save them and to invite them into that personal relationship. I wish people weren't so jaded with Christianity and to really see it with fresh eyes, because Christian claims are equally shocking and humbling.  

Please, read Taoism Short scripture Tao te Ching before you call it incoherent you can find it for free online.

I have read it as I took theology classes in college. If it's so coherent, please explain Daoism's coherent worldview and theology. The CCP loves and promotes Daoism because it is so meaningless and isn't a threat to anyone because it doesn't stand for anything. Totalitarian govt with no freedom of anything? Sure, that's fine. Slavery? Sure why not. Genocide (of Uyghurs)? Got nothing to say. Is that the "religion" you claim to rival Christianity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look OP, if you are still here, or anyone else searching, the fundamental question is: do you even believe in the possibility of a correct answer, of an objective Truth? Because if you won't even allow for that possibility (maybe because you can't stand the thought of hurting other people's sensibilities because it would imply others are wrong), then you are not ready for this journey. Focus on that fundamental issue first. People get through this hump in varying ways. For some, it might be that they get there intellectually or logically. For others, it might be precipitated by an existential crisis that humbles them enough to say anything's possible. But that is just based on my observations. God works in mysterious ways and there are certainly no limits to how he breaks down people's walls. Good luck.

I don't think Christianity is my path to finding God, this thread has confirmed it. Some of the posts are lecturing and overbearing. I don't believe in the God of the Bible, that doesn't mean that there isn't a Higher power or I can't find my own Spirituality. I don't care if some of the Christians on here think I am wrong. There have been some helpful answers to my post but it has mainly been hijacked by one or two posters who seem intent in bullishly pushing Christianity and telling everyone else they are wrong. Pretty gross.