Talking about Santa

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

I’m not the historian, but many posts with non-religious origins were removed even though they were legit and very much relevant to the discussion. About Odin, shaman, the origin of Santa & gift giving in the US, Krampus, etc.

Someone just rejected Odin again.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/180/1096836.page#23886353

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

I have a similar background in the study of history to you and I had the same reaction; it's odd that a history Ph.D would either post or at a minimum defend arguments based on unsourced blogs and dumping large cut and paste jobs from similarly unsourced Wikipedia pages. I'm pretty familiar with the primary sources for Odin mythology for instance, and I don't see those blogs citing those sources (the Eddas, the Heimskringla, etc.). It's possible that stuff's there, it's been a while since I sat down and read them, but actual primary sources are convincing and a public library reciting stuff it got from a blog called "Sons of Vikings" (which in turn seems to have gotten it from other blogs) isn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

I’m not the historian, but many posts with non-religious origins were removed even though they were legit and very much relevant to the discussion. About Odin, shaman, the origin of Santa & gift giving in the US, Krampus, etc.

Someone just rejected Odin again.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/180/1096836.page#23886353

Shaman? What about shaman? You can't just toss out vague names and expect us to agree.

The Smithsonian (not your average blogger) says that "Krampus has nothing to do with Christianity." Also this: "A mangled, deranged face with bloodshot eyes tops a furry black body. Giant horns curl up from his head, displaying his half-goat, half-demon lineage." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

I’m not the historian, but many posts with non-religious origins were removed even though they were legit and very much relevant to the discussion. About Odin, shaman, the origin of Santa & gift giving in the US, Krampus, etc.

Someone just rejected Odin again.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/180/1096836.page#23886353

Shaman? What about shaman? You can't just toss out vague names and expect us to agree.

The Smithsonian (not your average blogger) says that "Krampus has nothing to do with Christianity." Also this: "A mangled, deranged face with bloodshot eyes tops a furry black body. Giant horns curl up from his head, displaying his half-goat, half-demon lineage." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/

Krampus was part of the inspiration for Santa’s nice/naughty list. I posted details but they were deleted. Feel free to google.

[Anonymous]

Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

[Anonymous]

Whatever the links or not to Odin, nobody made the connection to make Christianity more palatable as somebody above claimed.

The earliest European St. Nicholas was The Night Before Christmas in 1823, when Christianity was already the overwhelmingly dominant religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whatever the links or not to Odin, nobody made the connection to make Christianity more palatable as somebody above claimed.

The earliest European St. Nicholas was The Night Before Christmas in 1823, when Christianity was already the overwhelmingly dominant religion.

If anything, modern paganism is a more recent evection than the Christian St. Nicholas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whatever the links or not to Odin, nobody made the connection to make Christianity more palatable as somebody above claimed.

The earliest European St. Nicholas was The Night Before Christmas in 1823, when Christianity was already the overwhelmingly dominant religion.

If anything, modern paganism is a more recent evection than the Christian St. Nicholas.

* invention

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

No one is "rejecting possible non-Christian influences" they're asking for actual sources (like primary sources, not something you saw on the History Channel), and they're pointing out where the comparisons are flimsy. You seem to want to characterize this as something it isn't and engage in name calling rather than actually having a discussion about the questions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

You're gonna need to cite that. Sure, people have rejected skeezy blog cut and pastes, they've rejected Helios, and they've rejected influences from far-flung Mongolia. But nobody has rejected ALL non-Christian influences.

As has been said, Christians DON'T CARE. We know Santa is a myth. It's not like Santa is a fundamental article of faith or something.

Meanwhile, you haven't attempted to address modern paganism's pirating of old myths. Care to take a whack at that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

I’m not the historian, but many posts with non-religious origins were removed even though they were legit and very much relevant to the discussion. About Odin, shaman, the origin of Santa & gift giving in the US, Krampus, etc.

Someone just rejected Odin again.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/180/1096836.page#23886353

Shaman? What about shaman? You can't just toss out vague names and expect us to agree.

The Smithsonian (not your average blogger) says that "Krampus has nothing to do with Christianity." Also this: "A mangled, deranged face with bloodshot eyes tops a furry black body. Giant horns curl up from his head, displaying his half-goat, half-demon lineage." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/

Krampus was part of the inspiration for Santa’s nice/naughty list. I posted details but they were deleted. Feel free to google.

What was the "nice" part?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

No one is "rejecting possible non-Christian influences" they're asking for actual sources (like primary sources, not something you saw on the History Channel), and they're pointing out where the comparisons are flimsy. You seem to want to characterize this as something it isn't and engage in name calling rather than actually having a discussion about the questions.

I haven’t called anyone names.

Funny how random opinions/blogs are just fine for many, many posts in this forum. Some that get copied and pasted endlessly.

I post some legit sources (from researched books, etc) and now all of a sudden we need direct quotes from primary sources. LOL.