The White Lotus season 2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Ethan is actually gay and has feelings for Cameron, but he loves Harper although he’s not physically attracted to her.

I agree and said as much 30 or so pages back.

I just started watching the series and reading this thread. In the early episodes I felt that Ethan was irritated about Cameron’s flirting because he was jealous. He was uncomfortable with Cameron’s partying with hookers because he’s actually attracted to him. I think it will be revealed that Ethan and Cameron once had a fling back when they were college buddies. There was a “being inside you”
comment that Cam jokingly made to Ethan but maybe it wasn’t a joke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

Harper and Ethan are both angry and miserable. Cam and Daphne have a great love between them even though he’s flawed. They enjoy life.

Wow, I don't see it this way at all (DP, btw).

My feeling is that this is a snapshot in time of these two couples, and Ethan and Harper are in a period of turmoil and upheaval. It's clear they've been recently disconnected, that they (or for sure at least Harper) are struggling a bit to come to terms with their new wealth, and that they haven't been communicating well. There's also clearly a looming issue regarding kids that is linked to their lack of sex -- either they are not in agreement about wanting kids or there is something else going on because they aren't on the same page.But I wouldn't describe either of them as angry and miserable people generally, or even in their marriage. You see glimpses of a functional, positive relationship there. It may not look as sexy to others, but I relate more to the way Ethan and Harper will quickly kiss goodbye before parting than the way Cam and Daphne are all over each other. I relate to the side-by-side reading/working in bed coupled with some gossip and discussion. I sense that they have pretty similar politics and world outlooks, and that they like and respect each other. The attraction is an issue, especially Ethan toward Harper, but I anticipate it's not that he's unattracted -- there is something else going on.

Cameron and Daphne are different. There's obviously real affection but there's also a lot of artifice, I think. Especially on Daphne's side. She's a real cipher and you can tell in how different she is when she's alone with Harper (much lower energy, moodier, some anger in there too) that the hot, sexy, love bunny things she does with Cameron is not just who she is -- it's a version, but it's not the whole story. And meanwhile, watch the energy Cameron has with Daphne versus with Harper or with Lucia and Mia. It's the same energy. He's just a horny dude. He's more familiar with Daphne but the energy is the same -- I want you. The only time this shifted was when they talked about Daphne's emergency c-section. But even that was centered around Cameron's needs -- I want you, I can't lose you. I don't get that sense of mutual respect. Cameron is the center of their marriage. His needs. Daphne finds ways to meet her needs on the margins, but importantly, her needs are not met in or by the marriage, except insofar as it has facilitated motherhood.

I don't think either marriage is ideal, at all. But if I absolutely had to choose, I'd choose Ethan/Harper because I think with a basis of shared goals and mutual respect, you can work through a lot of stuff. I know I have in my marriage. What Daphne and Cameron has looks desirable in the moment -- all the lovey touching and compliments. But I think longterm I would not want to be in Daphne's position. It would eat me up. Sure, my husband desires me. But he desires everything. I don't find that dynamic remotely appealing.

I think this is kind of an oversimplification of the point. I'm not sure it is artifice between Daphne and Cam. I think with Daphne her eyes are open and you are right she is a cypher and is different when she's on her own and you can see there is more going on there then she lets on. But I do feel like she loves him and has simply organized her life so she has all her needs met. I do think that's accurate that Cam is all about himself, but I do think he cares about her feelings, when Daphne is upset with him he feels compelled to take action to address it (the wine tasting), when she's acting suspicious he goes out of his way to provide her assurances, when Lucia approaches him his anger is about how this will effect his wife. I think some of this is self preservation but I do think Daphne's happiness is important to him and that he does demonstrate that. I do not think he is the center of the marriage and that she is on the margins, but I do think that Daphne evens the scales when she sees that something has created an imbalance (ie, I will not be the cheated upon wife, but I will be the woman in a couple where both parties cheat). She actually I think to the contrary strives to ensure there is equity, even if Cameron isn't entirely aware of it. Which is why I think this might end with HER trying to seduce Ethan.

Harper and Ethan I think you are giving a very rosy impression to. Ethan does not communicate an he is carrying around a lot of dark anger. And he is taking it out on Harper by criticizing her and withholding emotional intimacy. They are better PEOPLE (connected to the world, care about other people, intellectually engaged) but I am not convinced Ethan is any better of a partner than Cameron. He gets to say that because he didn't cheat he did nothing wrong, when in fact he lied to her, he did get kissed, he took a bunch of drugs with h**kers, he became a gregarious engaged person, something Harper wants desperately from him, with these other people. And then again, lied to her. He decides she cheated on him with someone she clearly loathes and is just riding her about this and accusing her of hooking up with Cameron. Notably, she never actually accuses him of anything, just asks questions after finding the wrapper, even after seeing him talking to Lucia and Mia she just asks him not to gaslight her. He immediately asks her if she hooked up with Cameron though.

Longterm I would not want to be in either of these positions, but I'm actually not sure I would choose a ticking time bomb like Ethan who reads but treats me like crap over an out-in-the-open rogue who might cheat on me but actually loves me like Cameron. Not really any good choices there though.

You can call this a snapshot in time, but the lack of trust is more than a snapshot. That's a personality flaw.

I disagree generally with your read but am honestly disturbed by your characterization in the bolded. That is an extremely messed up dynamic to me, where Cameron trying to keep his cheating (with a paid escort) a secret is viewed as "caring about his wife's feelings." Or bribing/distracting her with a fun outing is viewed the same way. As a person in a marriage, I could never view that behavior so generously. I don't consider this situation to be emotional abuse, but the way you are describing it is line with how abusers justify their behavior to their victims -- I lied to protect you, look at all I do for you to make up for it, I know I'm flawed but see the good in me too, baby. Like just reading that made me actually more horrified by Daphne and Cameron's marriage. Yuck yuck yuck, no way. Call me old fashioned if you want, but I don't think here is anything Daphne can do to get her own needs met that would make up for that dynamic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Ethan is actually gay and has feelings for Cameron, but he loves Harper although he’s not physically attracted to her.

I agree and said as much 30 or so pages back.

I just started watching the series and reading this thread. In the early episodes I felt that Ethan was irritated about Cameron’s flirting because he was jealous. He was uncomfortable with Cameron’s partying with hookers because he’s actually attracted to him. I think it will be revealed that Ethan and Cameron once had a fling back when they were college buddies. There was a “being inside you”
comment that Cam jokingly made to Ethan but maybe it wasn’t a joke.

Ethan tried to date girls but Cam stole all of them. Cam calls Ethan the original incel. I think Ethan had a lot of rage around women and sex. He probably married Harper because it put little pressure on him to be affectionate, since she’s so stiff. He literally runs away to avoid intimacy. I think it comes crashing to a head when he’s confronted with these issues directly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

Harper and Ethan are both angry and miserable. Cam and Daphne have a great love between them even though he’s flawed. They enjoy life.

Wow, I don't see it this way at all (DP, btw).

My feeling is that this is a snapshot in time of these two couples, and Ethan and Harper are in a period of turmoil and upheaval. It's clear they've been recently disconnected, that they (or for sure at least Harper) are struggling a bit to come to terms with their new wealth, and that they haven't been communicating well. There's also clearly a looming issue regarding kids that is linked to their lack of sex -- either they are not in agreement about wanting kids or there is something else going on because they aren't on the same page.But I wouldn't describe either of them as angry and miserable people generally, or even in their marriage. You see glimpses of a functional, positive relationship there. It may not look as sexy to others, but I relate more to the way Ethan and Harper will quickly kiss goodbye before parting than the way Cam and Daphne are all over each other. I relate to the side-by-side reading/working in bed coupled with some gossip and discussion. I sense that they have pretty similar politics and world outlooks, and that they like and respect each other. The attraction is an issue, especially Ethan toward Harper, but I anticipate it's not that he's unattracted -- there is something else going on.

Cameron and Daphne are different. There's obviously real affection but there's also a lot of artifice, I think. Especially on Daphne's side. She's a real cipher and you can tell in how different she is when she's alone with Harper (much lower energy, moodier, some anger in there too) that the hot, sexy, love bunny things she does with Cameron is not just who she is -- it's a version, but it's not the whole story. And meanwhile, watch the energy Cameron has with Daphne versus with Harper or with Lucia and Mia. It's the same energy. He's just a horny dude. He's more familiar with Daphne but the energy is the same -- I want you. The only time this shifted was when they talked about Daphne's emergency c-section. But even that was centered around Cameron's needs -- I want you, I can't lose you. I don't get that sense of mutual respect. Cameron is the center of their marriage. His needs. Daphne finds ways to meet her needs on the margins, but importantly, her needs are not met in or by the marriage, except insofar as it has facilitated motherhood.

I don't think either marriage is ideal, at all. But if I absolutely had to choose, I'd choose Ethan/Harper because I think with a basis of shared goals and mutual respect, you can work through a lot of stuff. I know I have in my marriage. What Daphne and Cameron has looks desirable in the moment -- all the lovey touching and compliments. But I think longterm I would not want to be in Daphne's position. It would eat me up. Sure, my husband desires me. But he desires everything. I don't find that dynamic remotely appealing.

I think this is kind of an oversimplification of the point. I'm not sure it is artifice between Daphne and Cam. I think with Daphne her eyes are open and you are right she is a cypher and is different when she's on her own and you can see there is more going on there then she lets on. But I do feel like she loves him and has simply organized her life so she has all her needs met. I do think that's accurate that Cam is all about himself, but I do think he cares about her feelings, when Daphne is upset with him he feels compelled to take action to address it (the wine tasting), when she's acting suspicious he goes out of his way to provide her assurances, when Lucia approaches him his anger is about how this will effect his wife. I think some of this is self preservation but I do think Daphne's happiness is important to him and that he does demonstrate that. I do not think he is the center of the marriage and that she is on the margins, but I do think that Daphne evens the scales when she sees that something has created an imbalance (ie, I will not be the cheated upon wife, but I will be the woman in a couple where both parties cheat). She actually I think to the contrary strives to ensure there is equity, even if Cameron isn't entirely aware of it. Which is why I think this might end with HER trying to seduce Ethan.

Harper and Ethan I think you are giving a very rosy impression to. Ethan does not communicate an he is carrying around a lot of dark anger. And he is taking it out on Harper by criticizing her and withholding emotional intimacy. They are better PEOPLE (connected to the world, care about other people, intellectually engaged) but I am not convinced Ethan is any better of a partner than Cameron. He gets to say that because he didn't cheat he did nothing wrong, when in fact he lied to her, he did get kissed, he took a bunch of drugs with h**kers, he became a gregarious engaged person, something Harper wants desperately from him, with these other people. And then again, lied to her. He decides she cheated on him with someone she clearly loathes and is just riding her about this and accusing her of hooking up with Cameron. Notably, she never actually accuses him of anything, just asks questions after finding the wrapper, even after seeing him talking to Lucia and Mia she just asks him not to gaslight her. He immediately asks her if she hooked up with Cameron though.

Longterm I would not want to be in either of these positions, but I'm actually not sure I would choose a ticking time bomb like Ethan who reads but treats me like crap over an out-in-the-open rogue who might cheat on me but actually loves me like Cameron. Not really any good choices there though.

You can call this a snapshot in time, but the lack of trust is more than a snapshot. That's a personality flaw.

I disagree generally with your read but am honestly disturbed by your characterization in the bolded. That is an extremely messed up dynamic to me, where Cameron trying to keep his cheating (with a paid escort) a secret is viewed as "caring about his wife's feelings." Or bribing/distracting her with a fun outing is viewed the same way. As a person in a marriage, I could never view that behavior so generously. I don't consider this situation to be emotional abuse, but the way you are describing it is line with how abusers justify their behavior to their victims -- I lied to protect you, look at all I do for you to make up for it, I know I'm flawed but see the good in me too, baby. Like just reading that made me actually more horrified by Daphne and Cameron's marriage. Yuck yuck yuck, no way. Call me old fashioned if you want, but I don't think here is anything Daphne can do to get her own needs met that would make up for that dynamic.

I don't know where I said that their dynamic was not messed up or that it is something I personally would aspire to. They are living a life dramatically different than you or I could likely ever have or would ever accept. We're not talking about what we personally would accept here. But last season featured two marriages where people were deeply unhappy and made deep concessions to keep the wealth and lifestyle they were accustomed to so I'm not sure why it would shock you to see this again here.

People are not all the same, just because I cannot imagine myself being happy or accepting of a certain marital arrangement doesn't mean I can't fathom that a different person could find a way to make peace with it. I simply thing that Cameron and Daphne are equally flawed but that these flaws present differently. A lid for every pot so to speak. In my opinion the only person in the foursome who has behaved like an ethical and emotionally mature adult is Harper.

[Anonymous]

I had forgotten about Cameron calling Ethan "the original incel." Wow that is such an insanely inflammatory thing to say to someone at dinner with your wives. Like it's just crazy loaded.

It's interesting that they've had these incredibly intense dinner conversations but we haven't seen the couples discuss any of the most dramatic things said at those meals later on between them. Like we saw Ethan and Harper talking about how Cam and Daphne don't vote or follow the news. But no discussion about the "mimetic desire" comment, or that "original incel" statement. Both are very inflammatory and go straight to Ethan's and Cam's masculinity and sexuality.

If someone said something like that to me at a vacation dinner (I'm a woman so it would have to be something different, like someone calling me a bad mom or "frigid" or something), I'd go quiet or leave the meal, and you can bet I'd be discussing it with my partner later. No way would I just smile tightly while someone said those things about me and then just not even bring it up later.

Cam and Ethan both have serious issues. Both. It's crazy to say these things and it's also crazy to have them said to you and have virtually no response or processing. These guys are both trapped in some toxic masculinity, fear of communication, BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

Harper and Ethan are both angry and miserable. Cam and Daphne have a great love between them even though he’s flawed. They enjoy life.

Wow, I don't see it this way at all (DP, btw).

My feeling is that this is a snapshot in time of these two couples, and Ethan and Harper are in a period of turmoil and upheaval. It's clear they've been recently disconnected, that they (or for sure at least Harper) are struggling a bit to come to terms with their new wealth, and that they haven't been communicating well. There's also clearly a looming issue regarding kids that is linked to their lack of sex -- either they are not in agreement about wanting kids or there is something else going on because they aren't on the same page.But I wouldn't describe either of them as angry and miserable people generally, or even in their marriage. You see glimpses of a functional, positive relationship there. It may not look as sexy to others, but I relate more to the way Ethan and Harper will quickly kiss goodbye before parting than the way Cam and Daphne are all over each other. I relate to the side-by-side reading/working in bed coupled with some gossip and discussion. I sense that they have pretty similar politics and world outlooks, and that they like and respect each other. The attraction is an issue, especially Ethan toward Harper, but I anticipate it's not that he's unattracted -- there is something else going on.

Cameron and Daphne are different. There's obviously real affection but there's also a lot of artifice, I think. Especially on Daphne's side. She's a real cipher and you can tell in how different she is when she's alone with Harper (much lower energy, moodier, some anger in there too) that the hot, sexy, love bunny things she does with Cameron is not just who she is -- it's a version, but it's not the whole story. And meanwhile, watch the energy Cameron has with Daphne versus with Harper or with Lucia and Mia. It's the same energy. He's just a horny dude. He's more familiar with Daphne but the energy is the same -- I want you. The only time this shifted was when they talked about Daphne's emergency c-section. But even that was centered around Cameron's needs -- I want you, I can't lose you. I don't get that sense of mutual respect. Cameron is the center of their marriage. His needs. Daphne finds ways to meet her needs on the margins, but importantly, her needs are not met in or by the marriage, except insofar as it has facilitated motherhood.

I don't think either marriage is ideal, at all. But if I absolutely had to choose, I'd choose Ethan/Harper because I think with a basis of shared goals and mutual respect, you can work through a lot of stuff. I know I have in my marriage. What Daphne and Cameron has looks desirable in the moment -- all the lovey touching and compliments. But I think longterm I would not want to be in Daphne's position. It would eat me up. Sure, my husband desires me. But he desires everything. I don't find that dynamic remotely appealing.

I think this is kind of an oversimplification of the point. I'm not sure it is artifice between Daphne and Cam. I think with Daphne her eyes are open and you are right she is a cypher and is different when she's on her own and you can see there is more going on there then she lets on. But I do feel like she loves him and has simply organized her life so she has all her needs met. I do think that's accurate that Cam is all about himself, but I do think he cares about her feelings, when Daphne is upset with him he feels compelled to take action to address it (the wine tasting), when she's acting suspicious he goes out of his way to provide her assurances, when Lucia approaches him his anger is about how this will effect his wife. I think some of this is self preservation but I do think Daphne's happiness is important to him and that he does demonstrate that. I do not think he is the center of the marriage and that she is on the margins, but I do think that Daphne evens the scales when she sees that something has created an imbalance (ie, I will not be the cheated upon wife, but I will be the woman in a couple where both parties cheat). She actually I think to the contrary strives to ensure there is equity, even if Cameron isn't entirely aware of it. Which is why I think this might end with HER trying to seduce Ethan.

Harper and Ethan I think you are giving a very rosy impression to. Ethan does not communicate an he is carrying around a lot of dark anger. And he is taking it out on Harper by criticizing her and withholding emotional intimacy. They are better PEOPLE (connected to the world, care about other people, intellectually engaged) but I am not convinced Ethan is any better of a partner than Cameron. He gets to say that because he didn't cheat he did nothing wrong, when in fact he lied to her, he did get kissed, he took a bunch of drugs with h**kers, he became a gregarious engaged person, something Harper wants desperately from him, with these other people. And then again, lied to her. He decides she cheated on him with someone she clearly loathes and is just riding her about this and accusing her of hooking up with Cameron. Notably, she never actually accuses him of anything, just asks questions after finding the wrapper, even after seeing him talking to Lucia and Mia she just asks him not to gaslight her. He immediately asks her if she hooked up with Cameron though.

Longterm I would not want to be in either of these positions, but I'm actually not sure I would choose a ticking time bomb like Ethan who reads but treats me like crap over an out-in-the-open rogue who might cheat on me but actually loves me like Cameron. Not really any good choices there though.

You can call this a snapshot in time, but the lack of trust is more than a snapshot. That's a personality flaw.

I disagree generally with your read but am honestly disturbed by your characterization in the bolded. That is an extremely messed up dynamic to me, where Cameron trying to keep his cheating (with a paid escort) a secret is viewed as "caring about his wife's feelings." Or bribing/distracting her with a fun outing is viewed the same way. As a person in a marriage, I could never view that behavior so generously. I don't consider this situation to be emotional abuse, but the way you are describing it is line with how abusers justify their behavior to their victims -- I lied to protect you, look at all I do for you to make up for it, I know I'm flawed but see the good in me too, baby. Like just reading that made me actually more horrified by Daphne and Cameron's marriage. Yuck yuck yuck, no way. Call me old fashioned if you want, but I don't think here is anything Daphne can do to get her own needs met that would make up for that dynamic.

Oh, that's very common. So many men think if they don't put down their wives and protect them from ever finding out, don't rub cheating in their face and keep it hidden--that they are respecting their wives. They justify it by 'if she doesn't know, she won't get hurt'. They go to great lengths to cover their tracks. They aren't the type doing it with a neighbor or someone in their immediate circle where it could come out. Look at what Nonno said to Dom: I was secretive and didn't get caught, you showed disrespect and carelessness. Get your sh*t together. Nonno was like Cameron in this way. There is a lot of psychology about it and this is very much 'old school/old boy's club' thinking. The mistress is just a whore not worthy and not a saint like their wives. They can abuse the mistress and throw her away once she becomes a problem or they get tired of having s@x with her and want someone new. The gifts, trips, love letters and affection they show their wives, as well as how they provide makes them feel as if they are treating their wives wonderfully. None of them think they are like those 'other guys'.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

Harper and Ethan are both angry and miserable. Cam and Daphne have a great love between them even though he’s flawed. They enjoy life.

Wow, I don't see it this way at all (DP, btw).

My feeling is that this is a snapshot in time of these two couples, and Ethan and Harper are in a period of turmoil and upheaval. It's clear they've been recently disconnected, that they (or for sure at least Harper) are struggling a bit to come to terms with their new wealth, and that they haven't been communicating well. There's also clearly a looming issue regarding kids that is linked to their lack of sex -- either they are not in agreement about wanting kids or there is something else going on because they aren't on the same page.But I wouldn't describe either of them as angry and miserable people generally, or even in their marriage. You see glimpses of a functional, positive relationship there. It may not look as sexy to others, but I relate more to the way Ethan and Harper will quickly kiss goodbye before parting than the way Cam and Daphne are all over each other. I relate to the side-by-side reading/working in bed coupled with some gossip and discussion. I sense that they have pretty similar politics and world outlooks, and that they like and respect each other. The attraction is an issue, especially Ethan toward Harper, but I anticipate it's not that he's unattracted -- there is something else going on.

Cameron and Daphne are different. There's obviously real affection but there's also a lot of artifice, I think. Especially on Daphne's side. She's a real cipher and you can tell in how different she is when she's alone with Harper (much lower energy, moodier, some anger in there too) that the hot, sexy, love bunny things she does with Cameron is not just who she is -- it's a version, but it's not the whole story. And meanwhile, watch the energy Cameron has with Daphne versus with Harper or with Lucia and Mia. It's the same energy. He's just a horny dude. He's more familiar with Daphne but the energy is the same -- I want you. The only time this shifted was when they talked about Daphne's emergency c-section. But even that was centered around Cameron's needs -- I want you, I can't lose you. I don't get that sense of mutual respect. Cameron is the center of their marriage. His needs. Daphne finds ways to meet her needs on the margins, but importantly, her needs are not met in or by the marriage, except insofar as it has facilitated motherhood.

I don't think either marriage is ideal, at all. But if I absolutely had to choose, I'd choose Ethan/Harper because I think with a basis of shared goals and mutual respect, you can work through a lot of stuff. I know I have in my marriage. What Daphne and Cameron has looks desirable in the moment -- all the lovey touching and compliments. But I think longterm I would not want to be in Daphne's position. It would eat me up. Sure, my husband desires me. But he desires everything. I don't find that dynamic remotely appealing.

I think this is kind of an oversimplification of the point. I'm not sure it is artifice between Daphne and Cam. I think with Daphne her eyes are open and you are right she is a cypher and is different when she's on her own and you can see there is more going on there then she lets on. But I do feel like she loves him and has simply organized her life so she has all her needs met. I do think that's accurate that Cam is all about himself, but I do think he cares about her feelings, when Daphne is upset with him he feels compelled to take action to address it (the wine tasting), when she's acting suspicious he goes out of his way to provide her assurances, when Lucia approaches him his anger is about how this will effect his wife. I think some of this is self preservation but I do think Daphne's happiness is important to him and that he does demonstrate that. I do not think he is the center of the marriage and that she is on the margins, but I do think that Daphne evens the scales when she sees that something has created an imbalance (ie, I will not be the cheated upon wife, but I will be the woman in a couple where both parties cheat). She actually I think to the contrary strives to ensure there is equity, even if Cameron isn't entirely aware of it. Which is why I think this might end with HER trying to seduce Ethan.

Harper and Ethan I think you are giving a very rosy impression to. Ethan does not communicate an he is carrying around a lot of dark anger. And he is taking it out on Harper by criticizing her and withholding emotional intimacy. They are better PEOPLE (connected to the world, care about other people, intellectually engaged) but I am not convinced Ethan is any better of a partner than Cameron. He gets to say that because he didn't cheat he did nothing wrong, when in fact he lied to her, he did get kissed, he took a bunch of drugs with h**kers, he became a gregarious engaged person, something Harper wants desperately from him, with these other people. And then again, lied to her. He decides she cheated on him with someone she clearly loathes and is just riding her about this and accusing her of hooking up with Cameron. Notably, she never actually accuses him of anything, just asks questions after finding the wrapper, even after seeing him talking to Lucia and Mia she just asks him not to gaslight her. He immediately asks her if she hooked up with Cameron though.

Longterm I would not want to be in either of these positions, but I'm actually not sure I would choose a ticking time bomb like Ethan who reads but treats me like crap over an out-in-the-open rogue who might cheat on me but actually loves me like Cameron. Not really any good choices there though.

You can call this a snapshot in time, but the lack of trust is more than a snapshot. That's a personality flaw.

I disagree generally with your read but am honestly disturbed by your characterization in the bolded. That is an extremely messed up dynamic to me, where Cameron trying to keep his cheating (with a paid escort) a secret is viewed as "caring about his wife's feelings." Or bribing/distracting her with a fun outing is viewed the same way. As a person in a marriage, I could never view that behavior so generously. I don't consider this situation to be emotional abuse, but the way you are describing it is line with how abusers justify their behavior to their victims -- I lied to protect you, look at all I do for you to make up for it, I know I'm flawed but see the good in me too, baby. Like just reading that made me actually more horrified by Daphne and Cameron's marriage. Yuck yuck yuck, no way. Call me old fashioned if you want, but I don't think here is anything Daphne can do to get her own needs met that would make up for that dynamic.

I don't know where I said that their dynamic was not messed up or that it is something I personally would aspire to. They are living a life dramatically different than you or I could likely ever have or would ever accept. We're not talking about what we personally would accept here. But last season featured two marriages where people were deeply unhappy and made deep concessions to keep the wealth and lifestyle they were accustomed to so I'm not sure why it would shock you to see this again here.

People are not all the same, just because I cannot imagine myself being happy or accepting of a certain marital arrangement doesn't mean I can't fathom that a different person could find a way to make peace with it. I simply thing that Cameron and Daphne are equally flawed but that these flaws present differently. A lid for every pot so to speak. In my opinion the only person in the foursome who has behaved like an ethical and emotionally mature adult is Harper.

Agree on Harper being the only grownup.

I just think the description of Daphne and Cameron's marriage as "working" for Daphne is weird when juxtaposed with descriptions of Cameron's behavior as him caring for her feelings. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a guy getting mad at the prostitute whose bill he hasn't paid, because she has confronted him in the near vicinity of his wife and might expose him, is an example of him caring about his wife's feelings. That's insane to me. It's not about whether some people make compromises in their marriage (obviously, everyone does). It's that I cannot characterize that behavior by Cameron as an act of caring for his wife.

It's similar to Bert trying to tell Dom that when Bert cheated exentsively on Dom's mom, it was okay and not hurtful because he didn't technically get caught. Like by not making it too obvious, he'd done something kind for Dom's mom. And Dom's response was that regardless of whether or not Bert ever technically got caught, his mom obviously knew and was miserable for decades.

There are a lot of things on this show where there are shades of gray and different ways of looking at it, but I don't think this is one of them. A person who is cheating and covering it up might tell themselves they are doing it to protect their spouse, but we all know that's BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Ethan is actually gay and has feelings for Cameron, but he loves Harper although he’s not physically attracted to her.

I agree and said as much 30 or so pages back.

I just started watching the series and reading this thread. In the early episodes I felt that Ethan was irritated about Cameron’s flirting because he was jealous. He was uncomfortable with Cameron’s partying with hookers because he’s actually attracted to him. I think it will be revealed that Ethan and Cameron once had a fling back when they were college buddies. There was a “being inside you”
comment that Cam jokingly made to Ethan but maybe it wasn’t a joke.

That comment made me cringe terribly. Guys will joke about each other's masculinity and call each other names like h*m* f*g, etc., but they don't graphically describe a s*x act or talk about it that way. That was really, really weird and disturbing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Ethan is actually gay and has feelings for Cameron, but he loves Harper although he’s not physically attracted to her.

I agree and said as much 30 or so pages back.

I just started watching the series and reading this thread. In the early episodes I felt that Ethan was irritated about Cameron’s flirting because he was jealous. He was uncomfortable with Cameron’s partying with hookers because he’s actually attracted to him. I think it will be revealed that Ethan and Cameron once had a fling back when they were college buddies. There was a “being inside you”
comment that Cam jokingly made to Ethan but maybe it wasn’t a joke.

That comment made me cringe terribly. Guys will joke about each other's masculinity and call each other names like h*m* f*g, etc., but they don't graphically describe a s*x act or talk about it that way. That was really, really weird and disturbing.

Disagree, I have known men who say stuff like that on purpose "as a joke" in order to assert dominance. Especially likely to happen in very "bro-y" cultures like frat houses. The finance culture Cameron is described by Daphne to be in, with these "Bernie Madoff" types, is definitely like that. Lots of jokes about raping each other, lots of metaphors involving sex acts including lots of gay sex acts, etc. It's jarring for a normal person to hear but in the kind of environment that someone like Cam operates, that would not be considered out of bounds or surprising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Ethan is actually gay and has feelings for Cameron, but he loves Harper although he’s not physically attracted to her.

I agree and said as much 30 or so pages back.

I just started watching the series and reading this thread. In the early episodes I felt that Ethan was irritated about Cameron’s flirting because he was jealous. He was uncomfortable with Cameron’s partying with hookers because he’s actually attracted to him. I think it will be revealed that Ethan and Cameron once had a fling back when they were college buddies. There was a “being inside you”
comment that Cam jokingly made to Ethan but maybe it wasn’t a joke.

That comment made me cringe terribly. Guys will joke about each other's masculinity and call each other names like h*m* f*g, etc., but they don't graphically describe a s*x act or talk about it that way. That was really, really weird and disturbing.

Disagree, I have known men who say stuff like that on purpose "as a joke" in order to assert dominance. Especially likely to happen in very "bro-y" cultures like frat houses. The finance culture Cameron is described by Daphne to be in, with these "Bernie Madoff" types, is definitely like that. Lots of jokes about raping each other, lots of metaphors involving sex acts including lots of gay sex acts, etc. It's jarring for a normal person to hear but in the kind of environment that someone like Cam operates, that would not be considered out of bounds or surprising.

He even talks to Daphne like that. Playfully calling her a slut, saying he should divorce her all the while canoodling with her on the beach chair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

Harper and Ethan are both angry and miserable. Cam and Daphne have a great love between them even though he’s flawed. They enjoy life.

Wow, I don't see it this way at all (DP, btw).

My feeling is that this is a snapshot in time of these two couples, and Ethan and Harper are in a period of turmoil and upheaval. It's clear they've been recently disconnected, that they (or for sure at least Harper) are struggling a bit to come to terms with their new wealth, and that they haven't been communicating well. There's also clearly a looming issue regarding kids that is linked to their lack of sex -- either they are not in agreement about wanting kids or there is something else going on because they aren't on the same page.But I wouldn't describe either of them as angry and miserable people generally, or even in their marriage. You see glimpses of a functional, positive relationship there. It may not look as sexy to others, but I relate more to the way Ethan and Harper will quickly kiss goodbye before parting than the way Cam and Daphne are all over each other. I relate to the side-by-side reading/working in bed coupled with some gossip and discussion. I sense that they have pretty similar politics and world outlooks, and that they like and respect each other. The attraction is an issue, especially Ethan toward Harper, but I anticipate it's not that he's unattracted -- there is something else going on.

Cameron and Daphne are different. There's obviously real affection but there's also a lot of artifice, I think. Especially on Daphne's side. She's a real cipher and you can tell in how different she is when she's alone with Harper (much lower energy, moodier, some anger in there too) that the hot, sexy, love bunny things she does with Cameron is not just who she is -- it's a version, but it's not the whole story. And meanwhile, watch the energy Cameron has with Daphne versus with Harper or with Lucia and Mia. It's the same energy. He's just a horny dude. He's more familiar with Daphne but the energy is the same -- I want you. The only time this shifted was when they talked about Daphne's emergency c-section. But even that was centered around Cameron's needs -- I want you, I can't lose you. I don't get that sense of mutual respect. Cameron is the center of their marriage. His needs. Daphne finds ways to meet her needs on the margins, but importantly, her needs are not met in or by the marriage, except insofar as it has facilitated motherhood.

I don't think either marriage is ideal, at all. But if I absolutely had to choose, I'd choose Ethan/Harper because I think with a basis of shared goals and mutual respect, you can work through a lot of stuff. I know I have in my marriage. What Daphne and Cameron has looks desirable in the moment -- all the lovey touching and compliments. But I think longterm I would not want to be in Daphne's position. It would eat me up. Sure, my husband desires me. But he desires everything. I don't find that dynamic remotely appealing.

I think this is kind of an oversimplification of the point. I'm not sure it is artifice between Daphne and Cam. I think with Daphne her eyes are open and you are right she is a cypher and is different when she's on her own and you can see there is more going on there then she lets on. But I do feel like she loves him and has simply organized her life so she has all her needs met. I do think that's accurate that Cam is all about himself, but I do think he cares about her feelings, when Daphne is upset with him he feels compelled to take action to address it (the wine tasting), when she's acting suspicious he goes out of his way to provide her assurances, when Lucia approaches him his anger is about how this will effect his wife. I think some of this is self preservation but I do think Daphne's happiness is important to him and that he does demonstrate that. I do not think he is the center of the marriage and that she is on the margins, but I do think that Daphne evens the scales when she sees that something has created an imbalance (ie, I will not be the cheated upon wife, but I will be the woman in a couple where both parties cheat). She actually I think to the contrary strives to ensure there is equity, even if Cameron isn't entirely aware of it. Which is why I think this might end with HER trying to seduce Ethan.

Harper and Ethan I think you are giving a very rosy impression to. Ethan does not communicate an he is carrying around a lot of dark anger. And he is taking it out on Harper by criticizing her and withholding emotional intimacy. They are better PEOPLE (connected to the world, care about other people, intellectually engaged) but I am not convinced Ethan is any better of a partner than Cameron. He gets to say that because he didn't cheat he did nothing wrong, when in fact he lied to her, he did get kissed, he took a bunch of drugs with h**kers, he became a gregarious engaged person, something Harper wants desperately from him, with these other people. And then again, lied to her. He decides she cheated on him with someone she clearly loathes and is just riding her about this and accusing her of hooking up with Cameron. Notably, she never actually accuses him of anything, just asks questions after finding the wrapper, even after seeing him talking to Lucia and Mia she just asks him not to gaslight her. He immediately asks her if she hooked up with Cameron though.

Longterm I would not want to be in either of these positions, but I'm actually not sure I would choose a ticking time bomb like Ethan who reads but treats me like crap over an out-in-the-open rogue who might cheat on me but actually loves me like Cameron. Not really any good choices there though.

You can call this a snapshot in time, but the lack of trust is more than a snapshot. That's a personality flaw.

I disagree generally with your read but am honestly disturbed by your characterization in the bolded. That is an extremely messed up dynamic to me, where Cameron trying to keep his cheating (with a paid escort) a secret is viewed as "caring about his wife's feelings." Or bribing/distracting her with a fun outing is viewed the same way. As a person in a marriage, I could never view that behavior so generously. I don't consider this situation to be emotional abuse, but the way you are describing it is line with how abusers justify their behavior to their victims -- I lied to protect you, look at all I do for you to make up for it, I know I'm flawed but see the good in me too, baby. Like just reading that made me actually more horrified by Daphne and Cameron's marriage. Yuck yuck yuck, no way. Call me old fashioned if you want, but I don't think here is anything Daphne can do to get her own needs met that would make up for that dynamic.

I don't know where I said that their dynamic was not messed up or that it is something I personally would aspire to. They are living a life dramatically different than you or I could likely ever have or would ever accept. We're not talking about what we personally would accept here. But last season featured two marriages where people were deeply unhappy and made deep concessions to keep the wealth and lifestyle they were accustomed to so I'm not sure why it would shock you to see this again here.

People are not all the same, just because I cannot imagine myself being happy or accepting of a certain marital arrangement doesn't mean I can't fathom that a different person could find a way to make peace with it. I simply thing that Cameron and Daphne are equally flawed but that these flaws present differently. A lid for every pot so to speak. In my opinion the only person in the foursome who has behaved like an ethical and emotionally mature adult is Harper.

Agree on Harper being the only grownup.

I just think the description of Daphne and Cameron's marriage as "working" for Daphne is weird when juxtaposed with descriptions of Cameron's behavior as him caring for her feelings. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a guy getting mad at the prostitute whose bill he hasn't paid, because she has confronted him in the near vicinity of his wife and might expose him, is an example of him caring about his wife's feelings. That's insane to me. It's not about whether some people make compromises in their marriage (obviously, everyone does). It's that I cannot characterize that behavior by Cameron as an act of caring for his wife.

It's similar to Bert trying to tell Dom that when Bert cheated exentsively on Dom's mom, it was okay and not hurtful because he didn't technically get caught. Like by not making it too obvious, he'd done something kind for Dom's mom. And Dom's response was that regardless of whether or not Bert ever technically got caught, his mom obviously knew and was miserable for decades.

There are a lot of things on this show where there are shades of gray and different ways of looking at it, but I don't think this is one of them. A person who is cheating and covering it up might tell themselves they are doing it to protect their spouse, but we all know that's BS.

I think there are a lot of kinds of relationships out there in the world and people choose to accept different things because of the totality of the circumstances in their life. Daphne has chosen to not be like Dom's mother by choosing to even the playing field. I think you are confusing my description as this being something that Daphne could find peace with as my saying that what Cameron or what she is doing is 'good'.

Cameron cares about her happiness. Not in a way that would be fulfilling to you, and not in a way that would be fulfilling to me, to be clear, but there are many places where people make misguided decisions because they are flawed. A hoarding parent could still love their child, despite subjecting them to misery. The alcoholic can love their spouse even if they hit them when drunk. And that isn't excusing that, that doesn't mean that child and spouse should endure that, but it is a very overly simplistic view of the world to say that because someone does something bad or misguided that they are incapable of caring. People are complex.

[Anonymous]

Surprised so many people are missing or can't see the synchronous duality between Ethan and Albie. One is a son on a trip. The other is taking a trip around the son. In addition to never being in the same place at the same time (duh!), despite being co-located, the creators seem to want us both to see, but not understand, the two (one) characters’ (character’s) symbiosis. But there are playful hints, the hair, a shared piece of wardrobe, the winking fresco with two (one) head, but it’s generally kept in the background. It’s going to be really interesting how they choose to reveal this twist. And quite a twist it will be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Surprised so many people are missing or can't see the synchronous duality between Ethan and Albie. One is a son on a trip. The other is taking a trip around the son. In addition to never being in the same place at the same time (duh!), despite being co-located, the creators seem to want us both to see, but not understand, the two (one) characters’ (character’s) symbiosis. But there are playful hints, the hair, a shared piece of wardrobe, the winking fresco with two (one) head, but it’s generally kept in the background. It’s going to be really interesting how they choose to reveal this twist. And quite a twist it will be.

Do tell - what shared piece of wardrobe?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Surprised so many people are missing or can't see the synchronous duality between Ethan and Albie. One is a son on a trip. The other is taking a trip around the son. In addition to never being in the same place at the same time (duh!), despite being co-located, the creators seem to want us both to see, but not understand, the two (one) characters’ (character’s) symbiosis. But there are playful hints, the hair, a shared piece of wardrobe, the winking fresco with two (one) head, but it’s generally kept in the background. It’s going to be really interesting how they choose to reveal this twist. And quite a twist it will be.

They have both partied with Lucia. She is the contemporaneous link between the two parties. Lucia approaches Ethan to complain about Cameron not paying. This theory is the only thing I am entirely convinced is completely insane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had forgotten about Cameron calling Ethan "the original incel." Wow that is such an insanely inflammatory thing to say to someone at dinner with your wives. Like it's just crazy loaded.

It's interesting that they've had these incredibly intense dinner conversations but we haven't seen the couples discuss any of the most dramatic things said at those meals later on between them. Like we saw Ethan and Harper talking about how Cam and Daphne don't vote or follow the news. But no discussion about the "mimetic desire" comment, or that "original incel" statement. Both are very inflammatory and go straight to Ethan's and Cam's masculinity and sexuality.

If someone said something like that to me at a vacation dinner (I'm a woman so it would have to be something different, like someone calling me a bad mom or "frigid" or something), I'd go quiet or leave the meal, and you can bet I'd be discussing it with my partner later. No way would I just smile tightly while someone said those things about me and then just not even bring it up later.

Cam and Ethan both have serious issues. Both. It's crazy to say these things and it's also crazy to have them said to you and have virtually no response or processing. These guys are both trapped in some toxic masculinity, fear of communication, BS.

But we really only see this dynamic and insults between Cameron and Ethan. I believe Daphne and Harper are following their husband's leads on this.