Working parents - feel like I spend no time with my kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

+1. I was reading a loosely autobiographical book from the 1890s, and the author stated that hamlet women (the farm hand families of England at the time) bundled their 2 year olds up, handed them a lunch, and sent them off to play with the rest of the pre-school aged children, to come back at dinner. They did have their babies, who came along about every 18 months, with them at all times.

And in societies we're talking about women working alongside their children, the men did too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

NP. +1 to "this just isn't true." So many things....
First of all, don't pretend like 20th century SAHM's invented being close by to your children. If you look at breastfeeding, we are designed as humans to be close by our babies and young toddlers (and maybe even older toddlers) all day. I AM NOT saying formula is bad, daycare is bad, etc. I'm just saying, for most of human history, women didn't just leave their babies and toddlers all day. They couldn't. Historically, women that farmed, cooked, cleaned, did other chores all day, had their babies and toddlers nearby or even strapped onto them. No, they weren't actively playing with them all day, but having your baby nearby while you do something else is very different from having them in daycare.
Two, please remember OP is talking about a baby and a toddler! No, mom's in 70's weren't sending their BABIES AND TODDLERS out to roam the streets. Obviously. So how is it relevant to OP that 70s moms used to send their children out to play?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

NP. +1 to "this just isn't true." So many things....
First of all, don't pretend like 20th century SAHM's invented being close by to your children. If you look at breastfeeding, we are designed as humans to be close by our babies and young toddlers (and maybe even older toddlers) all day. I AM NOT saying formula is bad, daycare is bad, etc. I'm just saying, for most of human history, women didn't just leave their babies and toddlers all day. They couldn't. Historically, women that farmed, cooked, cleaned, did other chores all day, had their babies and toddlers nearby or even strapped onto them. No, they weren't actively playing with them all day, but having your baby nearby while you do something else is very different from having them in daycare.
Two, please remember OP is talking about a baby and a toddler! No, mom's in 70's weren't sending their BABIES AND TODDLERS out to roam the streets. Obviously. So how is it relevant to OP that 70s moms used to send their children out to play?

This is getting hilarious. You think upper-class women were with their babies and toddlers all day?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

NP. +1 to "this just isn't true." So many things....
First of all, don't pretend like 20th century SAHM's invented being close by to your children. If you look at breastfeeding, we are designed as humans to be close by our babies and young toddlers (and maybe even older toddlers) all day. I AM NOT saying formula is bad, daycare is bad, etc. I'm just saying, for most of human history, women didn't just leave their babies and toddlers all day. They couldn't. Historically, women that farmed, cooked, cleaned, did other chores all day, had their babies and toddlers nearby or even strapped onto them. No, they weren't actively playing with them all day, but having your baby nearby while you do something else is very different from having them in daycare.
Two, please remember OP is talking about a baby and a toddler! No, mom's in 70's weren't sending their BABIES AND TODDLERS out to roam the streets. Obviously. So how is it relevant to OP that 70s moms used to send their children out to play?

This is getting hilarious. You think upper-class women were with their babies and toddlers all day?

Okay no, many upper class women (ie a tiny slice of the population....) had wet nurses and nannies. I'm sure the ones who really let their wet nurses and nannies do most of the child rearing were the same as moms today who prefer to work and send their kids to daycare. No big deal. But I'm sure there were also plenty of rich women who spent a lot of time in the nursery with their babies and toddler even though they had wet nurses and nannies. It's not like they were forced to be away from them if they didn't want to be. I'm mostly responding to PP's idea that throughout history mothers have been separated from their babies and toddlers. It's just not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

NP. +1 to "this just isn't true." So many things....
First of all, don't pretend like 20th century SAHM's invented being close by to your children. If you look at breastfeeding, we are designed as humans to be close by our babies and young toddlers (and maybe even older toddlers) all day. I AM NOT saying formula is bad, daycare is bad, etc. I'm just saying, for most of human history, women didn't just leave their babies and toddlers all day. They couldn't. Historically, women that farmed, cooked, cleaned, did other chores all day, had their babies and toddlers nearby or even strapped onto them. No, they weren't actively playing with them all day, but having your baby nearby while you do something else is very different from having them in daycare.
Two, please remember OP is talking about a baby and a toddler! No, mom's in 70's weren't sending their BABIES AND TODDLERS out to roam the streets. Obviously. So how is it relevant to OP that 70s moms used to send their children out to play?

This is getting hilarious. You think upper-class women were with their babies and toddlers all day?

Okay no, many upper class women (ie a tiny slice of the population....) had wet nurses and nannies. I'm sure the ones who really let their wet nurses and nannies do most of the child rearing were the same as moms today who prefer to work and send their kids to daycare. No big deal. But I'm sure there were also plenty of rich women who spent a lot of time in the nursery with their babies and toddler even though they had wet nurses and nannies. It's not like they were forced to be away from them if they didn't want to be. I'm mostly responding to PP's idea that throughout history mothers have been separated from their babies and toddlers. It's just not true.

you are REALLY not very bright. Wow. I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

NP. +1 to "this just isn't true." So many things....
First of all, don't pretend like 20th century SAHM's invented being close by to your children. If you look at breastfeeding, we are designed as humans to be close by our babies and young toddlers (and maybe even older toddlers) all day. I AM NOT saying formula is bad, daycare is bad, etc. I'm just saying, for most of human history, women didn't just leave their babies and toddlers all day. They couldn't. Historically, women that farmed, cooked, cleaned, did other chores all day, had their babies and toddlers nearby or even strapped onto them. No, they weren't actively playing with them all day, but having your baby nearby while you do something else is very different from having them in daycare.
Two, please remember OP is talking about a baby and a toddler! No, mom's in 70's weren't sending their BABIES AND TODDLERS out to roam the streets. Obviously. So how is it relevant to OP that 70s moms used to send their children out to play?

This is getting hilarious. You think upper-class women were with their babies and toddlers all day?

Okay no, many upper class women (ie a tiny slice of the population....) had wet nurses and nannies. I'm sure the ones who really let their wet nurses and nannies do most of the child rearing were the same as moms today who prefer to work and send their kids to daycare. No big deal. But I'm sure there were also plenty of rich women who spent a lot of time in the nursery with their babies and toddler even though they had wet nurses and nannies. It's not like they were forced to be away from them if they didn't want to be. I'm mostly responding to PP's idea that throughout history mothers have been separated from their babies and toddlers. It's just not true.

you are REALLY not very bright. Wow. I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Show me your evidence for women throughout history being separated from their babies and toddlers! Show me your evidence that even rich women spent most of the day separated from their children, whether they wanted to or not. Let's picture OP as an 19th century wealthy woman. She decides she wants to spend more time with her baby than the usual one hour a day after tea or whatever. You think she wouldn't be allowed to for some reason...?

[Anonymous]

. I'm sure the ones who really let their wet nurses and nannies do most of the child rearing were the same as moms today who prefer to work and send their kids to daycare. No big deal. But I'm sure there were also plenty of rich women who spent a lot of time in the nursery with their babies and toddler even though they had wet nurses and nannies. It's not like they were forced to be away from them if they didn't want to be. I'm mostly responding to PP's idea that throughout history mothers have been separated from their babies and toddlers. It's just not true.

you are REALLY not very bright. Wow. I don't know whether to laugh or cry!
That pp is an utter delusional, uneducated .... something. Yes, only the mothers who prefer to work send their kid to daycare. Yes, only evil worker moms send their kids to daycare, because you know all those poor mom that have to work send their kids.....where? Oh, wait in the past to grandmas and to older kids to watch. The sheer idea that the moms that send their kids to day care today are the equivalent of rich spoiled nobility of yesteryears! Does she ever leave the bubble?!

[Anonymous]

Read this dear pp who thinks motherhood as you know it is not patriarchal product of men "reclaiming their power" in industrial era.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09612029900200202
Then read this
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/history-of-education-quarterly/article/making-good-wives-and-mothers-the-transformation-of-middleclass-girls-education-in-nineteenthcentury-britain/737D0E092DC98426B104A509194FFE00

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

NP. +1 to "this just isn't true." So many things....
First of all, don't pretend like 20th century SAHM's invented being close by to your children. If you look at breastfeeding, we are designed as humans to be close by our babies and young toddlers (and maybe even older toddlers) all day. I AM NOT saying formula is bad, daycare is bad, etc. I'm just saying, for most of human history, women didn't just leave their babies and toddlers all day. They couldn't. Historically, women that farmed, cooked, cleaned, did other chores all day, had their babies and toddlers nearby or even strapped onto them. No, they weren't actively playing with them all day, but having your baby nearby while you do something else is very different from having them in daycare.
Two, please remember OP is talking about a baby and a toddler! No, mom's in 70's weren't sending their BABIES AND TODDLERS out to roam the streets. Obviously. So how is it relevant to OP that 70s moms used to send their children out to play?

This is getting hilarious. You think upper-class women were with their babies and toddlers all day?

Okay no, many upper class women (ie a tiny slice of the population....) had wet nurses and nannies. I'm sure the ones who really let their wet nurses and nannies do most of the child rearing were the same as moms today who prefer to work and send their kids to daycare. No big deal. But I'm sure there were also plenty of rich women who spent a lot of time in the nursery with their babies and toddler even though they had wet nurses and nannies. It's not like they were forced to be away from them if they didn't want to be. I'm mostly responding to PP's idea that throughout history mothers have been separated from their babies and toddlers. It's just not true.

you are REALLY not very bright. Wow. I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Show me your evidence for women throughout history being separated from their babies and toddlers! Show me your evidence that even rich women spent most of the day separated from their children, whether they wanted to or not. Let's picture OP as an 19th century wealthy woman. She decides she wants to spend more time with her baby than the usual one hour a day after tea or whatever. You think she wouldn't be allowed to for some reason...?

Your ignorance is seriously frightening.

You know who was separated from their children in your scenario? The wet nurses, nannies, and maids (and most of them were slaves).

We don't need to picture OP as a white wealthy woman of the 19 century. There are plenty of trashy novels that will help you with that fantasy.

[Anonymous]

The vast majority of jobs can potentially be flexible. Many of the equivalent jobs in Europe are already.

For people who are very good, I don't think demanding flexibility is taking a big risk. If you are good, you will always be in demand, and you can find an environment where they are willing to be accommodative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't feel bad op. Until recent times mothers really didn't spend that much time with their kids, not even the rich or nobility. For them it was the choice, but for majority of women it was a necessity, they worked on their farms, cooking took all day, farming all day, working in factory all day, till you were dead at 30 and your kids were roaming the streets hungry. So, apart from last hundred years, give or take a few, your kids are much, much better off. Heck, even in 70s SAHM let their kids out as soon as they were old enough and called them for lunch. You are comparing to some new patriarchal idiocy that has no business telling women how they should raise their kids, sadly it is not men that enforce it, it is other women.

This just isn’t true (except the nobility part). Yes, women have always worked, but historically, they farmed, cleaned, cooked, etc alongside their children. The younger kids might be watched by older ones, but they were still together as a family. What’s new is the daycare your setting for infants and toddlers.

Yes, I love to farm with my toddler all day. He drives the tractor and milks the cows. Quality time.

NP. +1 to "this just isn't true." So many things....
First of all, don't pretend like 20th century SAHM's invented being close by to your children. If you look at breastfeeding, we are designed as humans to be close by our babies and young toddlers (and maybe even older toddlers) all day. I AM NOT saying formula is bad, daycare is bad, etc. I'm just saying, for most of human history, women didn't just leave their babies and toddlers all day. They couldn't. Historically, women that farmed, cooked, cleaned, did other chores all day, had their babies and toddlers nearby or even strapped onto them. No, they weren't actively playing with them all day, but having your baby nearby while you do something else is very different from having them in daycare.
Two, please remember OP is talking about a baby and a toddler! No, mom's in 70's weren't sending their BABIES AND TODDLERS out to roam the streets. Obviously. So how is it relevant to OP that 70s moms used to send their children out to play?

This is getting hilarious. You think upper-class women were with their babies and toddlers all day?

Okay no, many upper class women (ie a tiny slice of the population....) had wet nurses and nannies. I'm sure the ones who really let their wet nurses and nannies do most of the child rearing were the same as moms today who prefer to work and send their kids to daycare. No big deal. But I'm sure there were also plenty of rich women who spent a lot of time in the nursery with their babies and toddler even though they had wet nurses and nannies. It's not like they were forced to be away from them if they didn't want to be. I'm mostly responding to PP's idea that throughout history mothers have been separated from their babies and toddlers. It's just not true.

you are REALLY not very bright. Wow. I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Show me your evidence for women throughout history being separated from their babies and toddlers! Show me your evidence that even rich women spent most of the day separated from their children, whether they wanted to or not. Let's picture OP as an 19th century wealthy woman. She decides she wants to spend more time with her baby than the usual one hour a day after tea or whatever. You think she wouldn't be allowed to for some reason...?

Your ignorance is seriously frightening.

You know who was separated from their children in your scenario? The wet nurses, nannies, and maids (and most of them were slaves).

We don't need to picture OP as a white wealthy woman of the 19 century. There are plenty of trashy novels that will help you with that fantasy.

OP wants to spend more time with her child. PP is saying "don't feel bad OP, most women throughout history have been separated from their children anyway" and talks about farms, cooking, cleaning, etc. I reply and say that's not true - specifically re the average family doing average chores and work - and give many examples but don't mention upper class women. Other PP responds about upperclass women. I respond and say yes a lot of upper class women had childcare, but that doesn't mean they for some reason weren't allowed to spend more time with their children if they wanted to.

[Anonymous]

Why did any of you have kids? Check a box or something?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why did any of you have kids? Check a box or something?

I needed someone to till the fields and shear the sheep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Read this dear pp who thinks motherhood as you know it is not patriarchal product of men "reclaiming their power" in industrial era.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09612029900200202
Then read this
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/history-of-education-quarterly/article/making-good-wives-and-mothers-the-transformation-of-middleclass-girls-education-in-nineteenthcentury-britain/737D0E092DC98426B104A509194FFE00

I’ll look at your articles. But this is still a short view of human history. For thousands of years, (not exceptionally wealthy) women strapped the baby to them and went about their day of work. The PP is right that this couldn’t be avoided because they had to nurse the baby. Kids typically nursed for years, but of course they could be cared for by other family members once they were 2 or so. But being watched by grandma of a sibling is still very different from a modern daycare setting. You can argue it’s better or worse, but yes— a mother being away from her infant or toddler for 8+ hours a Day is relatively new in human history (again, excluding the rich & royal with wet nurses).