Too much Christmas Education in my Public School

[Anonymous]

If the point of doing Christmas activities in school is to “educate” the kids about different traditions then they need to teach kids that Santa is fictional, a story told by parents as part of a “cultural experience”. I would be totally ok with that.

(But, of course, that will never happen because the real purpose is to allow Christian kids a chance to celebrate their Christian holiday within the publically funded school.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the point of doing Christmas activities in school is to “educate” the kids about different traditions then they need to teach kids that Santa is fictional, a story told by parents as part of a “cultural experience”. I would be totally ok with that.

(But, of course, that will never happen because the real purpose is to allow Christian kids a chance to celebrate their Christian holiday within the publically funded school.)

Santa isn’t a Christian figure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this.

Why is it scary?

I'm not religious. My family and I celebrate Christmas. We don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, talk about Wisemen. We don't have an advent calendar or candles, which are religious. We don't go to Christmas mass. We have a tree and give presents. We are not celebrating a Christian holiday. Just like at Halloween, we are celebrating a cultural holiday. We are not pagan, we are not observing Smahain.

Do you think when we're celebrating Halloween we're also celebrating a religious holiday?

But you are still celebrating a holiday that's associated with one ethnic group over another.

There are families who celebrate Hanukkah secularly. They light candles, and give presents, and eat gelt and jelly donuts, and don't talk about the miracle etc . . . Would it be OK if the school decorated every worksheet, and read every story about Hanukkah, and got the kids all excited about it for a month, and skipped Christmas altogether? No, because it would be valuing one culture over another.

I believe that families celebrate Hanukkah secularly.

I don't find it scary.

I want "It is really scary" pp to explain why it's scary that people celebrate certain things secularly. That's what I posted about. I, and other people, have addressed prioritizing one celebration over another in other posts.

So, "It is really scary" pp, please answer. Hanukkah PP above might also be interested in you weighing in if it's scary that people believe they celebrate secular Hanukkah.

And I guarantee you that every single family celebrating Hannuka "secularly" is Jewish culturally, and celebrates Hannukah because they are Jewish and it is a Jewish holiday. It's not really a distinction with a meaning. Maybe Halloween is a more difficult case. Maybe in 100 years Christmas will be truly secular, but it's surely not now.

I am American and Christmas is an American holiday, and I celebrate it. I am American and Halloween is an American holiday, and I celebrate it. There are Americans who celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, and there are Americans who celebrate Halloween as a religious holiday. And there are Americans who do not celebrate Christmas or Halloween either as American or religious holidays.

I don't find any of this scary. Are you the "scary" person?

The point is, if we were just celebrating secular winter holidays in schools, there should be as much Hannukah and Diwali and Eid as Christmas -- because they can be "secular". In OP's school, there transparently is not.

No, that's not the point of this particular back-and-forth. This particular back-and-forth is because someone said "It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this" where this is "Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday."

"Scary" person, please come and explain why it's scary, and tell me whether it's also scary that people believe Halloween is both a cultural and a religious holiday.

Man you do not get it, and that is scary. It is scary that you believe that, because some people celebrate Christmas in a secular way, it is a secular American holiday that can be separated from its status as a religious holiday. As the PP you responded to most recently pointed out, some Jews celebrate Hanukkah in a secular way, some Hindus celebrate Diwali in a secular manner, etc. But that doesn't remotely mean that any of these are secular holidays. How some people choose to celebrate a holiday does not change the nature of the holiday itself.

As for it being an "American" holiday, it is an American holiday in the sense that the majority of Americans celebrate it. And because Christians make up the bast majority of the population, aspects of Christmas celebrations have seeped into the broader culture. But it is still a religious holiday at its root. By saying Christmas is a secular American holiday, you are saying that Christmas can properly be taught in school to the exclusion of other holidays that somehow are not bestowed as similarly secular because some people celebrate in a secular manner. It also implies that good Americans should celebrate Christmas, even if they adhere to other religions. That's a very dangerous path to go down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this.

Why is it scary?

I'm not religious. My family and I celebrate Christmas. We don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, talk about Wisemen. We don't have an advent calendar or candles, which are religious. We don't go to Christmas mass. We have a tree and give presents. We are not celebrating a Christian holiday. Just like at Halloween, we are celebrating a cultural holiday. We are not pagan, we are not observing Smahain.

Do you think when we're celebrating Halloween we're also celebrating a religious holiday?

But you are still celebrating a holiday that's associated with one ethnic group over another.

There are families who celebrate Hanukkah secularly. They light candles, and give presents, and eat gelt and jelly donuts, and don't talk about the miracle etc . . . Would it be OK if the school decorated every worksheet, and read every story about Hanukkah, and got the kids all excited about it for a month, and skipped Christmas altogether? No, because it would be valuing one culture over another.

I believe that families celebrate Hanukkah secularly.

I don't find it scary.

I want "It is really scary" pp to explain why it's scary that people celebrate certain things secularly. That's what I posted about. I, and other people, have addressed prioritizing one celebration over another in other posts.

So, "It is really scary" pp, please answer. Hanukkah PP above might also be interested in you weighing in if it's scary that people believe they celebrate secular Hanukkah.

And I guarantee you that every single family celebrating Hannuka "secularly" is Jewish culturally, and celebrates Hannukah because they are Jewish and it is a Jewish holiday. It's not really a distinction with a meaning. Maybe Halloween is a more difficult case. Maybe in 100 years Christmas will be truly secular, but it's surely not now.

I am American and Christmas is an American holiday, and I celebrate it. I am American and Halloween is an American holiday, and I celebrate it. There are Americans who celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, and there are Americans who celebrate Halloween as a religious holiday. And there are Americans who do not celebrate Christmas or Halloween either as American or religious holidays.

I don't find any of this scary. Are you the "scary" person?

The point is, if we were just celebrating secular winter holidays in schools, there should be as much Hannukah and Diwali and Eid as Christmas -- because they can be "secular". In OP's school, there transparently is not.

No, that's not the point of this particular back-and-forth. This particular back-and-forth is because someone said "It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this" where this is "Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday."

"Scary" person, please come and explain why it's scary, and tell me whether it's also scary that people believe Halloween is both a cultural and a religious holiday.

Man you do not get it, and that is scary. It is scary that you believe that, because some people celebrate Christmas in a secular way, it is a secular American holiday that can be separated from its status as a religious holiday. As the PP you responded to most recently pointed out, some Jews celebrate Hanukkah in a secular way, some Hindus celebrate Diwali in a secular manner, etc. But that doesn't remotely mean that any of these are secular holidays. How some people choose to celebrate a holiday does not change the nature of the holiday itself.

As for it being an "American" holiday, it is an American holiday in the sense that the majority of Americans celebrate it. And because Christians make up the bast majority of the population, aspects of Christmas celebrations have seeped into the broader culture. But it is still a religious holiday at its root. By saying Christmas is a secular American holiday, you are saying that Christmas can properly be taught in school to the exclusion of other holidays that somehow are not bestowed as similarly secular because some people celebrate in a secular manner. It also implies that good Americans should celebrate Christmas, even if they adhere to other religions. That's a very dangerous path to go down.

DP. You just said that the Jewish families or atheist families or families of other faiths that celebrate Christmas, in any form, are doing it wrong. That's not correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this.

Why is it scary?

I'm not religious. My family and I celebrate Christmas. We don't celebrate the birth of Jesus, talk about Wisemen. We don't have an advent calendar or candles, which are religious. We don't go to Christmas mass. We have a tree and give presents. We are not celebrating a Christian holiday. Just like at Halloween, we are celebrating a cultural holiday. We are not pagan, we are not observing Smahain.

Do you think when we're celebrating Halloween we're also celebrating a religious holiday?

But you are still celebrating a holiday that's associated with one ethnic group over another.

There are families who celebrate Hanukkah secularly. They light candles, and give presents, and eat gelt and jelly donuts, and don't talk about the miracle etc . . . Would it be OK if the school decorated every worksheet, and read every story about Hanukkah, and got the kids all excited about it for a month, and skipped Christmas altogether? No, because it would be valuing one culture over another.

I believe that families celebrate Hanukkah secularly.

I don't find it scary.

I want "It is really scary" pp to explain why it's scary that people celebrate certain things secularly. That's what I posted about. I, and other people, have addressed prioritizing one celebration over another in other posts.

So, "It is really scary" pp, please answer. Hanukkah PP above might also be interested in you weighing in if it's scary that people believe they celebrate secular Hanukkah.

And I guarantee you that every single family celebrating Hannuka "secularly" is Jewish culturally, and celebrates Hannukah because they are Jewish and it is a Jewish holiday. It's not really a distinction with a meaning. Maybe Halloween is a more difficult case. Maybe in 100 years Christmas will be truly secular, but it's surely not now.

I am American and Christmas is an American holiday, and I celebrate it. I am American and Halloween is an American holiday, and I celebrate it. There are Americans who celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, and there are Americans who celebrate Halloween as a religious holiday. And there are Americans who do not celebrate Christmas or Halloween either as American or religious holidays.

I don't find any of this scary. Are you the "scary" person?

The point is, if we were just celebrating secular winter holidays in schools, there should be as much Hannukah and Diwali and Eid as Christmas -- because they can be "secular". In OP's school, there transparently is not.

No, that's not the point of this particular back-and-forth. This particular back-and-forth is because someone said "It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this" where this is "Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday."

"Scary" person, please come and explain why it's scary, and tell me whether it's also scary that people believe Halloween is both a cultural and a religious holiday.

Man you do not get it, and that is scary. It is scary that you believe that, because some people celebrate Christmas in a secular way, it is a secular American holiday that can be separated from its status as a religious holiday. As the PP you responded to most recently pointed out, some Jews celebrate Hanukkah in a secular way, some Hindus celebrate Diwali in a secular manner, etc. But that doesn't remotely mean that any of these are secular holidays. How some people choose to celebrate a holiday does not change the nature of the holiday itself.

As for it being an "American" holiday, it is an American holiday in the sense that the majority of Americans celebrate it. And because Christians make up the bast majority of the population, aspects of Christmas celebrations have seeped into the broader culture. But it is still a religious holiday at its root. By saying Christmas is a secular American holiday, you are saying that Christmas can properly be taught in school to the exclusion of other holidays that somehow are not bestowed as similarly secular because some people celebrate in a secular manner. It also implies that good Americans should celebrate Christmas, even if they adhere to other religions. That's a very dangerous path to go down.

DP. You just said that the Jewish families or atheist families or families of other faiths that celebrate Christmas, in any form, are doing it wrong. That's not correct.

That's not remotely what I said. Anyone of any faith can choose to celebrate whatever they want. If they want to celebrate Christmas in a secular manner, that's their choice. If a Christian wants to light a menorah and celebrate Hannukah in a secular way (as some people I know do), that's up to them. None of that changes that Christmas and Hannukah are still religious holidays.

[Anonymous]

I appreciate OPs perspective as my majority privilege led me to consider the Santa/Reindeer/tree aspect of Christmas as completely secular. Given the Christian roots of the holiday, I can understand that it is better to focus on a winter theme in public schools. Making snowmen, snowflakes, snow globes, stories about sledding etc. and perhaps watching Frosty the Snowman—versus The Grinch— seem to be open and inclusive to all students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christmas-loving practicing Christian. However, there is a strong historical backdrop to the relationship between Christians and Jews. Jews are a small minority that have been persecuted by Christians for centuries. They were forced to convert and killed for not converting. There is a sensitivity when it comes to Christian-based activities (even if they have been somewhat secularized) being imposed on Jewish children.

I have several friends who are Baha'i's from Iran. They don't care at all about Christmas in the schools and happily participate in Christmas activities. But there has not historically been large scale persecution of Baha'i's by Christians. However, they are very sensitive to Muslim's imposing their rules on them, as Baha'i's have consistently been persecuted by Muslims in Iran (l live outside the DC area where there is a large Muslim population in the schools).

We have to understand history when thinking about a people's seeming "overreaction" to activities that the majority deem innocuous.

I am OP. And bingo!!! You got it. I said it on page 1. Jews were persecuted by Christians and it’s the symbolizing of my daughter being forced to participate in crafts associated with Christmas, a Christian holiday. My post says Christmas education, not Christian education. And again, I am fine with a few... it was just every day for a month was overkill and excludes her, when it can easily have been related.

Totally talking to the teacher if anyone cares.

You may continue debating religion for another 13 pages.

Uuummmm, OP, I'm sorry but YOU don't get it. DP. You do realize that the Jesus of the Christmas celebration died because of Jewish persecution, don't you? This all goes both ways. And when you cited some of the examples - elves, santa - you neglected to show any correlation to religion. Those are urban legends that have a cultural association in the American world but they are decidedly NOT religious, Christian or otherwise. But by all means talk to the teacher and give her a chance to educate the ignorant.

aaand the anti-semites are here!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the point of doing Christmas activities in school is to “educate” the kids about different traditions then they need to teach kids that Santa is fictional, a story told by parents as part of a “cultural experience”. I would be totally ok with that.

(But, of course, that will never happen because the real purpose is to allow Christian kids a chance to celebrate their Christian holiday within the publically funded school.)

Santa isn’t a Christian figure.

Santa is the centerpiece of celebrating Christmas, a Christian holiday

But to PP's point, my DS's 1st grade teacher actually did give a lesson on the historical St Nicholas! I thought that was pretty cool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She made a Christmas tree, a Rudolph ornament and an Elf ornament, and a Santa hat pencil holder. They were gifts from her to us. All the kids had to make the same thing. I would have been fine with one or two Christmas themed and then a snowman, snowflake, etc.

Those are all secular and non religous things.

They learned about menorahs. Did they learn about advent wreaths? That would be an equivalent religious item.

A menorah is religious.

Santa, elves, reindeer and Christmas trees are not.

Um... people who don’t celebrate Christmas don’t believe in Santa, elves and reindeer. And they don’t have Christmas trees for any other purpose than to celebrate Christmas, no matter how commercialized it’s gotten. I’d say those are ALL Christmas related.

The reason why they learned about menoraahs and not some fancy false Chanukah characters... is bc the holiday is religious with no fancy false characters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a Christmas-loving practicing Christian. However, there is a strong historical backdrop to the relationship between Christians and Jews. Jews are a small minority that have been persecuted by Christians for centuries. They were forced to convert and killed for not converting. There is a sensitivity when it comes to Christian-based activities (even if they have been somewhat secularized) being imposed on Jewish children.

I have several friends who are Baha'i's from Iran. They don't care at all about Christmas in the schools and happily participate in Christmas activities. But there has not historically been large scale persecution of Baha'i's by Christians. However, they are very sensitive to Muslim's imposing their rules on them, as Baha'i's have consistently been persecuted by Muslims in Iran (l live outside the DC area where there is a large Muslim population in the schools).

We have to understand history when thinking about a people's seeming "overreaction" to activities that the majority deem innocuous.

I am OP. And bingo!!! You got it. I said it on page 1. Jews were persecuted by Christians and it’s the symbolizing of my daughter being forced to participate in crafts associated with Christmas, a Christian holiday. My post says Christmas education, not Christian education. And again, I am fine with a few... it was just every day for a month was overkill and excludes her, when it can easily have been related.

Totally talking to the teacher if anyone cares.

You may continue debating religion for another 13 pages.

Uuummmm, OP, I'm sorry but YOU don't get it. DP. You do realize that the Jesus of the Christmas celebration died because of Jewish persecution, don't you? This all goes both ways. And when you cited some of the examples - elves, santa - you neglected to show any correlation to religion. Those are urban legends that have a cultural association in the American world but they are decidedly NOT religious, Christian or otherwise. But by all means talk to the teacher and give her a chance to educate the ignorant.

aaand the anti-semites are here!

I wonder if they realize that not everyone believes in Jesus. Bc if you’re not a Christian, he’s meaningless/non-exsistent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, it’s cultural activities. As for Rudolph, the story is about acceptance and recognizing different strengths. There is not much Christmas except for Santa delivering gifts.

+1.

And Santa has nothing to do with Christianity.

OP, perhaps you're having a bad day?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the point of doing Christmas activities in school is to “educate” the kids about different traditions then they need to teach kids that Santa is fictional, a story told by parents as part of a “cultural experience”. I would be totally ok with that.

(But, of course, that will never happen because the real purpose is to allow Christian kids a chance to celebrate their Christian holiday within the publically funded school.)

Santa isn’t a Christian figure.

Santa is the centerpiece of celebrating Christmas, a Christian holiday

But to PP's point, my DS's 1st grade teacher actually did give a lesson on the historical St Nicholas! I thought that was pretty cool.

Santa is about gift giving, not the baby Jesus. That's why you exchange gifts at holiday parties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If the point of doing Christmas activities in school is to “educate” the kids about different traditions then they need to teach kids that Santa is fictional, a story told by parents as part of a “cultural experience”. I would be totally ok with that.

Hey, that's what Trump just did, and all the media are chasing him for doing so!

#CrazyAmericans

[Anonymous]

FTR the gift giving originated from the wiseman bringing gifts. Santa Rudolph,etc are linked to Christmas, a Christian holiday, no matter how you slice it.

[Anonymous]

If it makes you feel any better, OP, I too get ticked off with all the Santa, Rudolph, tree focus. But I am Catholic. I feel my faith gets short shrift in public schools' ham handed attempt in "portraying the Christian holiday to the kids". I feel all other faiths get at least a serious focus on what the faith is really about. But if you try to have one serious day about, "Jesus was born in Bethlehem, etc." it is a huge no-no, and just shuffled into the whole Santa/North Pole/Tree sort of thing. That is NOT what my faith is about in the least.