Humanize Palestine

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

Do you think it's okay that Jew-killing is an explicit part of Hamas's charter?

I'm a new poster here and am deeply conflicted. I am a Jew. I am absolutely NOT OKAY with killing civilians and children. Duh. But I also think that Palestinians are suffering for having elected a party that has as part of its platform killing another ethnicity. Can we stop ignoring that? Can we stop pretending that Hamas wouldn't bomb the hell out of Israel if they could?

If Hamas explicitly disavowed violence towards Jews -- or heck, even just eliminated it from its charter -- I'd feel a lot more convinced that Israel had another option.

That's not true. Again, the more I'm on these boards, the more I see how people are misinformed. Hamas denied that charter years ago, their leader came out and said that Hamas has grown from what they used to be and they don't want to kill Jews nor do they follow that charter any longer. Again, Hamas doesn't have a public charter at this time and hasn't had one for years. Their leader came out and said unless you hear it from their mouth it is not from them. So please, stop quoting that charter that Hamas itself doesn't approve of. You can Google "current hamas charter" or anything related to see for yourself

The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no.

[Muslima]

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant" Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda.[85][86] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[84]

British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government"[88]Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh, has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

Do you think it's okay that Jew-killing is an explicit part of Hamas's charter?

I'm a new poster here and am deeply conflicted. I am a Jew. I am absolutely NOT OKAY with killing civilians and children. Duh. But I also think that Palestinians are suffering for having elected a party that has as part of its platform killing another ethnicity. Can we stop ignoring that? Can we stop pretending that Hamas wouldn't bomb the hell out of Israel if they could?

If Hamas explicitly disavowed violence towards Jews -- or heck, even just eliminated it from its charter -- I'd feel a lot more convinced that Israel had another option.

That's not true. Again, the more I'm on these boards, the more I see how people are misinformed. Hamas denied that charter years ago, their leader came out and said that Hamas has grown from what they used to be and they don't want to kill Jews nor do they follow that charter any longer. Again, Hamas doesn't have a public charter at this time and hasn't had one for years. Their leader came out and said unless you hear it from their mouth it is not from them. So please, stop quoting that charter that Hamas itself doesn't approve of. You can Google "current hamas charter" or anything related to see for yourself

The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no.

Meshaal is speaking from both sides of his mouth, while simultaneously building tunnels designed for terrorist attacks.

"The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1]

The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]

In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."[6] Hamas have moved away from their charter since they decided to go for political office.[7] In 2009 interviews with the BBC, Tony Blair claimed that Hamas does not accept the existence of Israel and continues to pursue their objectives through terror and violence; Sir Jeremy Greenstock however argued that they have not adopted their charter since they won the Palestinian legislative election, 2006 as part of their political program.[8] Instead they have moved to a more secular stance.[7] In 2008, the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, stated that Hamas would agree to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, and to offer a long-term truce with Israel.[9] In contrast to this, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar stated that any talk of the 1967 lines is "just a phase" until Hamas has a chance to "regain the land...even if we [Hamas] have to do so inch by inch."[10] Other Hamas leaders, including Ismail Haniyah and Khaled Meshaal have also stated repeatedly that "Palestine – from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, from its north to its south – is our land, our right, and our homeland. There will be no relinquishing or forsaking even an inch or small part of it,"[11] and that "we shall not relinquish the Islamic waqf on the land of Palestine, and Jerusalem shall not be divided into Western and Eastern Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a single united [city], and Palestine stretches from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and from Naqoura [Rosh Ha-Niqra] to Umm Al-Rashrash [Eilat] in the south."[12][13]"

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

Do you think it's okay that Jew-killing is an explicit part of Hamas's charter?

I'm a new poster here and am deeply conflicted. I am a Jew. I am absolutely NOT OKAY with killing civilians and children. Duh. But I also think that Palestinians are suffering for having elected a party that has as part of its platform killing another ethnicity. Can we stop ignoring that? Can we stop pretending that Hamas wouldn't bomb the hell out of Israel if they could?

If Hamas explicitly disavowed violence towards Jews -- or heck, even just eliminated it from its charter -- I'd feel a lot more convinced that Israel had another option.

That's not true. Again, the more I'm on these boards, the more I see how people are misinformed. Hamas denied that charter years ago, their leader came out and said that Hamas has grown from what they used to be and they don't want to kill Jews nor do they follow that charter any longer. Again, Hamas doesn't have a public charter at this time and hasn't had one for years. Their leader came out and said unless you hear it from their mouth it is not from them. So please, stop quoting that charter that Hamas itself doesn't approve of. You can Google "current hamas charter" or anything related to see for yourself

The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no.

Okay, if the only charter that is out there for them is so very inaccurate... Why don't they take a few minutes to update it? By, you know, doing a big control-x on the Jew-killing? Because I bet that would help, a lot. It would allow moderate Jews to support them without explicitly supporting violence against our families.

Also, you don't get to choose for all of us what the "real question" is.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?

This - how does Israel maintain its security without taking out the rockets and tunnels that threaten its civilians?

[Anonymous]

In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."

Okay, let's guess what those internal reasons are!

My guesses:

1. The document is password protected and no one can remember the password.
2. They're real busy right now, what with all the rocket-launching.
3. Someone is using the only pencil.
4. They don't want their constituency to know that they don't want to kill Jews anymore.

Anyone else got any theories?

[Muslima]

Israeli soldier admits killing of civilians was a pre-planned act of revenge

Former Israeli military commander and Breaking the Silence researcher Eran Efrati has posted a statement to Facebook on his talks with IDF soldiers in Gaza, and reveals the deliberate killing of Palestinians by sniper fire in Shuja’iyya neighborhood as punishment for the death of soldiers in their units.

reports from soldiers in the Gaza Strip who leak information out to me. I am in the process of publication of two big stories in major U.S. newspapers, but there are some things I can share with you right now: Soldiers in two different units inside Gaza leaked information about the murdering of Palestinians by sniper fire in Shuja’iyya neighborhood as punishment for the death of soldiers in their units.

Source : http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

Do you think it's okay that Jew-killing is an explicit part of Hamas's charter?

I'm a new poster here and am deeply conflicted. I am a Jew. I am absolutely NOT OKAY with killing civilians and children. Duh. But I also think that Palestinians are suffering for having elected a party that has as part of its platform killing another ethnicity. Can we stop ignoring that? Can we stop pretending that Hamas wouldn't bomb the hell out of Israel if they could?

If Hamas explicitly disavowed violence towards Jews -- or heck, even just eliminated it from its charter -- I'd feel a lot more convinced that Israel had another option.

That's not true. Again, the more I'm on these boards, the more I see how people are misinformed. Hamas denied that charter years ago, their leader came out and said that Hamas has grown from what they used to be and they don't want to kill Jews nor do they follow that charter any longer. Again, Hamas doesn't have a public charter at this time and hasn't had one for years. Their leader came out and said unless you hear it from their mouth it is not from them. So please, stop quoting that charter that Hamas itself doesn't approve of. You can Google "current hamas charter" or anything related to see for yourself

The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no.

Okay, if the only charter that is out there for them is so very inaccurate... Why don't they take a few minutes to update it? By, you know, doing a big control-x on the Jew-killing? Because I bet that would help, a lot. It would allow moderate Jews to support them without explicitly supporting violence against our families.

Also, you don't get to choose for all of us what the "real question" is.

I don't speak for Hamas, you can ask them why they don't have an updated charter on their website even though they have already said all their demands are available on the site. You are free to choose what to question, just like I am, my question wasnt directed at you. I don't speak for you, you are free to speak for yourself

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?

I can't focus on your parenthetical because I don't believe Israel has a right to eliminate Hamas. Who gave it that right? The real question is , does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation and the answer is No

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:
I don't speak for Hamas, you can ask them why they don't have an updated charter on their website even though they have already said all their demands are available on the site. You are free to choose what to question, just like I am, my question wasnt directed at you. I don't speak for you, you are free to speak for yourself

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Especially since you have plenty of guesses about other things.

If you had to guess why Hamas "has no charter" right now, why would you guess it is? Too busy?

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

10:06 PP here - let's concentrate on my parenthetical. How would you recommend Israel eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians?

I can't focus on your parenthetical because I don't believe Israel has a right to eliminate Hamas. Who gave it that right? The real question is , does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation and the answer is No

So propose a method to get Hamas/people in Gaza to stop shooting missiles at civilians in Israel. And, assuming the answer is to lift the blockade, how can Israel do that and ensure its safety? i.e. that Hamas/people of Gaza will not be bringing in bigger weapons.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
I don't speak for Hamas, you can ask them why they don't have an updated charter on their website even though they have already said all their demands are available on the site. You are free to choose what to question, just like I am, my question wasnt directed at you. I don't speak for you, you are free to speak for yourself

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Especially since you have plenty of guesses about other things.

If you had to guess why Hamas "has no charter" right now, why would you guess it is? Too busy?

To be honest, my guess is they don't have a charter because there might be some disagreements among their members and they can't agree on what their charter should be. They will of course not admit internal discord publicly because that would weaken their organization in the eyes of their "ennemies". Hamas is a huge organization, but this is just my guess, do not quote me on it, I do not have any insider info on the issue

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, how would you recommend Israel eliminate Hamas (or at least eliminate their ability to attack Israeli civilians) without any adverse effect on Gaza's civilian population?

Why do you think Hamas needs to be eliminated?

Because they are a terrorist organization with the primary goal of eradicating Israel and establishing an Islamist regime in the region.

That's not true.

Which part is not true?

-terrorist organization? They are a designated terrorist organization. This is indesputable.

-eradicating Israel? It is right in their charter. Also indesputable.

-establishing an Islamist regime in the region? Haven't they done so in the Gaza Strip? Outlawed alcohol? Enforced modesty? Relied on Sharia?

What exactly is untrue?

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
I don't speak for Hamas, you can ask them why they don't have an updated charter on their website even though they have already said all their demands are available on the site. You are free to choose what to question, just like I am, my question wasnt directed at you. I don't speak for you, you are free to speak for yourself

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Especially since you have plenty of guesses about other things.

If you had to guess why Hamas "has no charter" right now, why would you guess it is? Too busy?

To be honest, my guess is they don't have a charter because there might be some disagreements among their members and they can't agree on what their charter should be. They will of course not admit internal discord publicly because that would weaken their organization in the eyes of their "ennemies". Hamas is a huge organization, but this is just my guess, do not quote me on it, I do not have any insider info on the issue

Ding ding ding! I think you are entirely correct. I also think it's not going too far to say that at least some of the disagreement is over whether they should kill all the Jews or not.

Now, do you really not think that it impairs diplomatic relations when the elected party cannot amongst themselves even agree to simply not killing Jews?

See why Israel might be a wee bit hesitant about accepting Hamas as a partner in peace?