Ax vs Ask

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously no one in their right mind would think a teacher with a New England accent was speaking incorrectly or even imagine correcting him or her. That is just a laughable scenario and I don't buy it that anyone here would actually take offense or bring it up -- here, with the teacher or with the principle. So yes, having your hair stand on end because Ask is being mispronounced seems "tinged with racism." I think most racism is under the radar these days.

Got it. If anyone has a problem with a teacher teaching AAVE rather than standard english, that person is a racist. Presumably the black mother who posted previously gets a pass. Of is she a self-hating black woman?

Very "under the radar".

What's wrong with you? Why would a black woman who didn't like AAVE be self-hating? AAVE is not spoken by every black person, it's a dialect spoken by some. Would you say a person from Lousiana who didn't speak French Creole and didn't like it is self-hating? No. Please, at least attempt to make sense with your comebacks.

And yes, if someone is a-okay with a white teacher with a heavy Boston or Chicago accent who doesn't pronounce words as they would be pronounced in standard American English but thinks it's unacceptable for a a black teacher to speak AAVE, THAT'S RACIST.

Try to keep up here, it's not that hard.

The black PP wrote that she pulled her child out of public school because her child's teacher spoke AAVE--and she very reasonably determined that she wanted a teacher who knew to speak, and would model proper, standard English. Not that she wouldn't speak AAVE; that her child's teacher spoke it.

If you want to fling baseless charges of racism around as some sort of therapeutic tool, or substitute for rational argument, you may wish to start with her. By your logic, she's clearly "acting white" out of self-focused racism.

NP here. It is certainly true that a person, regardless of race, might not be racist and would be less concerned about the white teacher with the Boston accent than the black teacher who says "ax." But that person would also likely be responding to a social norm in society at large that it is much more low-class to say "ax" than to say "cah" because that is something that low-income blacks say and, let's face it, people of all races are more fearful of blacks than of white Bostonians. I believe that that may be the pp's point. That one may not personally be racist but it is important to recognize that the norms that are driving this debate are based on a clear racial stratification.

I understand this, and don't disagree. But, again, "ax" isn't the equivalent of "cah". It's the equivalent of "youse guys". And the PP's histrionic accusations of racism hinge on whether one would totally accept a teacher saying "youse guys" while finding "axe" unacceptable--which is a position cut entirely from whole cloth. In other words, no one has offered it. Regardless off what sorts of racist boogeymen might be lurking in PPs imagination, I find both unacceptable in a professional educator.

As far as social stratification--which I feel is the proper framing--yes, that does play into it. Just as it's inappropriate to go to a job interview--or to come to school--dressed in cut-offs and daisy-dukes, it's also inappropriate for the educational authority figure to use such language, and rather than trying to change it, to hold it up as just an example of an alternative dialect. Many of these inner-city kids struggle with enough issues without further disadvantaging them. Some of these social norms may be marginally unfair, but by pretending that they don't exist helps no one.

This is the crux of the disagreement, isn't it. Youse is not a mispronunciation of you -- youse is a slang word. Cah is a not a slang word -- it is a mispronunciation of car. Ax is not a slang word -- it is a mispronunciation of ask.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously no one in their right mind would think a teacher with a New England accent was speaking incorrectly or even imagine correcting him or her. That is just a laughable scenario and I don't buy it that anyone here would actually take offense or bring it up -- here, with the teacher or with the principle. So yes, having your hair stand on end because Ask is being mispronounced seems "tinged with racism." I think most racism is under the radar these days.

Got it. If anyone has a problem with a teacher teaching AAVE rather than standard english, that person is a racist. Presumably the black mother who posted previously gets a pass. Of is she a self-hating black woman?

Very "under the radar".

What's wrong with you? Why would a black woman who didn't like AAVE be self-hating? AAVE is not spoken by every black person, it's a dialect spoken by some. Would you say a person from Lousiana who didn't speak French Creole and didn't like it is self-hating? No. Please, at least attempt to make sense with your comebacks.

And yes, if someone is a-okay with a white teacher with a heavy Boston or Chicago accent who doesn't pronounce words as they would be pronounced in standard American English but thinks it's unacceptable for a a black teacher to speak AAVE, THAT'S RACIST.

Try to keep up here, it's not that hard.

The black PP wrote that she pulled her child out of public school because her child's teacher spoke AAVE--and she very reasonably determined that she wanted a teacher who knew to speak, and would model proper, standard English. Not that she wouldn't speak AAVE; that her child's teacher spoke it.

If you want to fling baseless charges of racism around as some sort of therapeutic tool, or substitute for rational argument, you may wish to start with her. By your logic, she's clearly "acting white" out of self-focused racism.

NP here. It is certainly true that a person, regardless of race, might not be racist and would be less concerned about the white teacher with the Boston accent than the black teacher who says "ax." But that person would also likely be responding to a social norm in society at large that it is much more low-class to say "ax" than to say "cah" because that is something that low-income blacks say and, let's face it, people of all races are more fearful of blacks than of white Bostonians. I believe that that may be the pp's point. That one may not personally be racist but it is important to recognize that the norms that are driving this debate are based on a clear racial stratification.

I understand this, and don't disagree. But, again, "ax" isn't the equivalent of "cah". It's the equivalent of "youse guys". And the PP's histrionic accusations of racism hinge on whether one would totally accept a teacher saying "youse guys" while finding "axe" unacceptable--which is a position cut entirely from whole cloth. In other words, no one has offered it. Regardless off what sorts of racist boogeymen might be lurking in PPs imagination, I find both unacceptable in a professional educator.

As far as social stratification--which I feel is the proper framing--yes, that does play into it. Just as it's inappropriate to go to a job interview--or to come to school--dressed in cut-offs and daisy-dukes, it's also inappropriate for the educational authority figure to use such language, and rather than trying to change it, to hold it up as just an example of an alternative dialect. Many of these inner-city kids struggle with enough issues without further disadvantaging them. Some of these social norms may be marginally unfair, but by pretending that they don't exist helps no one.

This is the crux of the disagreement, isn't it. Youse is not a mispronunciation of you -- youse is a slang word. Cah is a not a slang word -- it is a mispronunciation of car. Ax is not a slang word -- it is a mispronunciation of ask.

Hmm. I'm not sure this is correct. "Axe" is not a mispronunciation of "ask" in the opinion of AAVE. It's the correct pronunciation...in an alternative dialect. "Youse" is the correct pronunciation of the second person plural...in Philadelphia dialect. Both perfectly legitimate alternative dialects.

Just completely inappropriate from and educator in a school environment.

[Anonymous]

I don't think it's convincing to argue that an accent is a mispronunciation. It isn't. It is an accent. They are not the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think it's convincing to argue that an accent is a mispronunciation. It isn't. It is an accent. They are not the same thing.

No one has said that. People are saying, however, that a dialect is a mispronunciation, which it is not.

"Cah" may be how one with a Boston accent pronounces car. However, if you're worried about your child saying "aks" instead of "ask," why not also be upset if your child picked up on saying "cah" instead of "car?"

If the concern is that your child is hearing words that aren't pronounced as they are in standard American English, why is learning "cah" better than learning "aks?"

Neither is a standard American English pronunciation. I don't want my kid saying "cah" or "aks," so I wonder (although I'm sure I know the answer), why some PP's have stated that picking up on "cah" from a teacher with a Boston accent is preferable to picking up on "aks" from a teacher who speaks AAVE. An accent is not "superior" to a dialect, so the underlying issue here is pretty obvious.

[Anonymous]

NP almost hate to get into this . . . but when someone from Boston sees the word CAR, they pronounce the letters in the order they appear in the word. Yes, the "AR" comes out as "AH" just as in does in PARK, when they say "PAHK" This is consistent. When the word ASK is pronounced AKS, the speaker is not pronouncing the letters in the order that they appear in the word. Does this same person say BAKSET when they want to use the word BASKET, probably not. Agree "aks" is more akin to "youse guys", where the word has been changed.

[Anonymous]

Let's agree to ignore the damn linguist. She's (I assume it's a she) is completely missing the point. I'm an educated AA who doesn't want my kid saying "ax" and wouldn't be happy if my kid's teacher said it either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let's agree to ignore the damn linguist. She's (I assume it's a she) is completely missing the point. I'm an educated AA who doesn't want my kid saying "ax" and wouldn't be happy if my kid's teacher said it either.

You're missing the point, actually. I said I wouldn't want my kid or my kid's teacher saying "aks," but that people who are proclaiming the superiority of "cah" over "aks" need to examine the reasoning behind that.

But keep drinking the Kool-Aid, you educated AA you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP almost hate to get into this . . . but when someone from Boston sees the word CAR, they pronounce the letters in the order they appear in the word. Yes, the "AR" comes out as "AH" just as in does in PARK, when they say "PAHK" This is consistent. When the word ASK is pronounced AKS, the speaker is not pronouncing the letters in the order that they appear in the word. Does this same person say BAKSET when they want to use the word BASKET, probably not. Agree "aks" is more akin to "youse guys", where the word has been changed.

You haven't read the whole thread, metathesis is common and consistent in AAVE.

[Anonymous]

I'm not comfortable with "mines" as well as "ax" from an educator. I agree with the pp who said teach your kids not correct other people's grammer. My kids ask about the "mines" word all the time. I tell them it's wrong, not copy it or dwell on it.

I'm from the Boston area. When the school busdriver would shout "if youse kids don't shut up, I'm drivin' you back to school" we all shouted back "youse kids!" because we knew enough to make fun of it.

[Anonymous]

The issue is that "ax" sounds ignorant, "cah" does not. Also on the ignorant list: pants worn several inches below the waist so that the thong/boxers show, names that are spelled incorrectly in hopes that the bearer will seem original ("Madicyn" is a personal favorite), neck tattoos, and allowing two year olds to have soda in their sippy cups.

[Anonymous]

I wonder what is more important: that someone not "sound" ignorant by saying axe instead of ask

Or that someone not BE ignorant like the person who just posted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what is more important: that someone not "sound" ignorant by saying axe instead of ask

Or that someone not BE ignorant like the person who just posted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what is more important: that someone not "sound" ignorant by saying axe instead of ask

Or that someone not BE ignorant like the person who just posted.

LOL!

Thank you! It's obvious what the issue is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what is more important: that someone not "sound" ignorant by saying axe instead of ask

Or that someone not BE ignorant like the person who just posted.

Laugh all you want. But, as they say?

You never get a second chance, to make a first impression...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what is more important: that someone not "sound" ignorant by saying axe instead of ask

Or that someone not BE ignorant like the person who just posted.

Laugh all you want. But, as they say?

You never get a second chance, to make a first impression...

Assuming you are 22:26 and that was your first post in this thread, you didn't make a very good first impression.