Ax vs Ask

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of Chicago Italians (in my experience but maybe just Chicagoans in general) say "asks," it is just a shade away from ax, but it is definitely an 's' on the end. In a sentence:

"So, I asks her what the hell is wrong with that? You know what she says to me? She says that it's just not normal. Then I asks why not, because I wanted to know..."

Totally something that could be overheard in my parents house. They can turn it off, too, but when they speak to certain people it's like that with a full on Chicago accent, though.

If my children's teacher used "asks" and "says" in that way, I wouldn't be happy about it, and would bring it to her attention - and I think most prople would. But here's the question - would there be a substantial subset of people howling, "But that's how we speak - it's the Chicago Italian dialect! It's racist to say that it's improper or incorrect!"? No, I don't think so. So why is this any different?

Just my opinion, but I think "ax" and "I asks her . . . " each sound equally uneducated, and I would hope that my kids' teachers wouldn't use/model that kind of language.

Well, that is quite rude, I am sorry we sound so uneducated. I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably. I assure you, my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of Chicago Italians (in my experience but maybe just Chicagoans in general) say "asks," it is just a shade away from ax, but it is definitely an 's' on the end. In a sentence:

"So, I asks her what the hell is wrong with that? You know what she says to me? She says that it's just not normal. Then I asks why not, because I wanted to know..."

Totally something that could be overheard in my parents house. They can turn it off, too, but when they speak to certain people it's like that with a full on Chicago accent, though.

If my children's teacher used "asks" and "says" in that way, I wouldn't be happy about it, and would bring it to her attention - and I think most prople would. But here's the question - would there be a substantial subset of people howling, "But that's how we speak - it's the Chicago Italian dialect! It's racist to say that it's improper or incorrect!"? No, I don't think so. So why is this any different?

Just my opinion, but I think "ax" and "I asks her . . . " each sound equally uneducated, and I would hope that my kids' teachers wouldn't use/model that kind of language.

Well, that is quite rude, I am sorry we sound so uneducated. I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably. I assure you, my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother.

Please don't be offended by rude people who don't understand there's more than one way to speak English. There is standard English and there are many more dialects that are not a sign of a lack of education, but rather who you are and where you grew up.

[Anonymous]

9:24 does have an interesting point. But the issue here isn't perception of an adult who uses "ax" or "warsh" - it's an elementary school teacher who uses it in front of her students. If she just slips up now and then, she shouldn't be offended if you bring it to her attention. If she makes the conscious decision to use "ax" - I have a problem with that. Because like it or not, it's wrong, and makes the speaker sound uneducated. I wouldn't want my kids to be taught that.

[Anonymous]

As a PP previously pointed out though, it may be so ingrained for the teacher that she couldn't really change it if she tried.

If one year of hearing ax instead of ask from one person is going to be that disastrous to your child's learning, perhaps you should gather up some money and look for a school where all the teachers say ask.

[Anonymous]

Well, that is quite rude, I am sorry we sound so uneducated. I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably. I assure you, my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother.

I don't know why you think what I wrote was rude - you yourself said, "I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably." That says to me that you know it's incorrect and don't want to sound uneducated when you're not speaking casually to friends or family members. In any event, no offense intended - I certainly don't use the Queen's English in everyday conversations.

To the larger point - you've made my point exactly: "my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother." How adults speak is not the point - but parents have a right to expect that their children's teachers use correct english when teaching or speaking to children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Well, that is quite rude, I am sorry we sound so uneducated. I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably. I assure you, my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother.

I don't know why you think what I wrote was rude - you yourself said, "I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably." That says to me that you know it's incorrect and don't want to sound uneducated when you're not speaking casually to friends or family members. In any event, no offense intended - I certainly don't use the Queen's English in everyday conversations.

To the larger point - you've made my point exactly: "my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother." How adults speak is not the point - but parents have a right to expect that their children's teachers use correct english when teaching or speaking to children.

What are you not understanding? It is not incorrect. It is not standard American English, but a Italian Chicagoan dialect.

American English itself is just a set of dialects.

[Anonymous]

If one year of hearing ax instead of ask from one person is going to be that disastrous to your child's learning, perhaps you should gather up some money and look for a school where all the teachers say ask

Really? You think it's unreasonable to expect teachers to possess, and use, proper language skills? And parents who expect that should send their kids to private school? We couldn't possibly expect public school teachers to use proper English? If that's your attitude, I guess that's your right - but I totally disagree. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations. (I can't believe I just quoted GHWB - aargh.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, that is quite rude, I am sorry we sound so uneducated. I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably. I assure you, my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother.

I don't know why you think what I wrote was rude - you yourself said, "I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably." That says to me that you know it's incorrect and don't want to sound uneducated when you're not speaking casually to friends or family members. In any event, no offense intended - I certainly don't use the Queen's English in everyday conversations.

To the larger point - you've made my point exactly: "my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother." How adults speak is not the point - but parents have a right to expect that their children's teachers use correct english when teaching or speaking to children.

What are you not understanding? It is not incorrect. It is not standard American English, but a Italian Chicagoan dialect.

American English itself is just a set of dialects.

Let me get this straight - you are seriously arguing that, "So, I asks her what the hell is wrong with that?" and "Let me ax you a question . . . " are CORRECT? Something you want taught to your kids?

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on whether it's a big deal, or worth bringing to the teacher's attention, but that it is CORRECT? Yikes. I really have no response to that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If one year of hearing ax instead of ask from one person is going to be that disastrous to your child's learning, perhaps you should gather up some money and look for a school where all the teachers say ask

Really? You think it's unreasonable to expect teachers to possess, and use, proper language skills? And parents who expect that should send their kids to private school? We couldn't possibly expect public school teachers to use proper English? If that's your attitude, I guess that's your right - but I totally disagree. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations. (I can't believe I just quoted GHWB - aargh.)

No, I don't think it's unreasonable at all. HOWEVER, I do think it's unreasonable to expect that correcting someone's pronunciation of a word she's mispronounced her entire life is going to lead to a permanent change.

Therefore, if you want to guarantee that your kid hears ask and not ax in the classroom, you need to find a new teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, that is quite rude, I am sorry we sound so uneducated. I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably. I assure you, my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother.

I don't know why you think what I wrote was rude - you yourself said, "I assure you my family knows correct grammar and sentence structure but regionally it's something we slip into when we are speaking comfortably." That says to me that you know it's incorrect and don't want to sound uneducated when you're not speaking casually to friends or family members. In any event, no offense intended - I certainly don't use the Queen's English in everyday conversations.

To the larger point - you've made my point exactly: "my Italian great-aunt who is a nun and a teacher at a Catholic school does not teach the children "I asks" but she does say it on the phone to my grandmother." How adults speak is not the point - but parents have a right to expect that their children's teachers use correct english when teaching or speaking to children.

What are you not understanding? It is not incorrect. It is not standard American English, but a Italian Chicagoan dialect.

American English itself is just a set of dialects.

Let me get this straight - you are seriously arguing that, "So, I asks her what the hell is wrong with that?" and "Let me ax you a question . . . " are CORRECT? Something you want taught to your kids?

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on whether it's a big deal, or worth bringing to the teacher's attention, but that it is CORRECT? Yikes. I really have no response to that.

Have you ever even heard of linguistics? Did you even read my post? It is incorrect in the standard American English dialect. It is not incorrect in the Chicago/Italian dialect.

[Anonymous]

Even more fun for this thread: the use of double negatives used to be an accepted form of speech! Speech changes quite rapidly and can't really be controlled. Countries like France and Spain that create institutions to maintain their language in a 'pure' state find that the official version begins to deviate from actual speech in short order. What some people call 'dialects' are considered by many linguists as distinct languages. It is the insistence that one language is superior to another that helps foster the idea that this difference is due to education. Is Catalan a substandard French/Spanish mix? Is Haitian Creole just bad French? These arguments never go away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Huh, I had no idea! The things you learn on DCUM Thanks, 20:56!

Another thanks to 20:56! Every time I'm getting really irritated with the supercilious jerks and the trolls, somebody comes along with some new information.

I'll have to check out the Word Mavens website.

[Anonymous]

Have you ever even heard of linguistics? Did you even read my post? It is incorrect in the standard American English dialect. It is not incorrect in the Chicago/Italian dialect.

So basically, it's all fair game. If a word or phrase is used by some regional ethnic subset of people, it is "correct," whether it's Chicago/Italian, or Milwaukee/Polish, or Des Moines/Lithuanian, or Butte/Egyptian, or San Diego/Finnish, or Atlanta/Japanese? And because it's "correct" somewhere, it is perfectly fine to teach it in schools.

You're correct that I am no linguistics scholar (although I suspect you aren't, either), but I'm guessing that's not the the way it works.

But even if it is, shouldn't teachers - elementary school teachers - be teaching (and using) "the standard American English dialect?" And not the "Chicago/Italian dialect?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Have you ever even heard of linguistics? Did you even read my post? It is incorrect in the standard American English dialect. It is not incorrect in the Chicago/Italian dialect.

So basically, it's all fair game. If a word or phrase is used by some regional ethnic subset of people, it is "correct," whether it's Chicago/Italian, or Milwaukee/Polish, or Des Moines/Lithuanian, or Butte/Egyptian, or San Diego/Finnish, or Atlanta/Japanese? And because it's "correct" somewhere, it is perfectly fine to teach it in schools.

You're correct that I am no linguistics scholar (although I suspect you aren't, either), but I'm guessing that's not the the way it works.

But even if it is, shouldn't teachers - elementary school teachers - be teaching (and using) "the standard American English dialect?" And not the "Chicago/Italian dialect?"

You're not understanding me at all. I said that no, I would not want my child's teacher to teach anything other than standard American English. However, I don't think 1 year of having a teacher who doesn't pronounce one word as I'd like it to be would be disastrous to my child's learning. I'd just let my child know that the correct way to say it is ask and move on.

My point was that how she says it is correct in the dialect that she speaks, so it's not a matter of simply telling her it's ask, not ax, and then she automatically stops saying ax. It's ingrained into how she speaks and I doubt she'd be able to permanently and consistently pronounce it as ask. Therefore, if I did find it very problematic, I would find a new teacher for my child rather than trying to change the way the teacher speaks.

[Anonymous]

Is this teacher at a JKLM or top school? Why haven't other parents complained?