Georgia's anti-abortion law forcing brain-dead woman to remain on life support

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

dcum is an an anonymous online website.

Why does dcum get to set georgia state law?

What states allow dcum to override their citizen voters and elected officials to set state law? Can you list each state abd the year dcum was granted that right and power?

granny even admitted the family would not remove their loved one from life support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

dcum is an an anonymous online website.

Why does dcum get to set georgia state law?

What states allow dcum to override their citizen voters and elected officials to set state law? Can you list each state abd the year dcum was granted that right and power?

granny even admitted the family would not remove their loved one from life support.

In general, do you personally believe it is ethically acceptable to sustain a brain dead person against her will and the will of her family for a first trimester fetus?

For state law to supercede a woman's own advance directive for withdrawal of care if she has an advance directive or has otherwise made it clear she would not want to be sustained on a ventilator and suffers an adverse event and is declared brain dead?

I can say unequivocally as an RN who has cared for chronic ventilator patients that if I were pregnant and suffered an adverse event in my first (or second trimester) that I would want to be allowed to die and my fetus to die with me. Do you believe that state law should force me to be maintained for my fetus even if it was not what I wanted?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

dcum is an an anonymous online website.

Why does dcum get to set georgia state law?

What states allow dcum to override their citizen voters and elected officials to set state law? Can you list each state abd the year dcum was granted that right and power?

granny even admitted the family would not remove their loved one from life support.

In general, do you personally believe it is ethically acceptable to sustain a brain dead person against her will and the will of her family for a first trimester fetus?

For state law to supercede a woman's own advance directive for withdrawal of care if she has an advance directive or has otherwise made it clear she would not want to be sustained on a ventilator and suffers an adverse event and is declared brain dead?

I can say unequivocally as an RN who has cared for chronic ventilator patients that if I were pregnant and suffered an adverse event in my first (or second trimester) that I would want to be allowed to die and my fetus to die with me. Do you believe that state law should force me to be maintained for my fetus even if it was not what I wanted?

You mean like right wingers that bomb abortion clinics?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

dcum is an an anonymous online website.

Why does dcum get to set georgia state law?

What states allow dcum to override their citizen voters and elected officials to set state law? Can you list each state abd the year dcum was granted that right and power?

granny even admitted the family would not remove their loved one from life support.

In general, do you personally believe it is ethically acceptable to sustain a brain dead person against her will and the will of her family for a first trimester fetus?

For state law to supercede a woman's own advance directive for withdrawal of care if she has an advance directive or has otherwise made it clear she would not want to be sustained on a ventilator and suffers an adverse event and is declared brain dead?

I can say unequivocally as an RN who has cared for chronic ventilator patients that if I were pregnant and suffered an adverse event in my first (or second trimester) that I would want to be allowed to die and my fetus to die with me. Do you believe that state law should force me to be maintained for my fetus even if it was not what I wanted?

It doesn’t matter what your opinion is or what my opinion is. The state of GA has laws regarding this situation.

I don’t live in Georgia. Do you? If you do not, as I do not, GA state law has nothing to do with either of us.

My issues are:

1. The family does not want the mother removed from life support

2. anonymous dcum posters are lying about the health of the unborn baby to garner support for their wishes to have the mother taken off child support. Which in itself is weird, because it’s none of their business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

dcum is an an anonymous online website.

Why does dcum get to set georgia state law?

What states allow dcum to override their citizen voters and elected officials to set state law? Can you list each state abd the year dcum was granted that right and power?

granny even admitted the family would not remove their loved one from life support.

In general, do you personally believe it is ethically acceptable to sustain a brain dead person against her will and the will of her family for a first trimester fetus?

For state law to supercede a woman's own advance directive for withdrawal of care if she has an advance directive or has otherwise made it clear she would not want to be sustained on a ventilator and suffers an adverse event and is declared brain dead?

I can say unequivocally as an RN who has cared for chronic ventilator patients that if I were pregnant and suffered an adverse event in my first (or second trimester) that I would want to be allowed to die and my fetus to die with me. Do you believe that state law should force me to be maintained for my fetus even if it was not what I wanted?

It doesn’t matter what your opinion is or what my opinion is. The state of GA has laws regarding this situation.

I don’t live in Georgia. Do you? If you do not, as I do not, GA state law has nothing to do with either of us.

My issues are:

1. The family does not want the mother removed from life support

2. anonymous dcum posters are lying about the health of the unborn baby to garner support for their wishes to have the mother taken off child support. Which in itself is weird, because it’s none of their business.

1. Since when are we not allowed to have opinions about other US citizens and state laws that seem unethical? That is weird. about what is allowed in blue states and on a. It is worth noting that state Republican leaders seem to fight state abortion law being set by referendum votes by state resident. So even state politicians do not actually care about their own citizens' opinions.

2. To be clear, the family indicates they were not given a choice at the time of brain death, they were told they could not choose. They are unsure what they would have decided, but clearly expressed frustration that they were not allowed to make the choice. Furthermore the fetus has fluid on the brain and the family has expressed concern about the fetus' health.

You seem to avoid answering the actual questions posed though. So am I correct to infer that outside of this case, you DO believe a woman who even has an advance directive against being sustained in a brain dead state, should have her choices overriden by the state? You personally agree with the law as written, and applying it regardless of age of fetus? Answer directly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posters are the (fortunately rare) “celebrate your abortion!” crowd. They are not representative of nearly all of the US.

Not a single person said that.

If you don’t get why it is ghoulish to keep a woman’s dead body alive to gestate a likely severely disabled child (who will not be supported by the lawmakers who forced this) … don’t know what to say.

Most Americans who hear this story, aside from abortion fanatics, will believe that the mother would have done anything she could to keep her baby alive. They just are not going to see this as something the mother would not have wanted, because most mothers would do anything to protect their babies.

DCUM is an extreme outlier on abortion sentiment and has historically been unable to self-comprehend that fact.

From 9 weeks???? No way. That is your warped assumption. Also she was an RN so even less likely she would choose this, medical professionals are leas likely to choose extreme long term interventions, especially when those interventions harm the developing fetus.

-RN

Look, I don’t know what to tell you. You are just wrong and out of touch.

Ah well that settles it.

Are you taking the position that DCUM has been consistently in line with the position of most American voters when it comes to abortion? The shock and gnashing of teeth after the last election—which was entirely predictable outside the DCUM bubble—shows how wrong you are.

Most voters don’t view abortion and abortion rights the same way DCUM does. They are uncomfortable with it at best. I am deeply skeptical that DCUMs general posture on this case is anything other than a far extreme.

you are so out of touch with current national polling on abortion opinion, it is laughable. JFC, google is your friend.

Odd. We were confidently told repeatedly here, in the weeks leading up to the election, that DCUM’s position on abortion was correct, reflected by the voters, and would easily decide the election for Harris.

You think everyone who voted for Trump is also anti abortion for major medical events? Ok.

But sure ignore polling.

Can you show me the polling that shows that most Americans disagree with what has happened here, and would want her to be allowed to die?

Look, I am not actually in support of this. I think, in this case, her family has expressed her wishes, and she should be allowed to pass, given the age of the fetus in particular. But I recognize that it’s not at all clear that most Americans feel the same way, and in fact many of them would take the position that the brain dead mother would in fact want whatever chance at life her baby could get. This is what I’m frustrated about, because DCUM is so far off the mainstream and is continually surprised by that where it matters (elections). I am not at all clear that most Americans think anything wrong has happened here at all, and certainly do not view this in the apocalyptic language of DCUM (“biological material,” “incubator,” etc.).

I would like the US to return to “safe, legal, and rare,” but I don’t think we will ever get there at this rate, because the opposition sounds so outright crazy.

the fact is, this is such a ghoulish and unusual circumstance that most Americans have no correct frame of reference. If you envision it as the mom peacefully on a respirator for two weeks until the viable baby reaches 33 weeks, then sure. But this case is keeping the mother’s body alive through repeated infections, limbs seizing up, pressure sores, to gestate a severely disabled fetus.

How do you know this as fact? Has it been verified?

The relatives have been quoted as saying that the fetus is not doing well.

The only other cases where this has gone on so long involved constant infections for the mother and one high profile one, a severely deformed fetus.

To believe you can easily keep a brain dead body alive for months doing some thing as physiologically complex as gestation is a fantasy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Marlise_Mu%C3%B1oz

So you made it up. Thanks for confirming.

[Anonymous]

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/brain-dead-georgia-woman-kept-life-support-due-states-abortion-law

In the meantime the family is trying to care for her 7 year old son.

And they are probably going to be bankrupted by medical bills.

She had tried multiple times to get medical treatment for he headaches, and was not able to, and as a woman that completely checks out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

dcum is an an anonymous online website.

Why does dcum get to set georgia state law?

What states allow dcum to override their citizen voters and elected officials to set state law? Can you list each state abd the year dcum was granted that right and power?

granny even admitted the family would not remove their loved one from life support.

In general, do you personally believe it is ethically acceptable to sustain a brain dead person against her will and the will of her family for a first trimester fetus?

For state law to supercede a woman's own advance directive for withdrawal of care if she has an advance directive or has otherwise made it clear she would not want to be sustained on a ventilator and suffers an adverse event and is declared brain dead?

I can say unequivocally as an RN who has cared for chronic ventilator patients that if I were pregnant and suffered an adverse event in my first (or second trimester) that I would want to be allowed to die and my fetus to die with me. Do you believe that state law should force me to be maintained for my fetus even if it was not what I wanted?

It doesn’t matter what your opinion is or what my opinion is. The state of GA has laws regarding this situation.

I don’t live in Georgia. Do you? If you do not, as I do not, GA state law has nothing to do with either of us.

My issues are:

1. The family does not want the mother removed from life support

2. anonymous dcum posters are lying about the health of the unborn baby to garner support for their wishes to have the mother taken off child support. Which in itself is weird, because it’s none of their business.

1. Since when are we not allowed to have opinions about other US citizens and state laws that seem unethical? That is weird. about what is allowed in blue states and on a. It is worth noting that state Republican leaders seem to fight state abortion law being set by referendum votes by state resident. So even state politicians do not actually care about their own citizens' opinions.

2. To be clear, the family indicates they were not given a choice at the time of brain death, they were told they could not choose. They are unsure what they would have decided, but clearly expressed frustration that they were not allowed to make the choice. Furthermore the fetus has fluid on the brain and the family has expressed concern about the fetus' health.

You seem to avoid answering the actual questions posed though. So am I correct to infer that outside of this case, you DO believe a woman who even has an advance directive against being sustained in a brain dead state, should have her choices overriden by the state? You personally agree with the law as written, and applying it regardless of age of fetus? Answer directly.

It is pretty clear from their avoidance of the question that they believe this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posters are the (fortunately rare) “celebrate your abortion!” crowd. They are not representative of nearly all of the US.

Not a single person said that.

If you don’t get why it is ghoulish to keep a woman’s dead body alive to gestate a likely severely disabled child (who will not be supported by the lawmakers who forced this) … don’t know what to say.

Most Americans who hear this story, aside from abortion fanatics, will believe that the mother would have done anything she could to keep her baby alive. They just are not going to see this as something the mother would not have wanted, because most mothers would do anything to protect their babies.

DCUM is an extreme outlier on abortion sentiment and has historically been unable to self-comprehend that fact.

From 9 weeks???? No way. That is your warped assumption. Also she was an RN so even less likely she would choose this, medical professionals are leas likely to choose extreme long term interventions, especially when those interventions harm the developing fetus.

-RN

Look, I don’t know what to tell you. You are just wrong and out of touch.

Ah well that settles it.

Are you taking the position that DCUM has been consistently in line with the position of most American voters when it comes to abortion? The shock and gnashing of teeth after the last election—which was entirely predictable outside the DCUM bubble—shows how wrong you are.

Most voters don’t view abortion and abortion rights the same way DCUM does. They are uncomfortable with it at best. I am deeply skeptical that DCUMs general posture on this case is anything other than a far extreme.

you are so out of touch with current national polling on abortion opinion, it is laughable. JFC, google is your friend.

Odd. We were confidently told repeatedly here, in the weeks leading up to the election, that DCUM’s position on abortion was correct, reflected by the voters, and would easily decide the election for Harris.

You think everyone who voted for Trump is also anti abortion for major medical events? Ok.

But sure ignore polling.

Can you show me the polling that shows that most Americans disagree with what has happened here, and would want her to be allowed to die?

Look, I am not actually in support of this. I think, in this case, her family has expressed her wishes, and she should be allowed to pass, given the age of the fetus in particular. But I recognize that it’s not at all clear that most Americans feel the same way, and in fact many of them would take the position that the brain dead mother would in fact want whatever chance at life her baby could get. This is what I’m frustrated about, because DCUM is so far off the mainstream and is continually surprised by that where it matters (elections). I am not at all clear that most Americans think anything wrong has happened here at all, and certainly do not view this in the apocalyptic language of DCUM (“biological material,” “incubator,” etc.).

I would like the US to return to “safe, legal, and rare,” but I don’t think we will ever get there at this rate, because the opposition sounds so outright crazy.

the fact is, this is such a ghoulish and unusual circumstance that most Americans have no correct frame of reference. If you envision it as the mom peacefully on a respirator for two weeks until the viable baby reaches 33 weeks, then sure. But this case is keeping the mother’s body alive through repeated infections, limbs seizing up, pressure sores, to gestate a severely disabled fetus.

How do you know this as fact? Has it been verified?

The relatives have been quoted as saying that the fetus is not doing well.

The only other cases where this has gone on so long involved constant infections for the mother and one high profile one, a severely deformed fetus.

To believe you can easily keep a brain dead body alive for months doing some thing as physiologically complex as gestation is a fantasy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Marlise_Mu%C3%B1oz

Provide a link to the relatives saying the baby “isn’t doing well.”

You can’t, because you are a liar.

This has been cited extensively in the press. You’re not a liar but you are an evil ghoul who hates actual babies but loves doomed fetuses gestating in corpses against the wishes of their relatives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/brain-dead-georgia-woman-kept-life-support-due-states-abortion-law

In the meantime the family is trying to care for her 7 year old son.

And they are probably going to be bankrupted by medical bills.

She had tried multiple times to get medical treatment for he headaches, and was not able to, and as a woman that completely checks out.

That’s a big issue. She sought care several times and received no diagnostic testing, and now she is brain dead. That’s unacceptable and beyond tragic. She should have received care and should be alive. She is a woman of color, and that was not in her favor when seeking medical care for her health condition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posters are the (fortunately rare) “celebrate your abortion!” crowd. They are not representative of nearly all of the US.

Not a single person said that.

If you don’t get why it is ghoulish to keep a woman’s dead body alive to gestate a likely severely disabled child (who will not be supported by the lawmakers who forced this) … don’t know what to say.

Most Americans who hear this story, aside from abortion fanatics, will believe that the mother would have done anything she could to keep her baby alive. They just are not going to see this as something the mother would not have wanted, because most mothers would do anything to protect their babies.

DCUM is an extreme outlier on abortion sentiment and has historically been unable to self-comprehend that fact.

From 9 weeks???? No way. That is your warped assumption. Also she was an RN so even less likely she would choose this, medical professionals are leas likely to choose extreme long term interventions, especially when those interventions harm the developing fetus.

-RN

Look, I don’t know what to tell you. You are just wrong and out of touch.

Ah well that settles it.

Are you taking the position that DCUM has been consistently in line with the position of most American voters when it comes to abortion? The shock and gnashing of teeth after the last election—which was entirely predictable outside the DCUM bubble—shows how wrong you are.

Most voters don’t view abortion and abortion rights the same way DCUM does. They are uncomfortable with it at best. I am deeply skeptical that DCUMs general posture on this case is anything other than a far extreme.

you are so out of touch with current national polling on abortion opinion, it is laughable. JFC, google is your friend.

Odd. We were confidently told repeatedly here, in the weeks leading up to the election, that DCUM’s position on abortion was correct, reflected by the voters, and would easily decide the election for Harris.

You think everyone who voted for Trump is also anti abortion for major medical events? Ok.

But sure ignore polling.

Can you show me the polling that shows that most Americans disagree with what has happened here, and would want her to be allowed to die?

Look, I am not actually in support of this. I think, in this case, her family has expressed her wishes, and she should be allowed to pass, given the age of the fetus in particular. But I recognize that it’s not at all clear that most Americans feel the same way, and in fact many of them would take the position that the brain dead mother would in fact want whatever chance at life her baby could get. This is what I’m frustrated about, because DCUM is so far off the mainstream and is continually surprised by that where it matters (elections). I am not at all clear that most Americans think anything wrong has happened here at all, and certainly do not view this in the apocalyptic language of DCUM (“biological material,” “incubator,” etc.).

I would like the US to return to “safe, legal, and rare,” but I don’t think we will ever get there at this rate, because the opposition sounds so outright crazy.

the fact is, this is such a ghoulish and unusual circumstance that most Americans have no correct frame of reference. If you envision it as the mom peacefully on a respirator for two weeks until the viable baby reaches 33 weeks, then sure. But this case is keeping the mother’s body alive through repeated infections, limbs seizing up, pressure sores, to gestate a severely disabled fetus.

How do you know this as fact? Has it been verified?

The relatives have been quoted as saying that the fetus is not doing well.

The only other cases where this has gone on so long involved constant infections for the mother and one high profile one, a severely deformed fetus.

To believe you can easily keep a brain dead body alive for months doing some thing as physiologically complex as gestation is a fantasy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Marlise_Mu%C3%B1oz

Provide a link to the relatives saying the baby “isn’t doing well.”

You can’t, because you are a liar.

This has been cited extensively in the press. You’re not a liar but you are an evil ghoul who hates actual babies but loves doomed fetuses gestating in corpses against the wishes of their relatives.

So post the extensive evidence that the press has published regarding the baby’s health, with links. I dare you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lies told thus far in this thread about this case:

baby is blind: no facts, evidence, links
family wants mother taken off life support: no facts, evidence, links
baby is disabled: no facts, evidence, links

This is the only blurb published by multiple news sources:


“Smith's family, including her five-year-old son, still visit her in the hospital.

Newkirk told WXIA that doctors told the family that the fetus has fluid on the brain and that they're concerned about his health.

"She's pregnant with my grandson. But he may be blind, may not be able to walk, may not survive once he's born," Newkirk said. She has not said whether the family wants Smith removed from life support.”

But the democrats here take short breaks from calling Trump/republicans amoral liars in other threads to lie in this thread.

Lie about an unborn baby. Let that sink in.

Yeah you only think this is a lie because you have a demented believe that any claims of the dangers and risks of childbirth are fake lies by baby killers that have abortions so the pregnancy doesn’t get in the way of their pedicure appointment.

Meanwhile people who can actually read and understand reproduction and the care of the brain dead understand that this is an awful situation that torments the dead woman and is not likely to lead to a healthy baby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

dcum is an an anonymous online website.

Why does dcum get to set georgia state law?

What states allow dcum to override their citizen voters and elected officials to set state law? Can you list each state abd the year dcum was granted that right and power?

granny even admitted the family would not remove their loved one from life support.

Are you drunk?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I’m not saying that we would have chose to terminate her pregnancy, but what I’m saying is, we should have had a choice,” she said."

So the family doesn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. Why does dcum want to do so?

DCUM wants the family to be able to choose. I take it you do not?

dcum is an an anonymous online website.

Why does dcum get to set georgia state law?

What states allow dcum to override their citizen voters and elected officials to set state law? Can you list each state abd the year dcum was granted that right and power?

granny even admitted the family would not remove their loved one from life support.

In general, do you personally believe it is ethically acceptable to sustain a brain dead person against her will and the will of her family for a first trimester fetus?

For state law to supercede a woman's own advance directive for withdrawal of care if she has an advance directive or has otherwise made it clear she would not want to be sustained on a ventilator and suffers an adverse event and is declared brain dead?

I can say unequivocally as an RN who has cared for chronic ventilator patients that if I were pregnant and suffered an adverse event in my first (or second trimester) that I would want to be allowed to die and my fetus to die with me. Do you believe that state law should force me to be maintained for my fetus even if it was not what I wanted?

It doesn’t matter what your opinion is or what my opinion is. The state of GA has laws regarding this situation.

I don’t live in Georgia. Do you? If you do not, as I do not, GA state law has nothing to do with either of us.

My issues are:

1. The family does not want the mother removed from life support

2. anonymous dcum posters are lying about the health of the unborn baby to garner support for their wishes to have the mother taken off child support. Which in itself is weird, because it’s none of their business.

How can you claim people are lying when multiple people have posted direct quotes about the fetus?

You pro forced birthers are all the same - cannot accept the reality of the torment you cause and can only claim people are lying.