WSJ - To Increase Equity, School Districts Eliminate Honors Classes

[Anonymous]

I for one think it's great that MCPS is raising the expectations for ALL STUDENTS by requiring everyone to perform at a higher level with this honors for all initiative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Is that the same “ bell curve of intelligence “ that was used as an excuse to admit mediocre white boys to Harvard purely because their parents where rich ? If so that’s total bull and admitting poor Black and Hispanic kids of equal drive and intelligence in their place to so called elite programme won’t do zip to the overall rigor.

DP. I totally agree with you. The destruction of honors/gifted harms poor kids the most. In DC, even the highest needs elementary schools have 5-10 kids who score high on the PARCC despite all their challenges. It is honestly criminal not to scoop up those kids and put them in a gifted program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I for one think it's great that MCPS is raising the expectations for ALL STUDENTS by requiring everyone to perform at a higher level with this honors for all initiative.

So MCPS is going to start giving out Fs? Lol no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many UMC kids:
Get tutored material “ above grade level”
Get good teacher recommendations due to bias

There is already a hidden unsaid shadow education system that advantages the privileged. “ honours for all” to me will just give all kids the same privileges as what used to be only available to those with pushy UMC parents without inherent loss of rigor.

If you claim that UMC are getting into "honors" and advanced classes because they are tutored, then that would mean that those classes are difficult. If they are that difficult such that UMC need to be tutored to get an A, are you saying that non UMC who aren't tutored are able to get good grades in honors and advanced classes without tutoring? So, they are actually way smarter than UMC students because they don't need tutors but UMC kids do?

LOL

I am asking what’s the difference between a UMC parent sending their on grade level child to extra tutoring to expose them to advanced material and an honors program admitting all on grade level children? I am saying that the gatekeeping is unnecessary.

Open schools all year round and tell parents that they have all 52 weeks of the year to complete the old “one semester” long course. That way those that need remediation can get it and the more advanced kids have time for extra ECs / vacation

1. tutoring to expose kids to advanced material doesn't go on the student's transcript. Also, there are free tutoring services in MCPS. The problem is .. you can't force a student to get tutored even if the services are free.
2. No one said to have gatekeeping for honors classes, rather the opposite. If a student *wants* to challenge themselves and take advanced classes, they should be able to do so but without all the up lift support. This is HS we are talking about.

What people are saying is that MCPS shouldn't get rid of on track classes and force all kids to honors classes. If they kept the material as is for honors classes, too many would fail especially kids of certain groups. That would look bad. Have you seen the test scores of these certain groups? The tests aren't even advanced. They are created to test on grade level material. The scores look bad for certain groups, so MCPS dumbs down the honors classes, implements the 50% rule, test retakes, so at least the passing grade doesn't look too bad

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

Evidence?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many UMC kids:
Get tutored material “ above grade level”
Get good teacher recommendations due to bias

There is already a hidden unsaid shadow education system that advantages the privileged. “ honours for all” to me will just give all kids the same privileges as what used to be only available to those with pushy UMC parents without inherent loss of rigor.

If you claim that UMC are getting into "honors" and advanced classes because they are tutored, then that would mean that those classes are difficult. If they are that difficult such that UMC need to be tutored to get an A, are you saying that non UMC who aren't tutored are able to get good grades in honors and advanced classes without tutoring? So, they are actually way smarter than UMC students because they don't need tutors but UMC kids do?

LOL

I am asking what’s the difference between a UMC parent sending their on grade level child to extra tutoring to expose them to advanced material and an honors program admitting all on grade level children? I am saying that the gatekeeping is unnecessary.

Open schools all year round and tell parents that they have all 52 weeks of the year to complete the old “one semester” long course. That way those that need remediation can get it and the more advanced kids have time for extra ECs / vacation

1. tutoring to expose kids to advanced material doesn't go on the student's transcript. Also, there are free tutoring services in MCPS. The problem is .. you can't force a student to get tutored even if the services are free.
2. No one said to have gatekeeping for honors classes, rather the opposite. If a student *wants* to challenge themselves and take advanced classes, they should be able to do so but without all the up lift support. This is HS we are talking about.

What people are saying is that MCPS shouldn't get rid of on track classes and force all kids to honors classes. If they kept the material as is for honors classes, too many would fail especially kids of certain groups. That would look bad. Have you seen the test scores of these certain groups? The tests aren't even advanced. They are created to test on grade level material. The scores look bad for certain groups, so MCPS dumbs down the honors classes, implements the 50% rule, test retakes, so at least the passing grade doesn't look too bad

They're providing honors for all and raising everyone up. This is great! I don't know why people assume the worst, especially without evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many UMC kids:
Get tutored material “ above grade level”
Get good teacher recommendations due to bias

There is already a hidden unsaid shadow education system that advantages the privileged. “ honours for all” to me will just give all kids the same privileges as what used to be only available to those with pushy UMC parents without inherent loss of rigor.

If you claim that UMC are getting into "honors" and advanced classes because they are tutored, then that would mean that those classes are difficult. If they are that difficult such that UMC need to be tutored to get an A, are you saying that non UMC who aren't tutored are able to get good grades in honors and advanced classes without tutoring? So, they are actually way smarter than UMC students because they don't need tutors but UMC kids do?

LOL

I am asking what’s the difference between a UMC parent sending their on grade level child to extra tutoring to expose them to advanced material and an honors program admitting all on grade level children? I am saying that the gatekeeping is unnecessary.

Open schools all year round and tell parents that they have all 52 weeks of the year to complete the old “one semester” long course. That way those that need remediation can get it and the more advanced kids have time for extra ECs / vacation

1. tutoring to expose kids to advanced material doesn't go on the student's transcript. Also, there are free tutoring services in MCPS. The problem is .. you can't force a student to get tutored even if the services are free.
2. No one said to have gatekeeping for honors classes, rather the opposite. If a student *wants* to challenge themselves and take advanced classes, they should be able to do so but without all the up lift support. This is HS we are talking about.

What people are saying is that MCPS shouldn't get rid of on track classes and force all kids to honors classes. If they kept the material as is for honors classes, too many would fail especially kids of certain groups. That would look bad. Have you seen the test scores of these certain groups? The tests aren't even advanced. They are created to test on grade level material. The scores look bad for certain groups, so MCPS dumbs down the honors classes, implements the 50% rule, test retakes, so at least the passing grade doesn't look too bad

They're providing honors for all and raising everyone up. This is great! I don't know why people assume the worst, especially without evidence.

The evidence is in the tests that MCPS gives out.

Prior to the pandemic and virtual learning, less than 40% of certain groups were proficient in ELA in 10th grade, and less than 20% passed the Algebra test, but you think these students are ready for more advanced classes?

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/OLO/Resources/Files/2019%20Reports/OLOReport2019-14.pdf

VL made the gap even wider.

I don't know why some people refuse to believe that some students aren't ready for more advanced classes. Even MCPS acknowledges the wide achievement gap. So, how does it make sense to then push these under performing students to more advanced classes? In many MCPS HS, there are only honors classes, but the achievement gap still persists.

So, by your logic, raising everyone up should close the achievement gap, right? But it's not. It's just making that gap wider.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

Nah, that's what they say on paper. In reality, how this turns out is that they have to expend massive amounts of resources on students of average or low intelligence in these classes, or on students that need tons of remedial work. Raising the floor drags down classes, because floors shouldn't have to raised in *honors* classes in the first place. Then they demand honors courses to be watered down because someone, somewhere will inevitably find some group that gets left in the dust when they're taking classes they shouldn't be in. You can't have a specific group failing out more than others, because that wouldn't be 'equality'. Thus in the end, everything goes to crap, because they cater constantly to the lowest performers and use 'equality' to justify it.

I guess equity will be achieved when we are all equally mediocre and/or poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many UMC kids:
Get tutored material “ above grade level”
Get good teacher recommendations due to bias

There is already a hidden unsaid shadow education system that advantages the privileged. “ honours for all” to me will just give all kids the same privileges as what used to be only available to those with pushy UMC parents without inherent loss of rigor.

If you claim that UMC are getting into "honors" and advanced classes because they are tutored, then that would mean that those classes are difficult. If they are that difficult such that UMC need to be tutored to get an A, are you saying that non UMC who aren't tutored are able to get good grades in honors and advanced classes without tutoring? So, they are actually way smarter than UMC students because they don't need tutors but UMC kids do?

LOL

I am asking what’s the difference between a UMC parent sending their on grade level child to extra tutoring to expose them to advanced material and an honors program admitting all on grade level children? I am saying that the gatekeeping is unnecessary.

Open schools all year round and tell parents that they have all 52 weeks of the year to complete the old “one semester” long course. That way those that need remediation can get it and the more advanced kids have time for extra ECs / vacation

1. tutoring to expose kids to advanced material doesn't go on the student's transcript. Also, there are free tutoring services in MCPS. The problem is .. you can't force a student to get tutored even if the services are free.
2. No one said to have gatekeeping for honors classes, rather the opposite. If a student *wants* to challenge themselves and take advanced classes, they should be able to do so but without all the up lift support. This is HS we are talking about.

What people are saying is that MCPS shouldn't get rid of on track classes and force all kids to honors classes. If they kept the material as is for honors classes, too many would fail especially kids of certain groups. That would look bad. Have you seen the test scores of these certain groups? The tests aren't even advanced. They are created to test on grade level material. The scores look bad for certain groups, so MCPS dumbs down the honors classes, implements the 50% rule, test retakes, so at least the passing grade doesn't look too bad

They're providing honors for all and raising everyone up. This is great! I don't know why people assume the worst, especially without evidence.

The evidence is in the tests that MCPS gives out.

Prior to the pandemic and virtual learning, less than 40% of certain groups were proficient in ELA in 10th grade, and less than 20% passed the Algebra test, but you think these students are ready for more advanced classes?

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/OLO/Resources/Files/2019%20Reports/OLOReport2019-14.pdf

VL made the gap even wider.

I don't know why some people refuse to believe that some students aren't ready for more advanced classes. Even MCPS acknowledges the wide achievement gap. So, how does it make sense to then push these under performing students to more advanced classes? In many MCPS HS, there are only honors classes, but the achievement gap still persists.

So, by your logic, raising everyone up should close the achievement gap, right? But it's not. It's just making that gap wider.

MCAP is hardly credible. It's a flawed test that has never been widely used.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

Nah, that's what they say on paper. In reality, how this turns out is that they have to expend massive amounts of resources on students of average or low intelligence in these classes, or on students that need tons of remedial work. Raising the floor drags down classes, because floors shouldn't have to raised in *honors* classes in the first place. Then they demand honors courses to be watered down because someone, somewhere will inevitably find some group that gets left in the dust when they're taking classes they shouldn't be in. You can't have a specific group failing out more than others, because that wouldn't be 'equality'. Thus in the end, everything goes to crap, because they cater constantly to the lowest performers and use 'equality' to justify it.

I guess equity will be achieved when we are all equally mediocre and/or poor.

Fortunately, MCPS is approach is to raise everyone up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Is that the same “ bell curve of intelligence “ that was used as an excuse to admit mediocre white boys to Harvard purely because their parents where rich ? If so that’s total bull and admitting poor Black and Hispanic kids of equal drive and intelligence in their place to so called elite programme won’t do zip to the overall rigor.

DP. I totally agree with you. The destruction of honors/gifted harms poor kids the most. In DC, even the highest needs elementary schools have 5-10 kids who score high on the PARCC despite all their challenges. It is honestly criminal not to scoop up those kids and put them in a gifted program.

Agreed. But Those slots frequently go to kids who are already in good schools. They just get to go to better schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many UMC kids:
Get tutored material “ above grade level”
Get good teacher recommendations due to bias

There is already a hidden unsaid shadow education system that advantages the privileged. “ honours for all” to me will just give all kids the same privileges as what used to be only available to those with pushy UMC parents without inherent loss of rigor.

If you claim that UMC are getting into "honors" and advanced classes because they are tutored, then that would mean that those classes are difficult. If they are that difficult such that UMC need to be tutored to get an A, are you saying that non UMC who aren't tutored are able to get good grades in honors and advanced classes without tutoring? So, they are actually way smarter than UMC students because they don't need tutors but UMC kids do?

LOL

I am asking what’s the difference between a UMC parent sending their on grade level child to extra tutoring to expose them to advanced material and an honors program admitting all on grade level children? I am saying that the gatekeeping is unnecessary.

Open schools all year round and tell parents that they have all 52 weeks of the year to complete the old “one semester” long course. That way those that need remediation can get it and the more advanced kids have time for extra ECs / vacation

1. tutoring to expose kids to advanced material doesn't go on the student's transcript. Also, there are free tutoring services in MCPS. The problem is .. you can't force a student to get tutored even if the services are free.
2. No one said to have gatekeeping for honors classes, rather the opposite. If a student *wants* to challenge themselves and take advanced classes, they should be able to do so but without all the up lift support. This is HS we are talking about.

What people are saying is that MCPS shouldn't get rid of on track classes and force all kids to honors classes. If they kept the material as is for honors classes, too many would fail especially kids of certain groups. That would look bad. Have you seen the test scores of these certain groups? The tests aren't even advanced. They are created to test on grade level material. The scores look bad for certain groups, so MCPS dumbs down the honors classes, implements the 50% rule, test retakes, so at least the passing grade doesn't look too bad

They're providing honors for all and raising everyone up. This is great! I don't know why people assume the worst, especially without evidence.

The evidence is in the tests that MCPS gives out.

Prior to the pandemic and virtual learning, less than 40% of certain groups were proficient in ELA in 10th grade, and less than 20% passed the Algebra test, but you think these students are ready for more advanced classes?

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/OLO/Resources/Files/2019%20Reports/OLOReport2019-14.pdf

VL made the gap even wider.

I don't know why some people refuse to believe that some students aren't ready for more advanced classes. Even MCPS acknowledges the wide achievement gap. So, how does it make sense to then push these under performing students to more advanced classes? In many MCPS HS, there are only honors classes, but the achievement gap still persists.

So, by your logic, raising everyone up should close the achievement gap, right? But it's not. It's just making that gap wider.

MCAP is hardly credible. It's a flawed test that has never been widely used.

MCPS's own evidence of learning data shows that its students proficiency in math and reading are way behind. Stop trying to act like this isn't an issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many UMC kids:
Get tutored material “ above grade level”
Get good teacher recommendations due to bias

There is already a hidden unsaid shadow education system that advantages the privileged. “ honours for all” to me will just give all kids the same privileges as what used to be only available to those with pushy UMC parents without inherent loss of rigor.

If you claim that UMC are getting into "honors" and advanced classes because they are tutored, then that would mean that those classes are difficult. If they are that difficult such that UMC need to be tutored to get an A, are you saying that non UMC who aren't tutored are able to get good grades in honors and advanced classes without tutoring? So, they are actually way smarter than UMC students because they don't need tutors but UMC kids do?

LOL

I am asking what’s the difference between a UMC parent sending their on grade level child to extra tutoring to expose them to advanced material and an honors program admitting all on grade level children? I am saying that the gatekeeping is unnecessary.

Open schools all year round and tell parents that they have all 52 weeks of the year to complete the old “one semester” long course. That way those that need remediation can get it and the more advanced kids have time for extra ECs / vacation

1. tutoring to expose kids to advanced material doesn't go on the student's transcript. Also, there are free tutoring services in MCPS. The problem is .. you can't force a student to get tutored even if the services are free.
2. No one said to have gatekeeping for honors classes, rather the opposite. If a student *wants* to challenge themselves and take advanced classes, they should be able to do so but without all the up lift support. This is HS we are talking about.

What people are saying is that MCPS shouldn't get rid of on track classes and force all kids to honors classes. If they kept the material as is for honors classes, too many would fail especially kids of certain groups. That would look bad. Have you seen the test scores of these certain groups? The tests aren't even advanced. They are created to test on grade level material. The scores look bad for certain groups, so MCPS dumbs down the honors classes, implements the 50% rule, test retakes, so at least the passing grade doesn't look too bad

They're providing honors for all and raising everyone up. This is great! I don't know why people assume the worst, especially without evidence.

The evidence is in the tests that MCPS gives out.

Prior to the pandemic and virtual learning, less than 40% of certain groups were proficient in ELA in 10th grade, and less than 20% passed the Algebra test, but you think these students are ready for more advanced classes?

https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/OLO/Resources/Files/2019%20Reports/OLOReport2019-14.pdf

VL made the gap even wider.

I don't know why some people refuse to believe that some students aren't ready for more advanced classes. Even MCPS acknowledges the wide achievement gap. So, how does it make sense to then push these under performing students to more advanced classes? In many MCPS HS, there are only honors classes, but the achievement gap still persists.

So, by your logic, raising everyone up should close the achievement gap, right? But it's not. It's just making that gap wider.

MCAP is hardly credible. It's a flawed test that has never been widely used.

I see. so, MCAP is not credible, GPAs are inflated, SATs are about prepping... so what is a good metric? If MCAP is so flawed why does MCPS use that to determine the achievement gap? Or are you saying that there is no achievement gap?