WSJ - To Increase Equity, School Districts Eliminate Honors Classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Article from WSJ today. Too bad for the schools doing this,


https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increase-equity-school-districts-eliminate-honors-classes-d5985dee

Instead of eliminating honors which is the national trend, MCPS is doing the opposite and raising the bar by requiring honors for all.

Except they're not raising the bar. They're diluting the rigor in the name of honors for all.

Is there any evidence to this effect or is it just your assumption?

DP.. have you looked at the scores of certain segments of the MCPS student population? A lot of those kids are in "honors" classes because a lot of the HS no longer have on track classes.

There is so much grade inflation, 50% rule, retake of exams, it's hard not to get bad grades, but still, some do.

The 50% rule is hardly a concern. I'm fine with it because some kid might get a C- instead of D+. I'm also fine with retakes since the point is learning, not punishment. In the end, if students learn more then MCPS is doing its job well. Further, none of this has anything to do with expecting all students to meet a higher standard by offering honors for all.

This. I don't see any problems with expecting all students to meet a higher standard, especially English, the national language of the country.

The United State of America has never had a national language. You can argue that it should - but please don't argue that it has because it doesn't.

It is not the OFFICIAL language but it is the national language

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Is that the same “ bell curve of intelligence “ that was used as an excuse to admit mediocre white boys to Harvard purely because their parents where rich ? If so that’s total bull and admitting poor Black and Hispanic kids of equal drive and intelligence in their place to so called elite programme won’t do zip to the overall rigor.

DP. I totally agree with you. The destruction of honors/gifted harms poor kids the most. In DC, even the highest needs elementary schools have 5-10 kids who score high on the PARCC despite all their challenges. It is honestly criminal not to scoop up those kids and put them in a gifted program.

Agreed. But Those slots frequently go to kids who are already in good schools. They just get to go to better schools.

For CES and MS, they now use "peer cohort", so those few kids in not high achieving schools would actually get those spots.

By HS, there are various magnet programs, and most are in the eastern side of the county. I'm fairly certain that MCPS would scoop up such kids there for a spot at a magnet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Article from WSJ today. Too bad for the schools doing this,


https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increase-equity-school-districts-eliminate-honors-classes-d5985dee

Instead of eliminating honors which is the national trend, MCPS is doing the opposite and raising the bar by requiring honors for all.

Except they're not raising the bar. They're diluting the rigor in the name of honors for all.

Is there any evidence to this effect or is it just your assumption?

DP.. have you looked at the scores of certain segments of the MCPS student population? A lot of those kids are in "honors" classes because a lot of the HS no longer have on track classes.

There is so much grade inflation, 50% rule, retake of exams, it's hard not to get bad grades, but still, some do.

The 50% rule is hardly a concern. I'm fine with it because some kid might get a C- instead of D+. I'm also fine with retakes since the point is learning, not punishment. In the end, if students learn more then MCPS is doing its job well. Further, none of this has anything to do with expecting all students to meet a higher standard by offering honors for all.

This. I don't see any problems with expecting all students to meet a higher standard, especially English, the national language of the country.

There is no national language in the United States. Just FYI.

There is no OFFICIAL language but English is the language spoken nationally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

That's not true. They're raising the standards and expecting more of everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

I get this is the narrative you guys want to buy into but it isn't at all what MCPS is doing. You're just making all these assumptions without any evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

Evidence?

I present to you MCPS own Evidence of Learning data dashboard: https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/data/LAR-charts/Evidence-of-Learning-Grade11.html

With 71% of all student meeting the on-level requirements for literacy and only 60% meeting the requirements for on-level math, I can assure that it's not possible they're passing and thriving in a truly rigorous "honors" class if their school has adopted an honors for all model.

In fact, you can drill down to Kennedy, which has had an honors for all model since 2017 and see the data:

64% met the watermark for literacy in 2022
40% met the watermark for math in 2022

And yet, I bet you 60% of kids are not getting D's or E's on their report cards in math, nor are 36% getting D's or E's in their English and History classes.

There's the evidence you need to know that honors-for-all does not result in anything that looks like raising the bar and uplifting the performance of students in any way, shape or form.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

I get this is the narrative you guys want to buy into but it isn't at all what MCPS is doing. You're just making all these assumptions without any evidence.

You keep saying there's no evidence. The evidence is in MCPS's Evidence of Learning data.

This data is so bad the NAACP and the Black and Brown Coalition have sounded the alarm on how far behind black and brown kids are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

Evidence?

First, common sense. How can it possibly be that a teacher could teach kids at extremely different ends of the spectrum? Take a simple example - an English writing assignment. Some kids could analyze a text and write a 5-page essay. Kids who are failing the state exams couldn't. So the only option is to "differentiate" by having harder and easier assignments in the same class -- which is basically tracking by any other name except less effective.

Second, evidence. There is meaningful research showing that detracking can hurt those it purports to help. "The most surprising finding of the analysis was that students from disadvantaged backgrounds appeared to benefit from tracking. Figlio and Page concluded, “We can find no evidence that detracking America’s schools, as is currently in vogue, will improve outcomes among disadvantaged students. This trend may instead harm the very students that detracking is intended to help” (p. 29)." https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2021/10/04/does-detracking-promote-educational-equity/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Article from WSJ today. Too bad for the schools doing this,


https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increase-equity-school-districts-eliminate-honors-classes-d5985dee

Instead of eliminating honors which is the national trend, MCPS is doing the opposite and raising the bar by requiring honors for all.

Except they're not raising the bar. They're diluting the rigor in the name of honors for all.

Is there any evidence to this effect or is it just your assumption?

DP.. have you looked at the scores of certain segments of the MCPS student population? A lot of those kids are in "honors" classes because a lot of the HS no longer have on track classes.

There is so much grade inflation, 50% rule, retake of exams, it's hard not to get bad grades, but still, some do.

The 50% rule is hardly a concern. I'm fine with it because some kid might get a C- instead of D+. I'm also fine with retakes since the point is learning, not punishment. In the end, if students learn more then MCPS is doing its job well. Further, none of this has anything to do with expecting all students to meet a higher standard by offering honors for all.

This. I don't see any problems with expecting all students to meet a higher standard, especially English, the national language of the country.

There is no national language in the United States. Just FYI.

There is no OFFICIAL language but English is the language spoken nationally.

Omg, shut up. The language of use for everything of importance in the United States is English, period. We do not need national policy to state the obvious. Education needs to use one standard language for everything, which is English for good reason.

Whether you like it or not, English is the de facto standard for alllllll STEM. Even the Chinese publish their best research in English, because English is the most important language for the science and mathematics. The vast majority of the Internet is written in English. English absolutely 100000% should be the only language in which kids are taught in schools, for good reason.

When you have a whole bunch of students in 'honors' classes who do not have fluent ability in English, it is a tremendous drag.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

Evidence?

First, common sense. How can it possibly be that a teacher could teach kids at extremely different ends of the spectrum? Take a simple example - an English writing assignment. Some kids could analyze a text and write a 5-page essay. Kids who are failing the state exams couldn't. So the only option is to "differentiate" by having harder and easier assignments in the same class -- which is basically tracking by any other name except less effective.

Second, evidence. There is meaningful research showing that detracking can hurt those it purports to help. "The most surprising finding of the analysis was that students from disadvantaged backgrounds appeared to benefit from tracking. Figlio and Page concluded, “We can find no evidence that detracking America’s schools, as is currently in vogue, will improve outcomes among disadvantaged students. This trend may instead harm the very students that detracking is intended to help” (p. 29)." https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2021/10/04/does-detracking-promote-educational-equity/

Sure, I get you are invested in believing the worst, but common sense says I should take MCPS at face value.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

I get this is the narrative you guys want to buy into but it isn't at all what MCPS is doing. You're just making all these assumptions without any evidence.

You keep saying there's no evidence. The evidence is in MCPS's Evidence of Learning data.

This data is so bad the NAACP and the Black and Brown Coalition have sounded the alarm on how far behind black and brown kids are.

Raising expectations and requiring honors for all should help!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

Evidence?

First, common sense. How can it possibly be that a teacher could teach kids at extremely different ends of the spectrum? Take a simple example - an English writing assignment. Some kids could analyze a text and write a 5-page essay. Kids who are failing the state exams couldn't. So the only option is to "differentiate" by having harder and easier assignments in the same class -- which is basically tracking by any other name except less effective.

Second, evidence. There is meaningful research showing that detracking can hurt those it purports to help. "The most surprising finding of the analysis was that students from disadvantaged backgrounds appeared to benefit from tracking. Figlio and Page concluded, “We can find no evidence that detracking America’s schools, as is currently in vogue, will improve outcomes among disadvantaged students. This trend may instead harm the very students that detracking is intended to help” (p. 29)." https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2021/10/04/does-detracking-promote-educational-equity/

Sure, I get you are invested in believing the worst, but common sense says I should take MCPS at face value.

Ummm ok. What is MCPS face value?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

I get this is the narrative you guys want to buy into but it isn't at all what MCPS is doing. You're just making all these assumptions without any evidence.

You keep saying there's no evidence. The evidence is in MCPS's Evidence of Learning data.

This data is so bad the NAACP and the Black and Brown Coalition have sounded the alarm on how far behind black and brown kids are.

Raising expectations and requiring honors for all should help!

So should kids who can’t keep up be failed? Truly struggling to understand this.